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Thread: Toyota trials converting car's petrol engine to burn hydrogen

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    Toyota trials converting car's petrol engine to burn hydrogen

    This is an interesting albeit a short read :-

    https://forecourttrader.co.uk/latest...657439.article

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    Hydrogen has to be the way forward. What are the negatives other than it being a tad volatile? Is it difficult/harmful to produce?
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    A tad volatile is understating it. It is the single most combustible gas with the lowest required concentration in air to ignite, plus it's atomically the smallest molecule and virtually impossible to store without leaking. Then there's hydrogen embrittlement over the long term.

    It currently takes more energy to create Hydrogen than you get out of consuming it, which is why people are investigating electrolysers and cracking.

    Hydrogen ICE is A way forward, it's not THE way forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post
    A tad volatile is understating it. It is the single most combustible gas with the lowest required concentration in air to ignite, plus it's atomically the smallest molecule and virtually impossible to store without leaking. Then there's hydrogen embrittlement over the long term.

    It currently takes more energy to create Hydrogen than you get out of consuming it, which is why people are investigating electrolysers and cracking.

    Hydrogen ICE is A way forward, it's not THE way forward.

    Thanks for explaining mate, I’ve got zero understanding of it all and have no experience of electric vehicles either. I need to drive one as I currently have a dislike for them from likely outdated reasons.
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    If electricity is to be the way forward, then we need more projects like this and we need them to be properly funded.

    Compared to nuclear its genuinely clean, reliable and without immeasurable clean up costs on decommissioning.

    http://www.tidallagoonpower.com/projects/swansea-bay/

    The eco-worriers have spiked it as a few fish may get caught up in the turbines in the same way that they said there would be millions of dead birds as a consequence of wind turbines

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    We're a relatively small island in the scheme of things. There's no reason why this cant be done to 90%+ of our coastline.

    It can be done in easy to fund sections and will generate power and income for the relevant funding organisions (pension/investment funds most likely) for years to come.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chriscooke View Post
    Thanks for explaining mate, I’ve got zero understanding of it all and have no experience of electric vehicles either. I need to drive one as I currently have a dislike for them from likely outdated reasons.
    Get someone to give you a boot to 60 in a Model 3 and you'll be on the way to being convinced.

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    I think it’s great that technology is being developed to keep the combustion engine in play! Synthetic fuel could be the way forward as the infrastructure to distribute it is already in place, apparently Porsche are producing a carbon neutral efuel which sounds promising https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2020...els-23021.html

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    I genuinely don't see why vegetable oil isn't taken as a more serious derv replacement,

    Myself and friends have done 10000s miles on it, me in my shogun, discos and hilux, mates in bmws and Peugeot.

    Obviously the new common rail stuff doesn't enjoy it, but if the same kind of development was put into it as other alternatives then it could be a proper solution...

    Plus you know... all the benefits of growing fields full of flowers, helping bees etc etc

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    Apparently Henry Ford intended his model T to run on hemp oil, sadly he was corrupted into running it on diesel as it was far more profitable for oil industry

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    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe View Post
    Obviously the new common rail stuff doesn't enjoy it, but if the same kind of development was put into it as other alternatives then it could be a proper solution...
    Synthetic, carbon zero fuels are under development.

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    I think they will be the next wave after electric.....

    Let's face it, in the 90s very few people owned a diesel, that was reserved for vans and commercials...

    Then audi and bmw mainly pushed the derv engine and they have become very very popular, then all of a sudden, they re the devil and were back to pushing petrol.

    Now electric is stepping up, and I'm sure.when they have the market share the next big thing will come along and drive a new wave of sales, although I would hazard a guess that the massive cost of batteries and thier finite lifespan shall be the main driving force for electric car replacement and profit sustainability in the car industry....

    After all if we really cared about the environment we'd be pushing mass transit systems, and trying remove the 3 cars to every house which seems to be the new normal

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    I don't know if they'll be the next wave, they will just compliment PHEV and MHEV vehicles. But you're right I think, reducing the number of vehicles will do it.

    Interesting you say BEV's have a finite lifespan. Don't all cars?

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    It's a bit more cost effective pop out a bearing or two and add a belt or chain here and there than 5 grands worth of non user serviceable lithium tho....

    I can't help but think the eco mentalist forget about all the nasty shit that goes into building these things..... and what happens to it when it's done with.

    There's an interesting YouTube channel called plainly difficult, which centres on a lot of nuclear waste incidents, and its amazing how even the nastiest shit in the world is soon mis handled and becomes a massive problem once it hits India and other third world dumps to be disposed of, I believe there will be a battery crisis in a decade or so when all the goo is just rinsed down the drain over there.

    I was recently working at one of our counties biggest plastic "recycling" facilities, and by thier own admition it all gets sent to Malaysia to be disposed off and there is no traceability or checking up on it once it leaves on the boat

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    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe View Post
    It's a bit more cost effective pop out a bearing or two and add a belt or chain here and there than 5 grands worth of non user serviceable lithium tho....
    How many new car buyers choose a car because they can change a bearing? Lithium Ion battery packs are not non-serviceable, most are split into modules which are replaceable by nominated and trained dealers. And the aftermarket is already growing to accommodate these service procedures as well.

