Brexit Benefits

[DLowe]

https://www.independent.co.uk/indepe...-b2113167.html

Seems youre now in a (not inconsiderable) minority of 16 percent. This is why links are helpful when youre trying to make a case.

I didn't say it was going well, It clearly isn't, tho is that more to do with the people driving it than the situation itself.....

And that's not the number of people who would still vote to leave, remember when it was all going on every media outlet was pushing the stay win out of every stream.

It's like Donald trump winning the US election, no one thinks its going to be good, but having been neglected for so long they will vote for anything counter to the norm just to see an effect, maybe by giving the system a shake it will make politicians and businesses be more decisive and follow through on promises

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[piman2k]

As many buisness are surely going down the pan due to pandemic and poor government as due to brexit...

Again, where is your proof of that? Where's your evidence? Mate, stop making these claims if you're not prepared to show the thread something that backs it up. As I write this I see docwra has said the very same thing.

We keep hitting you with straight articles and data that contradict almost everything you say, and yet you insist we're basically incorrect.

The pandemic was a gift to the Conservatives. Everything that was damaged by Brexit all of a sudden had a default, convenient excuse to have wafted over it.

So far as I can see what's made brexit worse than anything is politicians, the negotiations seem to have been shite and manned by people who didn't want what they are negotiating, and obviously the EU have made it as difficult as possible to leave, they will have to do that to discourage any others.

This is just not true. All the EU have done since day 1 is stick to the terms of the agreement that the UK negotiated. The UK government has spun the situation for years that the EU are being intransigent or punishing the UK, the reality is that the deal you were told was possible in the campaign wasn't possible at all. And the leave campaign knew it, so now they have to blame it on something else to stay in power.

You, I'm sorry to say, have read too much Sun, Express, Mail and Boris Johnson facebook and have eaten this up. It shows just how good the right have got a handle on social media.

I still believe that in the long term we are better not part of a group

Why though? Why do you think that?

we can negotiate and work with other countries

This is true, but it's also meaningless. I would throw the value of trade deals done by the UK solo against the trade lost from being out of the EU (and that covers effectively every economically developed country) but alas, I don't think you'd care.

I may be proven wrong....

You are being proven wrong daily by the ONS, the UK Government, the IMF and others. But you seem utterly unable to process that.

[docwra]

I didn't say it was going well, It clearly isn't

Could have fooled me:

As much as people hate to say it, from where I'm sitting its been great for people who want do more than push a mouse round for a living
It's not a slither, it's most of the pie..... just so happens to be the most deprived areas that are benefiting for a change
Another positive ... due to whatever brexit bulllshit thier employers made the job way more difficult but are now paying themselves better and the products are cheaper
Believe whatever you need to from the media, I have seen and been/continue to be involved with places that are thriving and have only really seen positives
Its all about perspective and at the moment mine is positive.

It's like Donald trump winning the US election, no one thinks its going to be good, but having been neglected for so long they will vote for anything counter to the norm just to see an effect

The difference is Trump has to face an election every 4 years, Brexit is one time thing. A one time thing that hasnt given any quantifiable benefits unless youre an electrician in the Midlands it seems.

[DLowe]

benefits unless youre an electrician in the Midlands it seems.

Or a joiner, brick layer, plumber, digger driver, unskilled labourer, sandwich shop, builders merchant, delivery driver ..........

The energy crisis may well put a stop to a lot of developments, but that can't be blamed on brexit.

As for the "links to prove" the lockdown etc is closing buisness as much as brexit, it really shouldn't need linking too as it's obvious to anybody that being shut for 2yrs will fubar a buisness that relies on passing trade and laying off/furlough of employees will obviously have a detrimental affect on buisness, Brexit will obviously have played a part, but equally or perhaps even more so this will have.... and it will be impossible to separate the multiple problems of the last 4yrs into individual causes of upset.



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[piman2k]

The energy crisis may well put a stop to a lot of developments, but that can't be blamed on brexit.

Absolutely no-one has inferred that the energy crisis has anything to do with Brexit.

As for the "links to prove" the lockdown etc is closing buisness as much as brexit, it really shouldn't need linking too as it's obvious

And there it is. Proof and evidence don't matter to you because it's "obvious".

You said:

As many buisness are surely going down the pan due to pandemic and poor government as due to brexit...

and you have absolutely not one shred of evidence to back this up.

