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Thread: Brexit Benefits

  1. #341
    Self confessed player of the pink oboe docwra's Avatar
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    **** it, Ive had enough. If you want to make an argument, particularly on the internet you need some way of proving what you are saying is correct. There are called sources or citations and it doesnt matter how correct you actually are, without providing this type of evidence people will disregard what you are saying.
    With that in mind ..........

    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe View Post
    I could go on the Internet and find some statistics to show manufacturing is up in the last 12 months.... but is that because of brexit penalising imports, or is it the pandemic showing us that we should not rely so heavily on foreign imports??
    Quite aside from the page title https://www.investmentmonitor.ai/man...very-confusion says manufacturing overall is down, costs are up, the innovation fund is gone and there is a chronic labour shortage. This is all Brexit.

    I could go and find some reports saying Eastern European labour has declined since brexit... or is that the ukrane war?
    The report I cited above says 200,000 EU workers have left manufacturing, this one says 40,000 have left catering: https://www.thecaterer.com/news/sign...ty-2021-fourth. Pandemic may have contributed but they arent coming back, mainly because they cant.

    I'm sure if you looked the results will be biased to what you believe. As such why should they be treated any better than an opinion?
    Because rather than being the feelings of some bloke on SXOC, these are trade publications, both of which quote their own sources which themselves are respected polling or market research companies.

    Remember right up until the last vote was counted every statistic said remain was wiping the floor with leave voters - acurate wasn't it?
    Those were polls, not facts. Theres a massive difference, if I need to explain ...........
    They also predicted a pretty close result with non predicted more than 5% either way, believe it or not I can prove that too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinio...%20would%20win.

    Just 2 days ago the Queen was comfortable in Balmoral, 10secs later they reported she was dead.
    She was a 96 year old woman who had recently cancelled various events due to failing health, its hardly a surprise.

    Instead of being fed by someone else I prefer to go with what I'm actually experiencing, not what I'm being told I'm experiencing.
    In that case I reiterate that you shouldnt be allowed to vote. Theres untold amounts of accurate, unbiased information out there but you wont consider *any* of it when making a decision that could affect the future of your family, friends and country? Thats so Daily Mail it actually hurts.

    When you say how has brexit directly been the cause of a benefit, I pose the same question right back, how has brexit directly been a negative to you how has it personally made your life worse in a way hhat has not also been contributed by pandemic or war aswell.
    And as Pi said, as well as ignoring actual facts youre ignoring what we are posting too. For the record, once again:

    off the top of my head you have freedom to work and live in 28 other countries, free medical care, welfare, pensions in each. You have the ECHR, you have vastly better trade opportunities and a much bigger presence when it comes to negotiation on a global scale and better financial integration for tax, FX, share trading etc.
    Security against mad Russians and terrorists would undoubtedly be better, far more opportunities for classroom and cultural education particularly in sciences. Protection against crazy right wing governments that deport refugees to Rwanda, pump shit into the rivers and remove your right to protest among other things.

    In addition it now costs considerably more to buy/sell/ship anything to or from the EU, food standards and availability have reduced here, opportunities for students are non existent, bands cant tour (and EU bands cant tour here), every single financial metric is down, GBP is weaker against EUR, theres unrest in NI again, much better chance of devolution for Scotland and we have at least 6 legal cases pending against UK for breaking international law, if we invoke Article 16 we are pretty much guaranteed NI devolves following a trade war with the EU.

    Me personally? I cant reclaim EU VAT, my UK workforce cant work in EU and vice versa, Ive had to set up payrolls in Germany, Sweden, Ireland and Belgium, Id guess that 70 of my guys used to pay tax and NI in UK, its now about 10percent. There are shortages of all sorts of workers, from composite technicians to upholsterers and everything costs more as we need to take advice, even though sometimes the rules havent been written yet.
    I cant take my dogs on holiday, Im paying more for everything from travel insurance to phone calls .......... and Im a cash rich company in an industry that hasnt been affected that badly.
    Quote Originally Posted by scimmy ben
    I get the feeling that this would only work if we could pursuade Ernest Borgnine to drive the Isle of Wight to Portsmouth hovercraft.
    Quote Originally Posted by sprout
    After I shave my balls swarfega helps soothe, but means the hair grows back quite quickly, so give it a go

