Brexit Benefits

[DLowe]

It's an anecdotal benefit....

But since starting this thread I have personally provided electricity supplies to another 20+ factory and industrial sites just in the small city of Stoke on trent, as have my colleagues.

I can't go finding web pages and articles to link to, but do I really need to, not at all..... its happening here, people are getting employed and the city is growing.

I don't believe you can blame the failing NHS on brexit..... when I first started as an electrician I was almost exclusively based at the hospital installing and refurbishing wiring on wards... things such as PFI schemes and using contractors to replace what should be in house roles (porters, catering, cleaning) is wasting far more money than anything else, and that's been going on under every government for decades.

The energy crisis is a good chunk traceable back to thatchers closing of industry and joining the common market to seal the fate of our core northern employers, as soon as they could "demonstrate" it was more cost effective to import all our fuel, we became so dependent on other countries there was never a real way back.

We still rely on coal and gas power stations to pick up demand, we can build as many windmills and solar farms as we want, but the harsh truth is that when the demand isn't there most of the energy is dissipated to earth and wasted...... but the private companies that own them still gat paid the full whack of export rates before its wasted.

There is/was enough coal and gas to keep the country going as it was for 100s of years, Chatterley Whitfield, my local mine was the first to extract a million tons a year, they did this for over 20yrs and according to thier historian in the museum the seam could have sustained that for another 60+yrs.

If we had not become so reliant on everywhere else we wouldn't have had anywhere near the negative impact the ukraine war has bought.

So far as I can see with the "worker shortage" its just that the wealthy companies and land owners will not take a hit to thier profits to pay people an actual living wage, they just want cheap euro labour who are happy to live in squalllar and work for a pittance.

Tesco are making record amounts of money, yet holding farmers to ransom for goods and having the government top up the difference.


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[DLowe]

I'm not missing your point, you have no point.

The investment in our national infrastructure was neither the fault of, the responsibility of or the business of anyone other than the UK government.

The EU had nothing to do with it. No EU free trade rules facilitated any investment in infrastructure against the will of the UK government.

the investment ended as soon as it was privatised. Joining the free trade common market allowed the government to show the people that almost all our industries, which were actually doing well were now somehow not sustainable and better sourced from abroad, after British Leyland and the various manufacturers, such as long Crawford etc were closed or sold to EU corporations they used this as evidence that privatisation of national infrastructure was a good idea.

The documentary "still the enemy within" is a good watch and tries to explain the way the government manipulated the media and figures to make our industries unsustainable when in fact they were doing quite well.


Allowing coal miners to have unlimited overtime to extract as much coal as possible for 2 yrs before announcing that we have more coal stock piled than we could use and the costs of running the mines is excessive so they need to be shut. And what little coal is required can be bought from abroad cheaper.

Similar is happening with food now, tesco go in and tell the farmer they will only buy thier milk if they can provide "X" amount, they let the farmer invest and spend money raising the cattle to then change the price they will pay for milk, offering less than it costs to produce knowing that the farm can not do anything with the milk produced so they have to sell it cheap or just tip it away. When the figures are looked at then then look incredibly inefficient and it justifies buying all the veg from abroad where there is less waste.

Your own common sense should tell you that something is severely wrong with the system if its preferable to import lettuce and tomatoes from Spain than to gather it from a field in the next county. I don't know the fine details about it all, but I don't need to to know something is rotten. I'm sure it will all come to light given time.

I can only speak from my industry but the UK still are the best in the world at manufacturing, all of schnieders bespoke and cutting edge transformers are made here and sent worldwide, its just a shame they make the ones we use everyday in Portugal.

Whatever market we are in it should not make sense to move mullions of tons of materials to one country, pay labour costs etc to make something there, then ship it all the way back again to distribute it. Hopefully making that kind of trade more difficult means we will have to be better at manufacturing here, recycling the metals here to use and as an added bonus save some of the environment not shipping things round in circles in between.


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[piman2k]

But since starting this thread I have personally provided electricity supplies to another 20+ factory and industrial sites just in the small city of Stoke on trent, as have my colleagues.

