The Public Accounts Committee (Cross party) have run a report on Brexit, read the article here:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60308494
but take this line as the summary:
The only detectable impact of Brexit on UK firms has been increased costs, paperwork and border delays
We will never know if it could have been a success or not as the pandemic has been far more productive for the government to frig about with than brexit....
I think it could have worked a lot better if it was implemented from the start by people who actually believed what they were doing.... it was like a vegan selling burgers.
There's no guarantee Europe is going to be any better in a year or two, the collective might just be dampening the effects for now and end up in a bigger disaster.
There is no correct answer as everything is subjective to your perspective, there seems to be more job opportunities round here as the building industry is booming and suddenly there is a lack of cheap European labour.
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I hear this a lot and I struggle with it.Originally Posted by DLowe
It was implemented by people who believed in it.
We left the EU with Johnson at the helm having forced May out a year before, with Rees-Mogg steering the house, Raab at their side and Gove sniffing lines in between them.
What do you think could have been done better? Bear in mind there have been no surprises. Nothing has happened (as far as I know) that wasn't forecast by the various leave campaigns.
The pandemic has been a blessing behind which the Government has hidden. And now because we were so badly damaged they get to claim we have a great recovering, when the reality is we're just recovering from a worse place, a place the rest of the EU, generally, didn't get to.
For starters wasn't may involved in and made a cack job of the negotiations up until the point we left?
Johnson is a arse hole, but to be fair did indeed inherit a shit show.
So far as I can tell if the negotiations were buying a used car we went in telling then we would leave with it no matter what, so keep as many bits you can pull off.
I may be wrong, but my negotiations would probably have been a lit more focused on the areas outside of the EU we can do business with and let them approach us when they can see effort put elsewhere,
Instead we kept up a massive argument with the "ex" while doing very little in the way of trying pull a new Mrs... while at the same time allowing the ex to send DMs to anyone who showed interest threatening all sorts of misbehaving if they dared talk to us..
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Yeah, this is pretty true. The better analogy came from David Schneider:
You are wrong yeah. We weren't allowed by law to do any negotiating with any countries outside of the EU until we had left the EU. So nothing different could have happened.
As for doing the new deals, we've already done 69 of them. The problem is, they're ****ing worthless compared to the combination of trade we've lost with the EU coupled with the increased cost of doing business.
The university of Sussex calculated that the value of ALL of the new trade deals combined is currently worth 50p to every UK citizen, rising to about £7 peak in FIFTEEN YEARS.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1959478.html
As with anything on a global scale its going to take years and years to settle.
I still believe we are better out, not because of trade deals or immigration or the like, I think we are yet to see some serious issues following corona and hopefully it will be easier to float a small island than try to lift an entire continent.
When all the hatred from Europe calms down for us leaving, I'm sure the deals will mature into something closer to what they were.
Joining in the first place was the mistake, all the free trade did was close UK manufacturing in favour of cheaper European labour.
My industry is an excellent example, pre 1990 everything was uk manuftured, hawker Sidley, brush, south Wales switchgear, reyrole, Compton Parker... all UK made and the best quality in the world - sold world wide, can be found everywhere from America to Japan...
None exist anymore, all sold out to foreign companies like Lucy electric in France who manufacture thier stuff in Prague and other Eastern blocks..... and the quality is shite by comparison, we're still using 1970s UK made stuff, already replacing 2000s due to breakages.
Has the price got any cheaper? Not at all the consumer pays almost bang on the equivalent now as they did from the old UK makers.... why? Because now there has to be way bigger profits for the huge mega corporation that owns everything, not just a reasonable profit for a UK factory.
Pottery gone the same, plates and tiles etc are no cheaper coming from Spain than UK for the consumer, but free trade allowed the companies to manufacture cheaper and bump the profit margin.
As the pandemic proved tho, J.I.T. stocking from abroad isn't reliable at all in an emergency and having so little manufacturing now means we have set ourselves up for a fall if the shit ever does hit the fan
My hope is we do settle down when everyone has finished crying about if we should have left or not and when the in house argument is over the powers that be do try and restore independence and self sustainability.
We had it all and lost it to europe/China.. one day we might get it back.
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But this is impossible for me to digest. You think we're better out but we have demonstrable, sizeable damage to our economy which is the underlying decider in everything we want to do.
Europe doesn't hate us for leaving. We are not being punished by them as the right wing would like to spin it. Europe has done nothing but honour it's end of the agreements that we negotiated and followed the law. It's the UK exceptionalism that makes us believe we somehow deserve better than we signed into.
Hawker Siddley didn't cease to manufacture, it went onto found BAE group. As doc has just showed you, not everything aeronautical is rosy right now.