Stop making claims if you don't have the evidence to back them up.

Edit - I've also posed several questions to you that you've just flat out ignored. Which is at least in keeping with the theme of not needing to back up what you say. So you're consistent, I'll give you that.

[DLowe]

I can't see any question ignored, other than the "post links"

I don't sit scouring the Internet for links, as I rarely look towards media oututlets, there is properganda from both sides to be found by anyone via Google, and you will find whatever you want to believe spun in a way you like...

As I say - from my seat things are looking better than they did 10yrs ago, the same for a lot of people in poor areas...

Above you try to make out as if I'm changing my mind by mis-quoting, using the statement "myself and my mates are better" then using another post where I say "It's not just me and my mates" both statements are true, as I said myself and mates are doing better and this is on the back of the local building trade increasing, and the only reason that is getting better is because more companies are requiring manufacturing and warehousing locations.

I don't need a newspaper article or Web page to tell me I'm doing better, my list of jobs and my co workers list show me were getting more than we did 5 / 10 or 20 yrs ago, this may not be the case where you are, but it is for us.

And as above, I know its not a good attitude "I'm alright Jack etc" but from the perspective of a labourer from Staffordshire who hasn't been able to afford a proper meal out or holiday since the 2008 collapse, you can not blame anyone for having that attitude.

I didn't say it was MY attitude, I say it is THE predominant attitude in ours and similar areas, and it's no wonder that's how it is. Remember a pot bank worker who has been made redundant repeatedly and re-hired over and over while watching a twat in a suit keep upgrading his range rover is very likely to resent people in those positions.

I was doing fine pre brexit, I'm doing fine post brexit and will be for as long as I have my health. But I do have a lot of very poor friends and people who have suddenly got opportunities which were not there before, this is what I have personally witnessed, no amount of links or articles can change the fact as this is what I have seen, your opinion is obviously different as is your experience, it doesn't make either right or wrong, but both are valid....

It will be years before anything has settled in a way that we will definitely know what is better and what is worse.

I haven't even said that I think Brexit was a good idea, only trying to point out that there may be a positive spin for some people, in a thread which seemed to only have been created to pan the whole idea and reinforce the idea that everything is wrong about it and anyone who wanted to leave is some kind of moron backwards red neck



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[DLowe]

Another way to look at it...

Imagine if we had the Internet when we joined the EU?

This thread has been created as an ego boost to the remainers as they're finding it easy to locate stories about the negative impacts, rewind to when we joined.

Imagine if you worked for British Leyland and now you were facing closure because German cars are imported cheaper and are now competitive priced.

You work for Johnson tiles and Spain is suddenly taking half or more of your trade,

Your a fisherman who now has a quoter to work to and new restrictions you never had before joining,

Polish and Romanian and other Eastern block workers are free to come over and house share to do your factory work for less hourly rate than you had and they post the money home instead of spending it in the local pub or shops...

Docwra for example could have been a buisness owner working with UK companies and been doing very well for 20yrs selling electrical components all over the country, then all of a sudden the common market comes in and Siemens are now taking all his buisness, there was enough cash going round before to pay his staff and make a profit, but now a cheaper guy is in town because thier currency isn't as strong and workers are cheaper, he's now losing out because someone else wants to make more profit from cheaper parts.... obviously its the way capitalism works, but there was adequate for all before but now an abundance for one, and at the end of the day the consumer will rarely see an realistic reflection in the cost of the end product.

Would there have been a thread entitled "joining the EU - benefits?"

There quite probably would have, as your circumstances would be different and it would have effects you can't compare to the modern way of working.... things will change for some they will improve for others they will be worse, the best thing in my opinion that we all can do, stay or go is to accept it and try to create a good relationship going forward instead of dwelling on what might have been.



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[piman2k]

I haven't asked you for links to show you're doing better. I've asked you for evidence that as many businesses are closing due to the pandemic as were due to Brexit.

Out of all your post this is the only thing that matters:

It will be years before anything has settled in a way that we will definitely know what is better and what is worse

Why is this all that matters?

Because it is the one thing you have been consistent about; the complete and total lack of acceptance of reality. I can't throw anymore data at you to show that the country is far worse off than it was, and I doubt Doc can point out to you another time that your local, narrow perspective is a socially irresponsible and unviable way of measuring the success of Brexit.

