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Thread: Brexit Benefits

  1. #81
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    That’s a terrible analogy. Because we got back in free trade way more than we ever put in for a membership fee.

    Before you even talk about the rebate or the subsidies.

  2. #82
    Guest arry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post
    That’s a terrible analogy. Because we got back in free trade way more than we ever put in for a membership fee.

    Before you even talk about the rebate or the subsidies.
    So is it better than you work for an abusive pimp than to go it alone as a prossie and have less income / protection?

    I know 'sovereignty' is mocked but there are more facets to Brexit than just the economic one - and overwhelmingly I'd say the majority that voted leave did so with economics at the back of their mind not the front. It might be why it's hard to process it when it's viewed only through one lens.

  3. #83
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    I can appreciate that mate, but go outside of the economic scope (which is by far the powerhouse that keeps the country turning) and I can’t think of anything we can do now that we couldn’t do before.

  4. #84
    Self confessed player of the pink oboe docwra's Avatar
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    Errr yeah ........... if the nightclub overcharged us so much then why are we paying twice as much at the off license?
    If the Mafia run the nightclub why did we have more control than any other member on which rules we did and didnt follow?
    If the nightclub was that shit why did near as damn it half of us want to keep going?

    And if "sovereignty" is telling UK businesses they have to incorporate in Europe to survive or paying a Japanese company £80m to keep their manufacturing here we can probably do without it.

    As I think Ive said here previously, there might be some long term benefits, not least if the EU really does "implode" but short term benefits are pretty ****ing hard to identify, biased analogies or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by scimmy ben
    I get the feeling that this would only work if we could pursuade Ernest Borgnine to drive the Isle of Wight to Portsmouth hovercraft.
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    After I shave my balls swarfega helps soothe, but means the hair grows back quite quickly, so give it a go

  5. #85
    Guest Clouder_sx's Avatar
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    Figures suggest the UK is ahead of many EU countries with its vaccination program due to getting approval sorted quicker. Which may ultimately save some lives.

    A Brexit benefit?

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clouder_sx View Post
    Figures suggest the UK is ahead of many EU countries with its vaccination program due to getting approval sorted quicker. Which may ultimately save some lives.

    A Brexit benefit?
    A big, fat, total nope. And more bullshit from the mouth of Jacob Rees-Mogg. It is actually BECAUSE of EU membership.

    https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-vaccine-brexit/

  7. #87
    Guest Clouder_sx's Avatar
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    Ah cool, had a feeling it might have been another political load of tosh.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post
    A big, fat, total nope. And more bullshit from the mouth of Jacob Rees-Mogg. It is actually BECAUSE of EU membership.

    https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-vaccine-brexit/
    I'll comment on this as I know people at all stages of the vaccine project (from R&D to regulatory CMC) and have good contacts to the regulators (in the EMA & MHRA).

    Whilst is was possible for all members of the EU to act as the UK did no other did so. The only reason the MHRA acted as it did was because the UK was leaving the EU.
    So whilst technically is it not because of Brexit (as anyone could do it), policitcally it was only was only possible due to Brexit.

    There was massive pressure on the EMA to approve the vaccine, so much so they moved the approval meeting a whole 8 days forward.

    Also the UK was politically able to opt out of the EU vaccine purchase scheme to ensure we had secured sufficent doses of all the options as soon as possible. Again technically possible in the EU, but politically only possible due to Brexit.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slamz View Post
    Unfortunately, you are correct. Due to the ****ing ridiculous VAT changes our government has brought in, JDM Distro now have the collect the VAT on the item, then send it to our tax office, and pay for the privilege



    Doesn't work like that anymore, whereas last year, you'd pay **** all from Ireland, or you'd pay import duty+Vat on things from outside the EU, our bright sparks in government decided to change this, so the seller now collects the vat, which is why foreign companies are already stopping sales to uk residents, as it costs them money. This change was pushed through hidden behind the Brexit bullshit going on, so the vasy majority of people seem to know nothing about it, worryingly but not surprisingly.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/public...1-january-2021

    Also, Steinhart ship their German made watches direct from Germany. JDM Distro have imported to Ireland from Japan (paying relevant fees) and now are importing to the UK from Ireland, meaning more fees.
    Changes to VAT collection is an EU directive, all EU companies will have to collect the VAT in the selling country (think it's in Jun) going forward, to make companies pay tax in the country they sell to the customer. It's to prevent tax evasion by declaring the profits in low tax country I seem to recall. I'm not commerical so didn't pay full attention to the powerpoint we had on it...