    The battery recycling industry is expanding and growing at a similar rate to the battery development industry. There's also sizeable progress on batteries that don't require Lithium.

    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe View Post
    I can't help but think the eco mentalist forget about all the nasty shit that goes into building these things..... and what happens to it when it's done with.
    We have been manufacturing cars for around 100 years now, and the move to make significant parts of them recyclable is probably only 15 years old really. Which means that electric cars have been forced to be more recyclable since pretty much their main stream adoption began than ICE cars have for almost a century.
    Last edited by piman2k; 05-10-2021 at 07:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post
    How many new car buyers choose a car because they can change a bearing? Lithium Ion battery packs are not non-serviceable, most are split into modules which are replaceable by nominated and trained dealers. And the aftermarket is already growing to accommodate these service procedures as well.
    nominated and trained dealers, ugh. this might end up with the thread descending into a right to repair argument but how many of us have only had our vehicles serviced by nominated and trained dealers? give over. The vast majority of people who buy used cars don't go to a dealer and you've seen how Tesla has actively restricted people working on their stuff, everyone thought this has been fixed with OBD but there's always a new battle to be fought.

    it's about manufacturer's controlling the product, not sustainability or environmentalism at the heart of that argument, just monopoly nonsense. you're never going to convince the poorer half of the globe to take their EVs to a dealer and you need that level of adoption, worldwide.

    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post
    We have been manufacturing cars for around 100 years now, and the move to make significant parts of them recyclable is probably only 15 years old really. Which means that electric cars have been forced to be more recyclable since pretty much their main stream adoption began than ICE cars have for almost a century.
    I mean, I'd argue the toss on the 15 year thing, it's really a lot longer than that, you'd think scrap yards had never existed before the year 2000.

    I'm all for EVs but I'm not buying one that can only be serviced by the select few the manufacturer deems worthy, it's the same reason I don't buy an iPhone. Hydrogen has it's place, EVs will have their place (though I wasn't chuffed to bits by the 'protect the grid so we can turn off your EV charger that Ofgem/the government recently mandated), I'm sure synthetic fuels will have their place.

    but just as then as it is now, most people won't buy betamax or VHS whilst these arguments are raging, they'll just wait and see, which is sensible on an individual level but may not be at the population level.
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    The electricity network is definitely the biggest limiting factor for EV cars, no matter how anyone adds it up almost every street in the country, and in an unbelievable short sight of planning - most new build sites are even worse than old stuff.... it will be impossible for every house to charge a single car, never mind multiples.

    This is what the smart meter roll out is for... not to save YOU energy, its so the providers will be able to ramp the cost up and make it uneconomical to charge at home. They will most likely bring back peak and off peak tariff, but along side that will increase costs with demand. As they can now remotely monitor and set a point of increase, when you breech say 20A your costs double.



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    Quote Originally Posted by alanjuggler View Post
    The vast majority of people who buy used cars don't go to a dealer and you've seen how Tesla has actively restricted people working on their stuff
    Manufacturers don't make cars for people to buy used. They sell cars and the associated service products. It's the business model. And the idea of being a nominated and trained dealer should not be controversial on an EV, considering the voltage of the vehicle. I concede there's a growing aftermarket, but the training is there for a reason and when people start dying from DIY battery repairs, we may even see legislation take foot.

    Quote Originally Posted by alanjuggler View Post
    I mean, I'd argue the toss on the 15 year thing, it's really a lot longer than that, you'd think scrap yards had never existed before the year 2000
    It's nothing to do with scrap yards, you've actually made my point for me. Scrap yards are not an answer, they are an interim step and for the majority of the existence of cars, they have done (comparatively) only rudimentary recycling of simple materials until the new directives appeared.

    My statement is that there have been a series of directives since the millennium, most notably Directive 2000/53/EC, which mandates a certain percentage of each vehicles components is completely recyclable. This means you will see less and less vehicles spending years in scrap yards, and may components won't even get there in the first place. EV's naturally seek to be on the crest of that wave because they've been subject to these rules for almost their entire development cycle.
    Last edited by piman2k; 07-10-2021 at 07:12.

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    Can't say I'm looking forward to the future,

    The idea of spending 50k plus on a car or 400 a month lease makes me baulk.

    I don't see how for the vast majority of people in the country its an affordable or viable option.

    In stoke on trent most people I know barley break a grand a month, so there's no way they'd be driving if a good second hand market isn't around, or they'd be serious financial trouble buying a car to travel to work.



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    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe View Post
    The idea of spending 50k plus on a car or 400 a month lease makes me baulk.
    You and me both. I honestly can't fathom how people do it, yet I depend on it for an income

    400 is quite reasonable for a lease on a BEV it seems. You can nab an iD4 for about 400 with 15k miles and a 3k deposit. Unpalatable for a cheapskate like me tho.

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