No one has ever doubted you on this being true, we accept your anecdotal experience . But what you haven't done is prove that it's as a result of Brexit.

I fully believe you when you say your field is doing well, and I want to emphasise that I'm happy for you that it is. But you won't/can't show me that it's because we left the EU. Because you would be, as far as I can tell, the only industry saying you've seen increased investment since Brexit and BECAUSE of Brexit.

You keep saying you can't go find web pages or data, what do you think that tells me? Doc and I have produced, on demands, mountains of reputable links to support our claims.

Your own common sense should tell you that something is severely wrong with the system if its preferable to import lettuce and tomatoes from Spain than to gather it from a field in the next county

No, it shouldn't. This is a really narrow minded position to hold. You can't grow tomatoes in Yorkshire in December and January without lots of infrastructure behind it. You can in Spain.

Whatever market we are in it should not make sense to move mullions of tons of materials to one country, pay labour costs etc to make something there, then ship it all the way back again to distribute it

I agree with this, but only from the ecological and carbon side of things. It has nothing at all to do with Brexit or the EU.

I'm not having the net zero, electricity, gas, supply and demand etc. conversations here as they are nothing to do with the benefits of Brexit.

[docwra]

No one has ever doubted you on this being true, we accept your anecdotal experience . But what you haven't done is prove that it's as a result of Brexit.

I fully believe you when you say your field is doing well, and I want to emphasise that I'm happy for you that it is. But you won't/can't show me that it's because we left the EU. Because you would be, as far as I can tell, the only industry saying you've seen increased investment since Brexit and BECAUSE of Brexit.

Also very pleased youre doing well, but f you want to play that game I have around 4,000 UK contractors on my database that cant work in the EU and about 10K Europeans that cant work here. Its not about whats happening to electricians in Stoke, its about the country as a whole and for that you have to look at stats, not personal experience.

[docwra]

I didn't mention the approval of the holy magic vaccine.
I said procure, there is a huge difference between procurement and approval.

Im guessing youre talking about the EU joint vaccine procurement scheme that we werent obliged to be involved in, and given the state of EU/UK relations probably wouldnt have been? FWIW the Starmer/Savile bullshit has been debunked more times than the Earth being flat.

But this ..........

A labour shortage benefits the vast majority as the employer will have to pay more money to secure their labour.

Is astonishing, I guess you were also aware that considerable increases in inflation and then interest rates are inevitable if wages increase?
Increased costs impact the lowest paid construction/care/catering workers most but when nobody anywhere is getting a pay rise in line with inflation in real terms everybody is worse off, but this is what you wanted?

The UK is about as Democratic as North Korea.

We have financial markets dictating our financial policy and selecting our latest prime minister.
The Tories want to ban people withdrawing their labour, which is undemocratic and it should be illegal to force anyone to go to work in a democracy.

The Labour Party wanted to bring in laws that would see people put in prison for stating facts on social media and for also stating their opinion, free speech is one of the foundations of any democracy which is why it is part of the American constitution.

You realise staying in the EU would prevent all of this happening? You knew that the UK Government are evil bastards but you still voted to leave? WTF?

You say its easy to see why Remain lost, but I see it the other way, its amazing that Leave won when there was so much of the campaign that was lies and utter bullshit, I mean Project Fear has become Project Reality ....... but then I guess there are plenty of people like you out that that swallowed it.

[piman2k]

It amazes me Doc that you expect Leon to understand any of that.

Even if he did, he would just say it was the plan all along.

Despite being on no flyers.

Edit - I do not believe people voted Brexit to induce a labour shortage. If they did, I would again want to see something to support that claim.

[DLowe]

I don't mean to say the the industrial growth of the Midlands has been due to brexit, I'm 100% sure that a lot of these expansions would have been planned and pushed for before brexit was even a thing.

The biggest difference I'm seeing - and I'm aware how it sounds - is the fact that we now go onto a building site and managed to communicate with the majority of people there, 5 yrs ago you had to know polish or Romanian to effectively talk to anyone at the Cheshire border and Sudanese or taliban within Staffordshire, now there is a lot more local employment.