  2. #342
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    And in the next edition of "Brexit Benefits that affect everyone", I give you the now heavily circulated rumour of Liz Truss' bonfire of workers rights to boost the economy.

    https://www.theguardian.com/global-d...workers-rights

    Including, but not limited to, floating the idea of scrapping the 48 hour max working week, removing requirements and targets of equal pay for men and women, an unspecified assault on holiday pay as championed by Jacob Rees-Mogg and the tighter regulation of trade unions.

    Couldn't have done this in the EU.

    DLowe, my list of losses from Brexit includes the need to pay for a Visa to go abroad, losing the right to live and work freely in the EU (and for my kids too), not being able to hop in the car with the dogs and go abroad, having to pay duties on goods I get from the EU.

    My company suffers the same, we've spent six figures on extra import duties for one of our prototypes because of leaving the single market and the rules of origin requirements. All that comes out of the bottom line and affects our performance and my bonus.
    Last edited by piman2k; 14-09-2022 at 07:46.

  3. #343
    Self confessed player of the pink oboe docwra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post
    https://www.theguardian.com/global-d...workers-rights

    Including, but not limited to, floating the idea of scrapping the 48 hour max working week, removing requirements and targets of equal pay for men and women, an unspecified assault on holiday pay as championed by Jacob Rees-Mogg and the tighter regulation of trade unions.
    This was one of my biggest concerns with Brexit, the EU had always acted as a handbrake to crazy right wing tory ideas.

    We were told over and over it was just "Project Fear" but here we are, 18 months in and we are already a big reduction in workers rights, with a knock on that we wont be able to sell *anything* into the EU as we arent following the same standard they are. And still some people say it was a good idea and is working well?
    Quote Originally Posted by scimmy ben
    I get the feeling that this would only work if we could pursuade Ernest Borgnine to drive the Isle of Wight to Portsmouth hovercraft.
    Quote Originally Posted by sprout
    After I shave my balls swarfega helps soothe, but means the hair grows back quite quickly, so give it a go

  4. #344
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    Let's not also forget that just last year the Conservatives and Brexit Party blocked a bill that would have made fire and rehire illegal

    https://labourlist.org/2021/10/tory-...ajority-of-63/

    So, while it's all good now, it might be that DLowe watches his factory friends being fired for not agreeing to work more hours, and then offered rehires on the same money but for 50 hours "because economy".

    So dismantled working rights with fire and rehire, it's a worrying time to be employed.

  5. #345
    Guest DLowe's Avatar
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    Quickly reading both those articles linked above, I can't see anything that says they are actually doing anything, just properganda that they might..

    Reinforcing what I said above that media can and is manipulated towards the audience to what they want to read.....

    I sincerely hope they do not try to change labour laws, but then I also sincerely hope that people have the back bone to fight if they do, a repeat of the poll tax riots would go a good way to bringing the government back in line with the people.

    Isn't the yellow vest movement in France not about similar issues?

    From the guardian article if read from a neutral perspective, it seems its the EU which are preventing the UK from making any changes which may give us a positive position in manufacturing..... keeping us under control with sanctions - a bit like what's being attempted now with Russia, going well that is....

    Was that not a good reason to leave, to have the freedom to make a change? The key is to make sure the working man has influence on what changes are made and does not allow the government to have at it how they like.

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  6. #346
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    Jesus Christ. Propaganda? It's a news article reporting what the rumours are. I literally said rumour.

    You need to learn what propaganda is chap before you start accusing news of being it. You prattle on about being neutral and at the same time accuse news of being propaganda.

    What it's saying is that we have an agreement to have similar rules and laws to the EU, and that we may diverge but not if it distinctly tilts the balance in our favour, in any industry and not just manufacturing (you've added that bit in yourself). How would we tilt that balance? By attracting investment because we would have a workforce that would be easier to exploit (no maximum hours, no pay equality), cheaper to pay and cheaper to maintain (no paid holidays, no compulsory pensions).