    Here's a guide - https://www.avalara.com/vatlive/en/v...t-package.html

    My company (rather the one I work for) has been switching customers over for the past year. They used to billed from the Germany head office, now they are billed from the plc. It's more of a pain for the UK as they introduced the rules early.
    Last edited by jimbo; 25-01-2021 at 16:13.

  10. #90
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    That’s tenuous reasoning for the vaccine speed at best. The point is, whether or not the U.K. did what it did sooner than everyone else for political reasoning is irrelevant. Hancock, Johnson and Rees-Mogg insinuated that the U.K. acted faster because it was not bound by EU approvals processes and said on air that it was because of new U.K. processes.

    Which was a lie. Our approvals process followed the EU directives to the letter and this was available to every other country and you said. So to attribute it as a benefit of Brexit is as disingenuous as their statements.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post
    Thatís tenuous reasoning for the vaccine speed at best. The point is, whether or not the U.K. did what it did sooner than everyone else for political reasoning is irrelevant. Hancock, Johnson and Rees-Mogg insinuated that the U.K. acted faster because it was not bound by EU approvals processes and said on air that it was because of new U.K. processes.

    Which was a lie. Our approvals process followed the EU directives to the letter and this was available to every other country and you said. So to attribute it as a benefit of Brexit is as disingenuous as their statements.
    It's not disengenuous at all - it's a fact from people involved in making the vaccine, registering the vaccine and approving the vaccine that it only happened as the UK was leaving the EU.

    It's also true that the EU is now looking to block the export of vaccines to non-EU countries to get their share. So the EU is actively looking to take vaccine from countries that acted quickly and ordered enough while the EU twiddled its thumbs.

    Some other Brexit upsides - off the hook of debt mutilisation, no direct EU leaved taxes and no share of the CoVid bail out find (aprox £80Bn for the UK).

    Also, the current issues are not unsurprising as there has been 40 years of integration. It's a pain but it will/should get easier and I do have sympathy for people that are being hit by it. However, the Irish Road Haulage association is now complaining that disruption is affecting them and is because of the over officous application of regualtion (loads rejected for a missing full stop for example) and the EU themselves have said that the disruption can go if the UK drops plans to diverge (so 1 - not acting in ggod faith as per the agreement, 2 - attempting to coerce the UKi into doing what's it told).

    Link 1 - https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...-say-1.4464291
    link 2 - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b...lays-s2kz9tfk7
    link 3 - https://apnews.com/article/europe-ur...2baa108df91a57
    link 4- https://institutdelors.eu/wp-content...on_Eisl_EN.pdf

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    It's not disengenuous at all - it's a fact from people involved in making the vaccine, registering the vaccine and approving the vaccine that it only happened as the UK was leaving the EU.
    But that's not the statement that was made. The statement that was made is that it happened QUICKER directly because we left the EU.

    Which isn't true. Because we followed an EU process. It's irrelevant if others didn't. We did something that was available to every other country in the union. Brexit didn't give us another tool to use.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post
    But that's not the statement that was made. The statement that was made is that it happened QUICKER directly because we left the EU.

    Which isn't true. Because we followed an EU process. It's irrelevant if others didn't. We did something that was available to every other country in the union. Brexit didn't give us another tool to use.
    If Brexit wasn't happening the UK would not have acted on it's own. The approval and purchase of the vaccines was only possible due to Brexit. You can believe it not...

    I'm happy to give my linked in details to a neutral and they can check to see if I might have the connections I say I have, you provide yours and they can check your pharma connections to judge your insight, then they can come back and say if my version or your version is more likely. Sound ok to you?

    Any comments on the EU threatening vaccine supplies? Or the IRHA article?
    Last edited by jimbo; 26-01-2021 at 10:51.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    If Brexit wasn't happening the UK would not have acted on it's own.
    And that's the difference between you and I in this discussion. That's a positive claim that you can't prove because you don't know. Whereas I'm not making a positive claim to the contrary, just pointing out what's available.

    You suspect, you feel, sure, I appreciate and respect that that is your position. But you can't prove that the UK government would have acted any differently if we were still members of the EU.

    The original point made was that the UK approved the vaccine faster because of Brexit. Jacob Rees-Mogg and Matt Hancock went on record saying our approval scheme was faster. And that was disingenuous because it failed to make clear that our approvals scheme is/was exactly the same as that of the EU.

    I don't know enough about your other points so I won't comment and pretend I do, but I will not let this go. Because this has been the last 5 years; contesting Brexit claims that can't be proven and then having the conversation moved along before it's accepted.