I read what you're saying, and I get it, it's a list of wants and things you're hoping for. But there's nothing to show any of it will happen. Each time I point out a logical, demonstrable rebuttle to one of your wishes chap you're just moving to a new topic.
The crux of it is, we just made ourselves significantly harder to trade with. The EU represents our single biggest customer for everything we make or export, and we made it much harder and more expensive to do that. So if you thought were had somehow lost out in the last 50 years, brace yourself for this year.
Remember your in a position where the EU was a massive benefit to yourself and industry, you will be issued towards it... same with doc and the aviation industry.
As an electrician I've only seen opportunity, the price of materials has sky rocketed, but that was happening anyway due to China consuming all, but there has been a boom in building and the pandemic has even brought more opportunity as everyone is spending on properties.
I'm thinking about what will happen if economy's collapse following the pandemic, a lot of Europe wasn't fairing all that well before.
When the titanic sank it was the first to the life boats that survived, sometimes its better to tale a early hit than hang on till the end.
Don't forget that if you look at any non BBC or similar news Europe is rife with protesting and there as a hell of a lot of people wanting out of thier EU agreements too.
The EU will never deal with us proper as they will not want any other country following us out the door, if we do somehow make it work in a decade or so imagine the fall out when they were upset before.
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I won't refute that, but those industries thriving generates enormous tax receipts that fuel the economy.
So it's irrelevant.
This is just a garbage analogy. The EU was working for us. We put in membership which was a fraction of what we took out in trade revenue.
No there aren't. There are some protests and they make the news, but Polling for EU views is still overwhelmingly in favour of remaining in the EU. Don't believe me? See for yourself - https://europeelects.eu/eu-membership-approval/
Again, this is nonsense leave campaign rhetoric that you've eaten up. The EU has done nothing but deal with us properly. They have held us to every agreement we've made and insisted we follow them. Just because the Express points out that they are making us do it and it's sh*t for us, doesn't mean it isn't proper and right.
I know it looks like I'm being fussy, but I'm literally writing what is happening.
Not going to bother with DLowes individual points as some of them actually make my cry reading them.
Brexit it was never going to work because everything we were promised was all bullshit, bluster and suggestions that the 27 members of the EU would alter 35 year old rules they are all in agreement with to suit us.
As a nice straightforward example we have the Northern Ireland Protocol/Good Friday Agreement. Its only 16 pages long, and the main thrust is the Northern Ireland should not ever receive different treatment from mainland UK.
Unless we stay in the Customs Union and to a lesser extent the Common Market this was always going to be impossible, anyone who took 5 minutes to read the agreement knew that but Johnson told us otherwise, he knew what he was saying was untrue but continued.
We are now blaming the EU for implementing "red tape" in imports and exports, causing us big delays and huge increases in cost. Again, this is bollocks, these are the same rules that we actually utilised when we were members; by leaving the EU we are now a 3rd party country like Nigeria or Argentina, why shouldnt we be subject to the same rules they are? We arent "arguing with the ex", we are demanding the ex-wife (or husband) still cooks, cleans and does the bedroom thing even though we have remarried.
Trade deals were apparently going to be the biggest benefit, they would be everywhere and plentiful. The reality is we have signed very few, some of which actually have a detrimental effect on our economy https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1959478.html and its now becoming apparent that we have agreed to relax farming and food standards in order to get them, something else we were promised would never happen.
This is before you look at farming, fishing, waterways, human and civil rights, the quality of food in supermarkets, availability of unskilled labour, additional funding for the NHS, runaway inflation ......... I could go on.
FWIW "my industry" hasnt actually been affected at all ..... unless youre British where we are seeing wholesale movement into other industries now they cant travel for work. Conversely my EU guys havent even noticed an impact from Brexit but some of my EU clients are facing collapse as they cant access the skills they have previously relied on.
Sure, a few people might have noticed a short term increase in wages or available work but this is miniscule compared to inflation increases and the impact of Brexit on big business, a lot more people are suffering.
Brexit voters were sold a lie, and to some extent I dont actually blame them for believing it .......... but if you think Brexit was a good thing you need to open your eyes, there are literally no positives at all.
I get the feeling that this would only work if we could pursuade Ernest Borgnine to drive the Isle of Wight to Portsmouth hovercraft.
The EU protests I was referring to are not ones around brexit, I mean the yellow vests in Paris, many vaccine ones in Bulgaria, Germany. Greek economy .... pre pandemic there was a lot of unhappy people in the EU, not just to do with the union but individual countries.