    It's impossible to me that you could even begin to rationalise that.

    There is nothing about a non-regression clause comparable to a sanction either. That's very different.

    Can we also take a moment to recognise that not only have you COMPLETELY ignored doc's detailed deconstruction of your entire argument, but now you're looking back at the poll tax riots with an apparent sense of nost***ic charm, donning similar events as a good way to bring the government back into line. Chap, this is the government Brexiteers voted for.
    Last edited by piman2k; 14-09-2022 at 21:04.

  7. #347
    Self confessed player of the pink oboe docwra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe View Post
    From the guardian article if read from a neutral perspective, it seems its the EU which are preventing the UK from making any changes which may give us a positive position in manufacturing..... keeping us under control with sanctions - a bit like what's being attempted now with Russia, going well that is....
    Jesus titty****ing Christ. While we were members of the EU we contributed and agreed to this legislation as it was clearly positive for the UK ........ but somehow 2 years later its a sanction akin to trying to bankrupt a country?

    Quote Originally Posted by scimmy ben
    I get the feeling that this would only work if we could pursuade Ernest Borgnine to drive the Isle of Wight to Portsmouth hovercraft.
    Quote Originally Posted by sprout
    After I shave my balls swarfega helps soothe, but means the hair grows back quite quickly, so give it a go

  8. #348
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    Well, now we're done dismantling the last few pages of peculiarity, back to business as usual.

    Truss finally admitting there will be no talk of a US trade deal in the medium term even though Johnson promised this would be one of the big benefits

    https://www.itv.com/news/2022-09-20/...e-deal-with-us

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    The Bankers Bonus Cap of 200% salary, introduced by the EU post the 2008 financial crisis, is next on the chopping board.

    Neither Truss nor Kwarteng have said why, other than Truss saying she is prepared to make the "difficult decisions" to achieve growth.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/ar...ying-with-fire

    Nothing difficult about allowing rich bankers to net more money and take more risks with the economy.

    Couldn't have done this is the EU, another Brexit benefit.

    Does slightly seem to go against her narrative of "militant trade unions" trying to get their workers raises simply to combat inflation. But you know, never let the 99% get in the way of the 1%...

  10. #350
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    £10 million a week in roaming charges for British travellers through the EU due to Brexit deregulation of roaming charges.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/co...s-cash-brexit/

    C'mon DLowe, where are you to refute these?

  11. #351
    Guest DLowe's Avatar
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    Good afternoon.....

    I'm not here to refute anything, it's certainly a lot worse if you want to travel to Europe...

    Is it any worse than going USA or AUS or Japan?

    Does it matter?

    Didn't cost me anything to roam in the Netherlands last month.... so who's getting charged? Not EE from my experience.

    The vast majority of people will be lucky to take 1 euro holiday a year, so does a quid a day really have an effect, is it news worthy?

    A better use of the news would be to highlight the massive increase in holiday costs following covid and all people willing to spaff 4x the cost for the same holiday because they feel hard done to not having a holiday for 2 yrs.... in the grand scheme of this racquet a couple of quid to post shit holiday pics to Instagram isn't a drop in the pond

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    Last edited by DLowe; 21-09-2022 at 19:22.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe View Post
    I'm not here to refute anything, it's certainly a lot worse if you want to travel to Europe...
    Cool beans, so an acceptance there that it's worse than when we were in the EU. Good times, Brexit making sense again

    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe View Post
    Is it any worse than going USA or AUS or Japan? Does it matter?
    Course it does. The lions share of UK holiday making and trading is done with the EU, not Japan or AUS.

    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe View Post
    Didn't cost me anything to roam in the Netherlands last month.... so who's getting charged? Not EE from my experience.
    "I'm alright Jack". You're nothing if not consistent

    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe View Post
    A better use of the news would be to highlight the massive increase in holiday costs following covid and all people willing to spaff 4x the cost for the same holiday because they feel hard done
    Irrelvant to the conversation, but OK?