[DLowe]

I have not claimed it to be a success, I have not claimed it to be the best......

I have only said that there has been an improvement... at the moment for myself and others in my position...

What part do you not understand, you started this thread asking about positives from brexit... this is a positive, I've not said its THE positive I'm saying its a positive, I've been consistent so far as I've said all the way through that it's a matter of perspective, and mine is different than yours.

I'm not so eloquent in the way I can write, but this whole subject has kind of proved what I meant, the fact that remainers are equally as narrow minded as leavers, you had no intentions at any point to find a positive, the while point if this thread is some kind of ego boost for the remain crew and your just as stubborn as any brexiter...

My honest opinion is we would be getting fisted in every direction regardless of in/out or shake it all about, just accept that as fact and its convenient to blame brexit/pandemic/war etc. But there will always be a way we shall be done over and kept down unless your in the elite.

As I say above, when we joined first time round there would have been just as strong opinions floating round, I am too young to remember it... as such have known no other way buisness is conducted, but there certainly would have been people just as badly affected by joining as leaving is....

And my comments about being better out than in of the whole lot collapses..... why would it not be? I'm not claiming its better out now, but if other countries do follow and leave then would you rather be first off the boat or last when it sinks? No one knows what the future holds and it certainly is a possibility we can't rule out

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[docwra]

his thread has been created as an ego boost to the remainers as they're finding it easy to locate stories about the negative impacts, rewind to when we joined.

Its not, its a genuine attempt to see if *any* of the benefits that were promised have actually been realised.
Y'know, tariff free trade, £350m a week, no issue in Northern Ireland, amazing trade deals with RoW, sovereignty that we already had, improving human/animal welfare and rights, increasing profits for farms and fisheries. See any of that anywhere?

Docwra for example could have been a buisness owner working with UK companies and been doing very well for 20yrs selling electrical components all over the country, then all of a sudden the common market comes in and Siemens are now taking all his buisness, there was enough cash going round before to pay his staff and make a profit, but now a cheaper guy is in town because thier currency isn't as strong and workers are cheaper, he's now losing out because someone else wants to make more profit from cheaper parts.... obviously its the way capitalism works, but there was adequate for all before but now an abundance for one, and at the end of the day the consumer will rarely see an realistic reflection in the cost of the end product.

This is a fair point ....... but its an argument not to join the EU in the first place, not to leave it when it was already working pretty well. It also highlights how being in the EU opened up opportunities, around 80pc of my business is with the EU, Ive only been able to maintain that level because I incorporated an Irish company preBrexit.

Would there have been a thread entitled "joining the EU - benefits?"

Another fair point, but probably better for my argument than yours ......... off the top of my head you have freedom to work and live in 28 other countries, free medical care, welfare, pensions in each. You have the ECHR, you have vastly better trade opportunities and a much bigger presence when it comes to negotiation on a global scale and better financial integration for tax, FX, share trading etc.
Security against mad Russians and terrorists would undoubtedly be better, far more opportunities for classroom and cultural education particularly in sciences. Protection against crazy right wing governments that deport refugees to Rwanda, pump shit into the rivers and remove your right to protest among other things.

things will change for some they will improve for others they will be worse

Youre genuinely the only person who has tried to tell me things are better since we left. Seriously, respect to you for continuing to stand your ground, but surely you can see from this thread and in general youre in a massive minority as on a national scale there arent any actual benefits from Brexit?

[piman2k]

the fact that remainers are equally as narrow minded as leavers, you had no intentions at any point to find a positive, the while point if this thread is some kind of ego boost for the remain crew and your just as stubborn as any brexiter...

This is twoddle. It isn't that the average remain voter refuses to find a positive, it's that the average remain voter struggles to find any positives.

If you could give me a point that I couldn't refute with either a cursory glance at the news or a slightly more in-depth look at the stats behind it, I'd be on your side.

But like Doc has listed, none of the headlines have been delivered.

The campaign was fought on controlling borders, controlling money, controlling laws, funding the NHS, saving fishermen and doing free trade deals with the world.