And it's not racist, having many friends who are low level qualified or just labourers who have struggled since leaving school to find employment as there's always someone willing to do it cheaper or work for longer its refreshing to speak to them and know they are now doing far better. And the only thing that's changed is the rules regarding immigration.

I'm not doubting Doc is having issues moving contractors round Europe etc, but you are a reasonable and educated man, there should be provision in place to allow you to make the correct application etc to carry on..... I bet there isn't and it's a total shit show, but is this due to actual brexit or the suited arse holes in various powers ours and thiers making thing harder than needed to be.

It doesn't effect me directly, as a very senior electrical engineer I do very well in England and if I wanted to there is nothing stopping me going anywhere in the world, but watching from the sidelines it's refreshing to see those less fortunate actually get somewhere for once. I know at least 3 people who are going to have thier first ever holiday this year at nearly 40yrs of age, as they haven't been able to afford before.

There will always be winners and losers, and from our standpoint at the moment the less we'll off seem to be gaining (if they are willing to put themselves out there).



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[piman2k]

I don't mean to say the the industrial growth of the Midlands has been due to brexit, I'm 100% sure that a lot of these expansions would have been planned and pushed for before brexit was even a thing.

Then why do you keep talking about them in a topic asking for benefits of Brexit?

there should be provision in place to allow you to make the correct application etc to carry on..... I bet there isn't and it's a total shit show, but is this due to actual brexit or the suited arse holes in various powers ours and thiers making thing harder than needed to be.

Don't you see the flaw in your logic here, again? Even if the argument was valid, that somehow it was harder than it needed to be, it still wouldn't be an issue at all had Brexit not happened.

The biggest difference I'm seeing - and I'm aware how it sounds - is the fact that we now go onto a building site and managed to communicate with the majority of people there, 5 yrs ago you had to know polish or Romanian to effectively talk to anyone at the Cheshire border and Sudanese or taliban within Staffordshire, now there is a lot more local employment.

And it's not racist

Erm...

[DLowe]

Also very pleased youre doing well, but f you want to play that game I have around 4,000 UK contractors on my database that cant work in the EU and about 10K Europeans that cant work here. Its not about whats happening to electricians in Stoke, its about the country as a whole and for that you have to look at stats, not personal experience.

Isn't that what the point is for the poorer people in the UK?

You have 4000 people who will have to work here and now need another 6000 from the UK to fill the gap? So 6000 more people in the UK to find work and unfortunately the 10k Europeans will have to find something to do on that big expanse of land across the channel?

At the moment it's a shit show, as we adjust back to looking after our selves and new people come through education and training will it not be better in the long run? For the UK obviously not for everyone.

It's a selfish attitude I know, but take this pandemic for example, if those 6000 contractors were available for work by jumping in a transit van and not on a plane would the economy have suffered so much due to the lock down and travel restrictions?


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[piman2k]

You have 4000 people who will have to work here and now need another 6000 from the UK to fill the gap? So 6000 more people in the UK to find work and unfortunately the 10k Europeans will have to find something to do on that big expanse of land across the channel?

Show me you've never had to run a business without saying you've never had to run a business. This sentence is so unbelievably naïve to the concept of contract workers, supply, demand and skills where required.

What's more impressive is in your last post you seem absolutely fine with the idea of YOU going somewhere else to work if you wanted, but not of people coming here to work from elsewhere.

It might not be racist, but it's absolutely xenophobic and highly hypocritical.

Which is 2 out of 3 of the standard stereotypical tropes of Brexit voters.

[DLowe]

Then why do you keep talking about them in a topic asking for benefits of Brexit?

Don't you see the flaw in your logic here, again? Even if the argument was valid, that somehow it was harder than it needed to be, it still wouldn't be an issue at all had Brexit not happened.

Erm...

The benefit of brexit has been that low income local people can now gain more employment opportunities as there is no free movement of people.

The logic behind the doc comment is that there should be something to allow skilled and needed workers in, and by skilled I mean actual specialist work, not just brick layers and plasteres that we have in abundance, but people who can do things we aren't trained for.

To fill the skills that are required, not just replace an English person with someone willing to do it for less.