  13. #353
    Guest DLowe's Avatar
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    I agree it's definitely worse than when we were in the EU, I have never disagreed, just tried to put a different view across... and the possibility in the future we may...MAY.... be better off on our own IF other economies fail or unexpected issues arise in the EU, maybe with Russia or similar.... only time will tell

    What I meant with the roaming charges above was its a fairly recent thing we were not charged, I went to Paris in 2012 and had to pay a euro roaming fee with EE (may have been orange back then) but last month I didn't, so I can't see why it's even news worthy.

    So far as I can make out it's new contracts going forward people may need to pay a roaming charge, so it's nothing spectacular, and certainly nothing we didn't have to do until very recently within the EU anyway.

    I know the holiday situation is nothing to do with brexit, but to me that's where the news is significant, not the reintroduction of a small charge.

    Something I have noticed this last two weeks...

    I joined a amsterdam page on Facebook just before going and still see it pop up on my feed..

    We are quick to blame brexit for all our airport issues and ques, yet there is daily complaints on there about schipol airport and from other euro travellers saying that thier local airports are just as bad....

    So it would seem a lot of the travel chaos is nothing at all to do with brexit as most countries are having problems, equally the ones who are still in - the problems are for all too, not just UK residents, Americans, EU, Australian seen pretty much every nation comment on it

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    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe
    and the possibility in the future we may...MAY.... be better off on our own IF other economies fail or unexpected issues arise in the EU, maybe with Russia or similar.... only time will tell
    But you never say how, or why. You never give any reason why you think that could even be remotely possible.

    This is my second biggest issue with your posts after the "I'm alright Jack" attitude. "We might be better off" - based on literally nothing. Doc and I can rattle off tangible, demonstrable ways in which we are fiscally and politically weaker than the EU, and yet you still, pardon the expression, fantasise that something "might happen" in the future and we'll be fine as a result of being out of the EU.

    It makes no sense to me. Edit - to finish, and that's why I struggle so much with Brexit. Because so many people are like you. Gut feeling rather than objective facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe
    We are quick to blame brexit for all our airport issues and ques, yet there is daily complaints on there about schipol airport and from other euro travellers saying that thier local airports are just as bad....
    I don't think many people are blaming Brexit for the UK airport situation. It's a lack of staff following the mass layoffs of the pandemic. The Brits having to queue abroad is Brexit but no-one here has argued blaming the airports unless I missed it.
    Last edited by piman2k; 22-09-2022 at 21:08.

  15. #355
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    Which is kind of my point....

    There is no evidence to link to, it hasn't happened... I can't say we are better or I'm alright etc.... I'm only making the point that we could be, we also very much could not be.

    I'm mearly trying to look for positives instead of dwelling on negatives

    None of us know what will happen, but it is what it is and there is the possibility something unforseen could work in our favour.

    We're only just really, really feeling the negative effects of utility privatisation 30yrs later, its probably going to be 30yrs before whatever outcome brexit settles at shall truly be felt, and a shit load can change in that time.

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  16. #356
    Guest DLowe's Avatar
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    So there's a legit yet hypothetical question...

    Had we remained and France left next year would we be in a better or worse position for channel freight?

    Again, what if we stayed in and Spain had enough? How would that play out for holidays?

    What if Germany leave and join Russia in a Europen takeover? They've tried it twice before...

    Had we stayed in and other countries left, how many would need to go before its degradation beyond rescue for the ones that remain?

    I'm not into it enough to spend hours trawling the Internet for evidence, but in my head I can see any of the above having a similar impact to us as what we are experiencing now, a non stop negotiation that wouldn't get settled amicably.

    We know that there is no plans for any others to leave anytime soon, but there is always a chance and had we remained, had the pandemic not happened.... who knows how the world would have evolved - the same as we don't know what will happen over the next 10 yrs. Isn't France extremely close to electing thier version of the national front? Who says next election won't completely change the political landscape and they leave?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe View Post
    its probably going to be 30yrs before whatever outcome brexit settles at shall truly be felt, and a shit load can change in that time.

