Ahem "British Leyland"?Originally Posted by DLowe
Ahem "British Leyland"?
I thought the Energy crisis was partly down to shortage of Gas due to the Russian embargo, but wholesale prices would have gone up whether we were in the EU or not. Gas is a global commodity - besides Norway is where we import most of our imported gas from and they aren't in the EU
Take coal off the cards, again whether we were in the EU or not, there is still the climate debate to discuss, which is a global issue.
There is/was enough coal and gas to keep the country going as it was for 100s of years, Chatterley Whitfield, my local mine was the first to extract a million tons a year, they did this for over 20yrs and according to thier historian in the museum the seam could have sustained that for another 60+yrs.
Probably the biggest contributor to our gas supply is the lack of any reasonable sized gas storage facility, amendent, they reopened ROUGH in the North Sea, but it probably takes time to replenishIf we had not become so reliant on everywhere else we wouldn't have had anywhere near the negative impact the ukraine war has bought.
What about the Agriculture subsidy? That's the reason why food is / was cheapSo far as I can see with the "worker shortage" its just that the wealthy companies and land owners will not take a hit to thier profits to pay people an actual living wage, they just want cheap euro labour who are happy to live in squalllar and work for a pittance.
Tesco are making record amounts of money, yet holding farmers to ransom for goods and having the government top up the difference.
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Your logical fallacies are becoming a bit boring now, they just don't stand up to the facts. I will go through them with you when I get 10.
Last edited by LeonatLarge; 09-01-2023 at 19:53.
It's not a fallacy to make a point and have well rounded information to back it up. It's literally the opposite
I would argue that you are the one making fallacious arguments. If I pick out the vaccine, you effectively said being out of the EU meant we got the vaccine faster, we debunked that months ago, you said it again, we sent you the link to the head of the MHRA saying Brexit made no difference, and you just said "You're wrong". That if anything I would argue is fallacious, but it's more just stupid than anything else.
But I accepted months ago, before your hiatus, that you're not here to have an honest or informed discussion. You're here to celebrate a victory that even the centre-right press are well underway on U-turning their support for.
And this is why we're, again, not making any progress in this conversation. Doc or I make a point, you say it's wrong, one of us gives you a well rounded source (in this case an independent industry specific publication) to read that backs up what we're saying, and you say "well I think it's something else".
That's not how you make or support an argument. But what it is, as I've said a million times now, is indicative of the average Brexit voter who voted with what they thought and their gut rather than demonstrable facts.
It does seem a reasonable argument that if we were self sufficient we would be less affected by world events. But that's not how the UK works, neither the steel nor farming industries could ever be expanded to profitably support the entire UK. And I'd argue that if you needed to support the UK from farming you'd lose a chunk of trade, there's bound to be agricultural produce we export that's more profitable than consuming it domestically.
So again, it's a meaningless point.
You might have missed the fact they are all supported with links but as I said, I dont really care what you think, the fact you repeated the Starmer claim should be evidence enough that you wont let facts get in the way.
It does highlight the difference between your average Remain voter who will support what they are saying with facts and citations, someone like DLowe who will make reasoned arguments albeit from a more personal position and your average Brexiteer who parrots lies and bullshit even when they know they are false.
I get the feeling that this would only work if we could pursuade Ernest Borgnine to drive the Isle of Wight to Portsmouth hovercraft.
I'm still stuck on how someone not prosecuting Jimmy Saville is anything to do with Brexit and how not prosecuting someone us 'undemocratic' (see page 25)
Yea it's a global commodity but thanks to flogging off all the storage facilities we're very exposed to price fluctuations.
I saw the Germans spent several billion Euro last summer rapidly constructing a LNG terminal at one of their ports to help with Gas supply and cost.
We on the other hand did literally **** all.
We reopened Rough in the North Sea - in a panic mind
Have some sympathy. People in much higher places than him are doing the same at the moment
Private sector pay rising by 6.9 % is not the reason we have high inflation and high interest rates.