If these start up again and start getting more serious then the early exit may turn out a good thing
The maps your linking to above show a similar number of people wanting to remain as the news reported in Britain right up until the vote actually got counted, remember leave was a minority on every news outlet.
We should never have joined in the first place, it seems to have always been setup as a once your in your in for ever. And rules such as no negotiation while still in should have been ignored. It would have been in everyone's best interest once the ball was rolling to walk away and talk with the other 70% of the world
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Last edited by DLowe; 10-02-2022 at 13:49.
That literally makes no sense. The topic and the conversation are about how Brexit has turned out, what's been good about it. And you're saying to me that because there are small, unrelated protests in the EU about other subjects then it might turn out that we left for a good reason.
Chap, come on. Your reasoning just isn't sound.
Edit - and not one of those countries is currently polling for wanting to leave the EU.
Last edited by piman2k; 10-02-2022 at 13:45.
I'm saying that exactly, the place was not all well and only time will tell if it was good or not....
The same could have been said if we remained, there's no guarantee that all would stay good if other countries started pulling away or economies fail.
There is little point arguing or reasoning with what has been done.... its about time the whole country came to terms with the fact its over and started pulling towards a common target. There will always be however saboteurs on both sides of the argument as they feel so strongly about what could have or should have been.
Personally I think we would be in a mess regardless of in or out, it would just be in another form with another thing to blame. There are no governents in this western world who are not 100% focused by greed and thier own interests above the people in general, be it tory or Labour they won't have the peoples best interests in mind.
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Also the topic of conversation in this thread was to try and pick fault with brexit, every post has been to highlight negatives, no positive thoughts so far as I can remember (has been going on lo ger than I can).
A more productive subject would have been "what can we improve now brexit has happened"
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And that is quite impossible when the leave side continue to make things up.
Take the time to listen to this call with an avid Brexiteer speaking to James O'Brien, saying that he wants to heal while James points out that he is continuing to talk nonsense about what Brexit is. This is exactly what you have just said, so listen to the conversation. 6 minutes of your life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNW8...ab_channel=LBC
The difference between remain voters and leave voters was that remain voters worked on facts, Leave voters had nothing. As long as leave voters continue to cling to this myth that the country is better off or that it was "probably" going to get worse in Europe, there can be no healing.
That is quite literally the point of the topic: there have been no tangible demonstrable positive effects of Brexit.
It's at a point now where the Government I swear are trolling us, listing the ability to put the crown stamp on pint glasses and offer units of sale in imperial units as "benefits" of Brexit.[/QUOTE]
Belgium has just cut VAT on energy bills.
Something the Brexiteers said you couldn’t do in the EU.
Oh, and we’re still not doing it.
Unlike the rest of Europe our retarded government sold our energy companies off so again profit over people...
E.on and EDF are still controlled by thier own countries, can't see anyone else been daft enough hand thier essential services to foreign powers.
Fancy letting private companies extract oil and gas from your sovereign soil and sell it to the highest bidder.... imagine if it was kept in house and used to run the country it was extracted from....
Imaging being able to dig a hole in the ground and pull magic rocks out run power stations...
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I don't know whose energy networks in Europe are state owned, but it's not really relevant
A Brexit benefit sold to people like you was that we needed to leave the EU to be able to cut VAT on our energy prices.
Which was immediately debunked by the remain campaign yet ignored by leave voters.
Now we are out of the EU still hasn't been executed and the government are saying "well we never said we would" despite multiple video clips of them saying they would.
Even the fcuking Express had a tizzy about it.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/scien...et-rishi-sunak
Next.
There were no benefits sold to me..... I was absolutely positive ot would be a shit show regardless of how it went.
The point is regardless of in or out we are still feeling the effects of thatchers privatisation drive nearly 40yrs ago, and even worse the PFI schemes from blairs lot and the same will happen with brexit.... this kind of thing will take decades settle down.
None of us can know if it's been a benefit or not for a very long time..... what's happening now, just a couple of years in plus with a pandemic the whole time is likely to be very minor in the grand scheme of the way it will eventually play out
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But again, this I don't get. It wasn't a shit show before, it was always going to be a shit show after. If you don't mind me asking, did you vote Leave?
I don't think we're feeling the affects of privatisation properly, because privatising the energy market has kept many of us on low tariffs for years. What we're now feeling is this particular governments inability to respond to the crisis as it should have done with say, I don't know, gas reserves that it doesn't have because it sold them.
But this is not what Vote Leave said or how it was sold to the electorate. Raab famously came on air months after we left to say that no one would feel the benefits for at least 10 years, Rees-Mogg then trumped him with 50 years. No one was told it would be like that so I can't see why that doesn't hack you off?
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