I spend a lot of time out in people's houses getting thier power back on and what some people are willing to live in is nothing short of third world, I've seen many states and it shows you why UK people are not willing to work for a pittance, obviously there are a lot of grotty UK people with no standards, but they don't work anyway. But go to longton or burslem and have a look around the terrace houses I can show you streets where every house has 10 men living there going work all day every day to live in squallar. That is a result of cheap migrant labour, I don't see they benefit, it just must be slightly better than they had at home, or the free health care that makes them want to live in it.

The only person benefiting are the companies who can post massive profits while keeping everyone's wages low because there was always someone willing to do it for less.



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[docwra]

I can actually see your point about the nationalities and language skills of the people you have to work with, but Ive got friends with catering and construction businesses against the wall because they cant find staff anymore, Ive heard its even worse in care industry.

You have 4000 people who will have to work here and now need another 6000 from the UK to fill the gap? So 6000 more people in the UK to find work and unfortunately the 10k Europeans will have to find something to do on that big expanse of land across the channel?

On the contractors side they are skilled workers with decades of experience and commensurate income requirements, they arent just going to start working behind a bar or picking fruit.
From the clients side (lets take Ferrari F1 for instance) where am I going to magic up 40 composite technicians that are skilled enough to build racecars?
If Im a smaller entity its inevitable my production will decrease and Ill potentially go bust.

And for what gain? We will be at 2 pages soon .........

[piman2k]

The benefit of brexit has been that low income local people can now gain more employment opportunities as there is no free movement of people.

in an economy that has shrunk almost now by double digits. Great work.

[DLowe]

in an economy that has shrunk almost now by double digits. Great work.

Is that brexit tho, or pandemic, war, general government misguidance....

Whatever figures anyone finds online all these issues are interlaced and we will never know what brexit would have been like without these additional factors.

Same as we do not know what we would have been like if the vote had gone the other way, would we be better? There has to be an argument that if borders were left open maybe we would be even worse due to our free health care, as more than ever its now at the forefront of everyone's mind

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[LeonatLarge]

I'm guessing youre talking about the EU joint vaccine procurement scheme that we werent obliged to be involved in, and given the state of EU/UK relations probably wouldnt have been?

Whether we were obliged/should of/ would of/ could of/ joined the EU joint vaccination programme or not before Brexit is conjecture, the fact of the matter is; that we did not take part in the EU joint vaccination programme after Brexit and we were able to procure the vaccine in a much faster and more efficient manner than the whole of the EU put together which shows how useless the EU bureaucrats are.

the Starmer/Savile bullshit has been debunked more times than the Earth being flat.

No, you are incorrect. It is impossible to debunk facts.

Sir Keir Starmer was head of the Crown Prosecution service from 2008-2013, the Crown Prosecution Service decided not to prosecute Sir Jimmy Savile in 2009. No reasonable person will believe that Sir Keir as head of the CPS would not have been involved or aware of such a high profile case. No reasonable person will be able to accept that Sir Keir is not culpable as the head of a Crown Prosecution Service that failed to prosecute one of the most prolific known paedophiles of our time.

Is astonishing, I guess you were also aware that considerable increases in inflation and then interest rates are inevitable if wages increase?
Increased costs impact the lowest paid construction/care/catering workers most but when nobody anywhere is getting a pay rise in line with inflation in real terms everybody is worse off, but this is what you wanted?

The recent inflation and interest rate rises are a product of poor political decisions such as hundreds of billions of pounds being wasted on the Covid debacle, the war in Ukraine (sanctions on Russia) and the financial markets reaction to Ex Prime minister Liz Truss and Kwasi Quartangs fiscal statement which in turn crashed the economy.

The biggest employer the NHS is yet to give any substantial pay rises to any employees which I believe is the same throughout the public sector so I doubt the wage increase due to the labour shortage in certain industries and professions has had a significant effect on inflation and interest rates.

You realise staying in the EU would prevent all of this happening?

Staying in the EU would not of stopped this from happening the EU have their Charter of Fundamental Rights but they don't effectively get member states to adhere to the rules.