Brexit is not the reason we have high inflation and high interest rates the high inflation and high interest rates are the product of hundreds of billions being spent on covid, Russian sanctions causing fuel/energy to go up and the financial markets reaction to the fiscal statement. As I have said in a previous post the private sector Wage increases will not make a significant difference in comparison to the factors mentioned above.
What is your point here ?
If the UK construction industry contracts by 1.9% next year it is nothing to do with Brexit it is because interest rates have gone up and inflation has caused building materials to rise so projects that were profitable at tender stage are now making a loss.
The UK was able to procure the Vaccine faster than the rest of Europe put together.
https://www.instituteforgovernment.o...cisions-brexit
This a qoute from the article from the institute for government:
The UK is also better supplied with vaccines than its EU neighbours. The UK authorities have bought more vaccine doses per head of population than almost any other country in the world, with contracts signed for over five doses per Briton. Only Canada and the US have bought more. The EU’s joint procurement scheme has acquired only three doses for each European citizen.
The reason the UK slowed down the vaccine roll out in June was because as the article you posted clearly stated that the Astra Zenica vaccine was withdrawn for under 40's it was nothing to do with the UK's procurement process or Brexit.
Brexit enabled us to get rid of another layer of unelected officials, bureaucracy and corruption thus making us more democratic. As we have the power to remove the government of UK, we did not have any power to remove the unelected and elected bureaucrats of the EU as we could only remove our own MEP’s.
What is good for France may not be good for the UK ( UK France fishing dispute )
So are you really trying to claim that Sir Keir Starmer who was in charge of the Crown Prosecution Service when they decided not to prosecute Sir Jimmy Savile is in no way culpable?
I’m sure if Sir Keir was the leader of the Conservative party you would have a different opinion.
Here is a quote from the Guardian article that you posted a link to above from ex Priminister Boris Johnson :
“I was making a point about his responsibility for the organisation as a whole.
The UK’s high inflation is nothing to do with Brexit.
The EU’s higher growth figures are nothing to do with Brexit, Our ex prime minister and ex chancellor crashed the economy.
I do not need to lie to prove my point, the issues raised above are not because of Brexit and that is now common knowledge.
Everyone in the UK apart from you and your colleagues know you can’t blame everything negative that happens in the UK on Brexit the more you do this the more ridiculous you and your colleagues position becomes.
People that employ the use of fallacys and misdirection do so to deceive others.
Do any of the admins know why I'm now unable to read and create threads from my desktop ?
Posting from my mobile is a right ball ache and takes ages.
Last edited by LeonatLarge; 11-01-2023 at 12:21.
But that's the thing, Doc didn't say it was. You made this weird statement that Brexit voters knew they'd induce a labour shortage by voting to leave and all Doc did was point out that would increase inflation. It isn't the only reason we have high inflation but to pretend it won't have had an affect is stupid. I can't cite data but I firmly believe UK inflation would be lower right now were there not a chronic labour shortage.
No, it wasn't. Brexit had nothing to do with procurement speed. And if you want to argue with me about that yet again then here is another quote from your article, in fact, it's the very next line after your quote ends:
That article then goes on to show some disadvantages that the UK was actually exposed to because of Brexit, the most worrisome being border delays. I don't know if they actually came to fruition, but I think this is a poor article you've chosen to make your case. Remember, there is nothing that the UK did regarding authorising a vaccine or buying a vaccine that it could not have done while being a member of the EU. Honestly, there is nothing more to it than that.
Please, please stop talking about Jimmy Saville
I commend you though, this is the first reply you've laid down in a few days that I feel is genuinely meant to engage in an open conversation. There aren't too many insults but you really need to stop saying that the arguments against yours are fallacious, I don't think you know you're using the word incorrectly.
Last edited by piman2k; 11-01-2023 at 10:17.
As Pi pointed out, I didnt ever say it was, its a contributor though.
Its undeniable is that since we left the EU import/export difficulties, labour shortages and companies not being able to trade with customers they used to has negatively affected our economy.
While Covid and Ukraine have undoubtedly also had a detrimental effect, Brexit has left the UK in a worse position than if it had remained in the EU to handle these effects.