Last time I checked, 6 years after the vote, there was no sizeable impact on immigration. Our money is worth less than it was before. We copied and pasted the EU law book and the only noticeable changes to UK laws have been those that REDUCE workers rights (your rights). The £350m for the NHS vanished, so much so that the Tories tried to put up your NI to make up the short fall and now Truss is singing from the rooftops that she won't do it at all, like it's some sort of benefit to you. The fishing industry has effectively collapsed and the free trade deals we have done with other countries barely scratch the surface of repairing the damage to our trade done because of reduced volume with the EU.

The campaign wasn't fought on whether or not a few people in one industry benefitted, though it's important to stress that I am happy you're finding prosperity. But all a national level it is a drop in the bathtub, and in this analogy, the bathtub has a whopping great big leak.

[DLowe]

I don't believe any of it has been done right or any promises have been kept......

But to say brexit is the only factor in the modern climate is not reasonable either, there is obviously other issues that will effect buisness and economy.

I'm measly trying to make the point that whatever anyone thought it would be, it can't ever be..... not just because of lying politicians or procedures, but because the entire world is now no longer what it was.

I'm making a point from "the other side" as to why a lot of people in the North and poor areas voted to leave, ands that's because its been pretty shit and on the decline for decades, since around the same time we joined the common market and thatchers government went on the rampage against our industries and sold off our services.... if you currently make a living by commanding a spreadsheet and phone - then your perspective is very different to someone dragging themselves on a bus at 6am to paint plates in a factory for minimum wage.

These people have been pissed off for years with no way to vent thier frustrations, and ghis is seen as an opportunity to shake up the system, rightly or wrongly - when you have nothing to start with, there's not much to lose.

Brexit was not given a fair chance in my opinion as its been constantly argued about with passion from every side and angle and with the amount of obstacles put before anyone trying to resolve any part is it any wonder?

Like Doc says above, my argument is about not joining in the first place, its different now we are used to the way it was working..... what I'm saying is that given time we will get used to a new way of working - this may be better, it may not... but none of us will know for a good 10 yrs at least.

I haven't said brexit is a good thing, I have said it MAY prove to be good, depending what happens in Europe over the next decade. It very well might not be, but that is not something that we can judge yet.

There have been too many world wide issues to have a clear understanding of what it will be like since we have left, not since we voted, but since we actually came out.

Again the positives I am experiencing are not for everyone, and probably won't last for us..... but make hay while the sun shines and all....

If stock markets were booming and money was flying round London, but every northern factory had shut and half the country was on the dole - I wager the headlines and media would report it different.

My whole point is we should accept what has been done and all pull towards a common goal instead of still squabbling over a vote that was cast and HAS been set in motion.

One plus point I suppose is there are more millionaires made in times of crisis than when everything is running smooth

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[piman2k]

My whole point is we should accept what has been done and all pull towards a common goal instead of still squabbling over a vote that was cast and HAS been set in motion

This isn't your whole point at all.

But as long as Brexit voters (and I'm not just looking at you, I'm being general) continue to lie and pretend that what they voted for hasn't had a negative effect on the country then there is no way forward. It sounds brutal but it's just life.

[DLowe]

It has been negative overall, I have seen a slight benefit in the short term.....

It may get better, it may not...

But it has only been negative to what you have been acustom too since we joined, which to a lot of people has been negative since we joined and now might be seeing a slight positive.

The point is that when it's all settled there will be a new normal, that different people will benefit from, probably not the majority, but some...

And as the title is brexit benefits, then there will be a few that benefit from it.....

Before we joined some people thrived, when we joined - other people thrived ... and now we have left a different people will thrive...

It's a big shit cocktail and different ingredients float at different times.

Sometimes the majority, sometimes the minority.

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[piman2k]

For goodness sake, I don't know how else to say it. You don't get to say you've seen a benefit until you can prove that it's a direct result of Brexit.

[DLowe]

I could go on the Internet and find some statistics to show manufacturing is up in the last 12 months.... but is that because of brexit penalising imports, or is it the pandemic showing us that we should not rely so heavily on foreign imports??

I could go and find some reports saying Eastern European labour has declined since brexit... or is that the ukrane war?

I'm sure if you looked the results will be biased to what you believe. As such why should they be treated any better than an opinion?

Remember right up until the last vote was counted every statistic said remain was wiping the floor with leave voters - acurate wasn't it?

Just 2 days ago the Queen was comfortable in Balmoral, 10secs later they reported she was dead.