You knew that the UK Government are evil bastards but you still voted to leave? WTF?

Evil ? I wouldn't know about that.
Corruption, low moral competency and lack of empathy? The EU Parliament offices were raided by Brussels police last year and they are still under investigation.

You say its easy to see why Remain lost, but I see it the other way, its amazing that Leave won when there was so much of the campaign that was lies and utter bullshit, I mean Project Fear has become Project Reality ....... but then I guess there are plenty of people like you out that that swallowed it.

It still amazes me that the Remoaners can't see the elephant in the room, A significant number of people who voted leave did so because of immigration, it is a well known fact that immigration has an effect on labour markets and public services, so for you and your colleague to claim that people who voted leave were unaware of this fact is absurd.
As an Electrical Contractor I have benefited from Brexit, we were given the vote and we won, you lost, get over it......

[docwra]

You know what? People like Leon are why we are in this situation, Im embarrassed to share my nationality with them sometimes.

Just fabrications, lies, bullshit over and over and over again, its beyond depressing, particularly the "we won" part, nobody won from Brexit.

[LeonatLarge]

Ad hominem

You have resorted to attacking the person/persons character and not the argument/debate. Speaks volumes.

You know what? People like Leon are why we are in this situation, Im embarrassed to share my nationality with them sometimes..

What is this situation you speak of ?

fabrications, lies, bullshit over and over and over again,Brexit.

These are very strong words especially when you have said nothing to substantiate these wild claims, I'm not a liar.

Can you please enlighten me as to which part of my thread is fabrications lies and bullshit.

its beyond depressing, particularly the "we won" part, nobody won from Brexit.

You only find it depressing because you lost.
You are not the authority on Brexit or the EU, 51 % of the country won 49% lost.
There are many millions of people who have benefited from Brexit.

[piman2k]

Oh God Leon, it's not even worth trying with you anymore lol.

You are just living in a different world

Doc, I share your woes man. I laugh only because there's nothing else left to do.

[docwra]

These are very strong words especially when you have said nothing to substantiate these wild claims, I'm not a liar.
Can you please enlighten me as to which part of my thread is fabrications lies and bullshit.

One of the benefits of leaving the EU is that it has gave construction and engineering a huge boost

Construction: Skills and material shortages https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/b...es-10-08-2022/
1.9% contraction expected in 2023 https://www.globaldata.com/store/rep...rket-analysis/

Another benefit of leaving the EU was how quickly we were able to procure the holy magic vaccine,

Didnt speed up procurement and actually slowed the rollout down https://bylinetimes.com/2022/06/29/h...ccine-rollout/

Another benefit of leaving the EU is that we are now more democratic

You debunked this one yourself "The UK is about as Democratic as North Korea ....... the Tories want to ban people withdrawing their labour, which is undemocratic and it should be illegal to force anyone to go to work in a democracy."

The Labour Party leader Sir Keir didn't prosecute the serial paedophile Jimmy Saville

Even Boris admitted he was wrong to make this claim https://www.theguardian.com/politics...osecute-savile

The recent inflation and interest rate rises are a product of poor political decisions

Except every other country is also seeing high inflation ....... but all of the EU is seeing much less economic impact and faster recovery.

I doubt the wage increase due to the labour shortage in certain industries and professions has had a significant effect on inflation and interest rates.

Private sector pay rose 6.9% between August and October 2022: bbc.co.uk/news/55089900
Wage increases inevitably increase inflation, its basic economics.

Not bad for 2 posts TBH, youre either very misinformed or deliberately lying, TBH I dont really care which.

[DLowe]

Do we not think the shortage in materials and building supplies is more to do with the pandemic, everyone staying at home and stopping production....

As a lot of our stuff is produced abroad thanks to the decline in UK industry since joining is it not simply a case of nations sorting themselves out first?

I can't see how that's not more to blame than brexit, again tho it's another thing that we will never know an honest answer as it will be twisted to suit the audience as to what is the blame. But it's certainly not attributed wholly to one reason or another.

However, if we produced our own steel still and used our own oil fields and grew our own vegetables one things for certain, we would be better off and less affected by world turbulence

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