Im no fan of the EC but Brexit has also enabled some very positive human right and environmental legislation to be torn up, removed our ability to live and work in 27 other countries and left Northern Ireland high and dry.
You remember "easiest deal in history", "£350m extra for our NHS", "Only a madman would actually leave the (Single) Market"? This is what Brexit was sold on, none of it has come true.
Youll also remember "Project Fear" as well, handily it was all listed in Operation Yellowhammer and its almost like Mystic Meg wrote it herself: https://www.instituteforgovernment.o...n-yellowhammer
Which is more accurate would you say? Which of the benefits we were actually promised have we received? Thats all Im asking.
No idea whay this would be happening but will have a lookDo any of the admins know why I'm now unable to read and create threads from my desktop ?
Posting from my mobile is a right ball ache and takes ages.
I get the feeling that this would only work if we could pursuade Ernest Borgnine to drive the Isle of Wight to Portsmouth hovercraft.
And if there's any doubt, the OBR who inform the chancellor for the budget still have this summary document live: https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/th...s/#assumptions
This is independent of the disadvantages to the economy caused by the war. That is to say, this is literally JUST Brexit.
In 1978/9 when I was a student apprentice at GEC High voltage Switchgear in Stafford we were reckoned to be FIVE years behind Siemens.
I got the 2 years in that I needed for my thin sandwich HND and an EITB summer school at NSP. End of 79 they got rid of all technical/grad apprentices, don't bother come back next summer. Didn't take on any craft apprentices but were going to let the ones that had started finish the apprenticeship with no expectation of a job at the end. After that the training school was to be closed.
Site is now a housing estate.
The prototype Norton Rotary used to turn up quite often and park next to the portacabin I worked in summer '79.
This is a fantastic counter to the argument as well that there's widespread dissent at the EU in member states
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...c-since-brexit
A significant and unambiguous trend of leave support reducing significantly across all surveyed EU nations. They look at the UK I guess and see what it means to have exited.
GEC - good old American values, has it ever changed since edison and jp Morgan started it off?
Certainly not a patch on brush or south Wales gear.
Siemens must have been a lot better back in the day as it isn't a patch on modern brush gear even tho they are now part of a euro group.
But Siemens were probably well ahead back in the 60s and 70s, they spent a good chunk of the 40s developing equipment with free labour and unlimited test subjects....
It's nice how from such dark beginnings they have grown to take over most of the countries industries that fought against thier ideals
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The longer we're out, the more reality can be measured.
300,000 worker shortfall in lower skilled industry thanks to Brexit with 130,000 non-EU migrant workers taken on. That'll be adding to inflationary pressures as we've already covered. Jobs that are not being filled by UK workers because they, I imagine, don't want to do them.
https://www.ft.com/content/11414939-...4-baa0819fe821
Tax Fraud and evasion at an estimated all time high because of diverting HMRC operatives to Covid and Brexit related functions. Tangible damage to the Chancellors coffers and means less money for national projects.
https://www.ft.com/content/63ce3722-...d-0ae666e69b3c
£22 million less in the Turing Scheme for our kids to further their international education when compared to the EU Erasmus fund. But who cares about further education for our next generation right?
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/tur...-funding-cuts/
2015: "tHe GeRmAn CaR iNdUsTrY wOnT lEt ThE uK sUfFeR bEcAuSe Of BrExIt"
2022: UK made cars no longer able to satisfy the needs of the Government for armoured saloons in the Met Protection service because of Brexit related supply chain issues.
30 years of building high value high end cars for the government and now, exclusively because of Brexit, they're getting Audi's because JLR can't guarantee they can get the parts in time and steadily enough.
Brexit is a massive d1ck sucking exercise.
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/new...aguar-25831678
A 40% increase in the number of European bankers making over €1 million means one of two things (or both): that the EU is doing better in financial markets since Brexit and/or that UK banking staff are moving to EU hubs.
https://www.theguardian.com/business...u-paid-1m-plus
Bye bye tax revenue.
UK forecast to hit export target 15 years late due to Brexit
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b2267254.html
Independent UK start up reports 25% reduction in sales exports to EU
https://www.theguardian.com/business...under-red-tape
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