Instead of being fed by someone else I prefer to go with what I'm actually experiencing, not what I'm being told I'm experiencing.

We only have to look for ourselves things such as the yellow vest protests in France that were massively under reported, or the lock down protests in London with very little comparative air time to the BLM or Extinction Rebellion protests that were of a very similar size.

When you say how has brexit directly been the cause of a benefit, I pose the same question right back, how has brexit directly been a negative to you how has it personally made your life worse in a way hhat has not also been contributed by pandemic or war aswell.




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[piman2k]

Eight paragraphs to avoid answering the question.

Instead of saying you "could" go and get these links, this data, just go and get it. If it's as concrete as you infer then I've no doubt it will be easy to accept.

how has brexit directly been a negative to you how has it personally made your life worse

At this point you're not even reading my posts. I have spent the last 3 days pointing out to you that personal experience is not indicative of the state of the nation.

All you're doing is avoiding getting this information that you say is probably out there. And that I say doesn't exist. You're wasting time and filling words on a page.

[DLowe]

I'm saying that at the moment I'm not seeing negative effects from brexit on the scale your reporting, and if you remove yourself from Internet research and media - do you even otice we have left?

I went on eurostar the other month, it was no different than it was in 2012 when I went on it. I go to the supermarket and I can still get German sausage and Italian tomatoes, the pub still sells my local craft beer. A set of brake discs for my touareg were the same price when I finally changed them in 2021 as they were when I first looked in 2017...

Prices have gone up in shops, is that due to brexit or pandemic or war.... probably all 3

People such as Docwra are seeing negatives and I can see thier side of the issues, but from where I am there are people winning and losing in the current climate.

This reiterates the point above, that pre EU peoples buisness models would have been just as messed up as they have been by leaving, remember that a lot of leave voters were buisness owners pre EU.

The changed thier mind after the fact argument - is that really how it appears too?? People have not changed thier mind due to the idea of brexit, they have changed thier mind due to the shit show any kind of negotiations have turned into.

Had there not been other issues than I'm sure the processes would be a lot better than they are, but we are where we are at.

If you are not suffering as a direct result, then efforts would be better made trying to sort the issues instead of looking to the past.



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[piman2k]

I'm saying that at the moment I'm not seeing negative effects from brexit on the scale your reporting, and if you remove yourself from Internet research and media - do you even otice we have left?

Yes. I need to buy a Visa when I travel into the EU. I have significant additional import duties on components that I didn't have before which are eating into my companies budget. And I may not be able to retire to an EU country like I have always aspired to because I may have to prove an income far in excess of what my pensions may provide.

Prices have gone up in shops, is that due to brexit or pandemic or war.... probably all 3

Probably all 3 as you say. But imagine if there were only 2 factors that had forced prices up rather than 3. Perhaps at that point we wouldn't have the highest rate of inflation in Europe. Wouldn't that be nice.

People such as Docwra are seeing negatives and I can see thier side of the issues, but from where I am there are people winning and losing in the current climate

And once again, not even sure it's worth pointing out anymore, personal testimony is all well and true but is not a valid indication of the net health of the state of the nation.

This reiterates the point above, that pre EU peoples buisness models would have been just as messed up as they have been by leaving

I don't understand this point. Can you write it again?

remember that a lot of leave voters were buisness owners pre EU

Unquantifiable, spurious nonsense once again. Show me anything that backs that up beyond the generalised polling of fishing.

The changed thier mind after the fact argument - is that really how it appears too?? People have not changed thier mind due to the idea of brexit, they have changed thier mind due to the shit show any kind of negotiations have turned into.

Again, you are completely wrong. The Brexit we got was the only possible way Brexit could have happened. The remain campaign shouted this from the rooftopsThere is literally no point in eating the headlines of the Express and saying that the negotiations were garbage or the EU were out to punish us. The things that are being negotiated now are things we said all along were not possible to sort. The deal was done almost 3 years ago and was written by us. What you're still not grasping is that the government now says that implementing that deal in full, as it should have been done, would be economically damaging to the UK and thus we are continuing to renegotiate the deal.

[piman2k]

If you are not suffering as a direct result, then efforts would be better made trying to sort the issues instead of looking to the past

For many remainers, the best possible way to sort this is to get access to the single market, that almost every voice on the Leave campaign said we would never leave. Another good old lie