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    In 30 years time I will be well on my way to being dead!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe View Post
    There is no evidence to link to, it hasn't happened... I can't say we are better or I'm alright etc.... I'm only making the point that we could be, we also very much could not be.
    I haven't asked you for evidence. I've asked you for reasons why you believe that. You can't evidence something that hasn't happened, I agree, but you keep saying you think we might be better off in the future if something happens and I want to know why you think that.

    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe View Post
    None of us know what will happen, but it is what it is and there is the possibility something unforseen could work in our favour.
    Again, why? What kind of things are you envisaging could happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe View Post
    its probably going to be 30yrs before whatever outcome brexit settles at shall truly be felt, and a shit load can change in that time.
    This is a dishonest position, effectively insinuating you knew it would take time to kick in. Nowhere in the Brexit campaign was it said that it would take 30 years to feel the difference, so I don't believe at all that when you voted this was an acceptable position. As Markcro said, most of us will be on our last legs by then.

    And let's say you're not being disingenuous, did you really vote to leave based on being prepared to wait 30 years before you knew what it would mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe
    there is always a chance and had we remained, had the pandemic not happened.... who knows how the world would have evolved
    This argument is stupid. I'm sorry mate, I'm not here to offend you but I have to call it out for what it is. We have demonstrated time and time again that the UK was economically, socially and politically stronger in the EU than it is out of it. So had we remained and there been some major change in the world it's perfectly reasonable to assume that we would have been better equipped to deal with it.

  19. #359
    Self confessed player of the pink oboe docwra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe View Post
    So there's a legit yet hypothetical question...

    Had we remained and ........
    ...... a giant meteor wiped out the whole southern hemisphere?
    ...... aliens landed and made us their slaves?
    ...... we discovered huge amounts of diamonds in Milton Keynes?
    ...... every human suddenly grew an extra arm?

    All about as relevant TBH, you cant make once in a lifetime, country affecting decisions on stuff youre totally unable to predict.

    FWIW Id imagine if another EU country left and we stayed in it would have about the same impact on UK as Brexit has on Belgium i.e. bugger all.
    Quote Originally Posted by scimmy ben
    I get the feeling that this would only work if we could pursuade Ernest Borgnine to drive the Isle of Wight to Portsmouth hovercraft.
    Quote Originally Posted by sprout
    After I shave my balls swarfega helps soothe, but means the hair grows back quite quickly, so give it a go

  20. #360
    Guest DLowe's Avatar
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    I fully agree we were stronger in the EU...

    Why do I think that we may have gotten out at the right time?

    Watch the news, look at the unrest in France, there were protests in Italy.... Ukraine war.

    The whole world is a sess pit, it's not unreasonable to believe that current systems will come to an end at some point, everyone is having a bad time and when there's unrest it will turn to change one way or another.

    There was a lot went unreported through our mainstream media pre pandemic and pre brexit, the likes of RT and Rumble showed a very different side to Europe than we saw.

    april- plenty of Frexit protests happening;

    https://rumble.com/v11h8e9-france-ye...marseille.html

    Dutch farmers didn't get much coverage in July iether:

    https://rumble.com/v1b50p6-dutch-far...-eu-rules.html

    Looks very familiar to the UK when it started before brexit, so no - I don't think it's an unreasonable assumption that others will also leave.

    So is it a reasonable idea that being first out to hopefully get a head start negotiation with others a good thing, of course it is.

    As I said, how long would you want to stay in if others leave? Would it be better?

    I don't know, but to me - if your in a company that's failing, your probably best to find another job before the market is flooded with everyone else when it goes under.

    I really dislike to quote from Adolf but it seems to suit the situation.... people are pissed off and want change, and when all you want is change the consequences are secondary, just like how Trump got in America, he wasn't better or good.. but he was needed to shake the system and successfull on the back of people's disdain for thier current situation.

    "I use emotion for many and save reason for the few"

    And whatever my personal beliefs regarding the EU, I do believe it will get worse as more small protests take place until they are in a similar place we were, the pandemic has slowed it with lock downs etc but it will gain momentum again.... and for me that is a reason to be ahead of the game and check out the hotel before the roof caves in.

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    Last edited by DLowe; 23-09-2022 at 11:35.

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