  15. #95
    Self confessed player of the pink oboe docwra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    If Brexit wasn't happening the UK would not have acted on it's own. The approval and purchase of the vaccines was only possible due to Brexit. You can believe it not...
    You dont need a neutral, hes right. While it may not be a direct effect of the Brexit agreement and certainly not one that could have been predicted it wouldnt have happened if we were still in the EU.
    Piman is right in saying that Rees Mogg tried to take credit for something that wasnt true (surprise surprise) but that doesnt mean the above is wrong. That said ........

    Any comments on the EU threatening vaccine supplies? Or the IRHA article?
    The EU wouldnt be threatening to limit supplies if we were still in it and then Haulage issues wouldnt be there either, these are direct effects of Brexit.
    Lets be honest, we have had 4 years to figure out how to handle this, its not down to the EU to work it out for us as that wouldnt be sovereignty, would it?
    Quote Originally Posted by scimmy ben
    I get the feeling that this would only work if we could pursuade Ernest Borgnine to drive the Isle of Wight to Portsmouth hovercraft.
    Quote Originally Posted by sprout
    After I shave my balls swarfega helps soothe, but means the hair grows back quite quickly, so give it a go

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post
    And that's the difference between you and I in this discussion. That's a positive claim that you can't prove because you don't know. Whereas I'm not making a positive claim to the contrary, just pointing out what's available.
    I know the people doing the registration, I have spoken to them about this, and it wouldn't have happened without Brexit.
    The procedure exisited under EU law, that is correct, but without Brexit it couldn't happen.

    Ask yourself why, with thousands of people dying every day across the EU, did no other country act faster if it was possible as part of the schemes.

    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post
    The original point made was that the UK approved the vaccine faster because of Brexit. Jacob Rees-Mogg and Matt Hancock went on record saying our approval scheme was faster. And that was disingenuous because it failed to make clear that our approvals scheme is/was exactly the same as that of the EU.
    Asks friends at manufacturing site/regulators "could you have done this without Brexit?"
    Friends "no, wish my country would though"

    As said, happy to share my linked in profile with a neutral to back it up...

    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post
    I don't know enough about your other points so I won't comment and pretend I do, but I will not let this go. Because this has been the last 5 years; contesting Brexit claims that can't be proven and then having the conversation moved along before it's accepted.
    On this point though you have no additional insight to what's behind things but are happy to accept a "you could in the EU articale" as it suits your position. I'm happy to back my view up, you either accept it (you wont as don't fit your view) or not.

    To me your position seems to be a default of "EU good" when clearly not everything about the EU is good (see vaccine grab currently). You don't have to know every detail to have an opinion - you've plenty of opinions on other things Brexit/EU related. You also default to "UK bad". For example the internal market bill - it was a reaction to the threat by Barnier to block food to N.I (stated by Frost in his tweats - did you ever find the clarification/denial btw?). Pro-EU people were happy to go at the UK gov but ignored the EU threat to starve a part of the UK. The comments from the IRHA seem to indicate that the EU are still trying to leverage food supplies to push the UK into what the EU wants.

  17. #97
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    Has this really turned into 'my pal knows more than you and LinkedIn proves it'?

    My LinkedIn is full of ****s I don't know, it doesn't prove I know more about anything.

  18. #98
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    I honestly have no idea what your malfunction is jimbo. I don’t care what your mates at the magical vaccine factory say or your drinking buddies at the paperwork palace.

    Authorising the use of the vaccine in the U.K. was done with EU rules available to every member state.

    We did not use a British approvals scheme like JRM and MH went on record and said.

    Anyone could have done what we did.

    It’s really no more complicated than that.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo
    On this point though you have no additional insight to what's behind things but are happy to accept a "you could in the EU articale" as it suits your position. I'm happy to back my view up, you either accept it (you wont as don't fit your view) or not.
    That's almost what I said. I said I didn't know enough about the other topics to comment, which is accurate. And I am happy to accept that "you could in the EU" in this case because, guess what, you could in the EU.

    You cannot bluster your way around the fact that what you've said isn't right. And me not being an expert in pharmaceutical approvals doesn't change that.

    I don't need to prove who I am, who I know, what I do or what my connections are because they're irrelevant. I don't need expertise in the field of vaccine approvals to be able to read trusted fact checking websites.
    Last edited by piman2k; 29-01-2021 at 07:06.

  20. #100
    Guest arry's Avatar
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    The EU - true colours coming to the fore?

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