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Thread: Brexit Benefits

  1. #381
    Guest DLowe's Avatar
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    "You shouldn't be allowed to vote if you don't understand what you're voting for. The idea that everyone should get a say just because they live here is dumb. I live here but they don't let me drive F1 cars because I'm unqualified. If people don't understand what the political choices they make can achieve then why should they get a say?"

    I'm saying that people have been in such a bad position for years they want change and they don't care where it comes from so long as something happens.

    Do you expect people in a worse position than yourself to just accept it? Do they not get a vote because thier education was different or not as good as yours? Is thier life experience not valid because they were not brought up to worry about politics or global trade?

    No they just want to get up, do thier repetitive job, get paid, go pub and go home. If your packing a kiln full of plates then you don't concern yourself with the European Market or affairs, you dont worry about an extra couple quid on a holiday you might get to go on once every 5 years and will be paying for on credit for 2 of them.... but you do concern yourself when you go to the break room and only half the people speak the same language as you do, you do concern yourself when your on the same wage as 10yrs ago because the company can keep hiring in people who will work for less and you do concern yourself when you can not pay your bills, you go to the local town and every one in cardboard boxs and doorways is English speaking young and able workers and when you walk out of town you constantly see Eastern Europeans setting up in council housing. That is why the vote was to leave, not through rational thoughts but through emotion of a shit existence.

    That is why stoke on trent and similar places had a majority leave, its because the people have been deprived for so long they see people in suits as the enemy, the ones making a fortune off thier hard work. They see bankers and CEOs as the people making thier life worse, taking profits while they stagnate and gradually afford less and less.

    The whole point of my argument, there will have been a lot of people that voted to leave because of the political lies, but do you honestly believe anything a career politician says? I certainly don't, but there will have been a vast amount of people who didn't even consider the policy's, they just want change and that's a way to get it or at least something different.

    This goes back to my point of why trump was voted in, why the national parties are gaining momentum..... hell, its even why the Natzis got into Germany all those years ago.

    And this is my point to why we should try to find a positive in what has been done, it can't be changed.



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  2. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe View Post
    Do you expect people in a worse position than yourself to just accept it? Do they not get a vote because thier education was different or not as good as yours? Is thier life experience not valid because they were not brought up to worry about politics or global trade?
    I haven't said anything about people's level of education or life experience, it's irrelevant. If you do not understand the implications of what your vote has and you aren't able to critically think, then you should not be allowed to exercise it in my opinion. In the same way that I'm not allowed to use certain machinery at my company just because I work there regardless of being unqualified to do so.

    The leave vote is now polling in the minority and has been for almost a year, meaning people have changed their minds, meaning people have got what they voted for and don't like it, meaning they didn't understand what they were voting for.

    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe View Post
    but you do concern yourself when you go to the break room and only half the people speak the same language as you do
    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe View Post
    and when you walk out of town you constantly see Eastern Europeans setting up in council housing
    Well, you know what I'm going to say to this already don't you

    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe View Post
    you go to the local town and every one in cardboard boxs and doorways is English speaking young and able workers
    But this isn't an EU problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe View Post
    That is why the vote was to leave, not through rational thoughts but through emotion of a shit existence.
    But this is the very point you're missing. I agree with you that there was a lot of emotion in the leave vote, but it was almost all because of lies. And if voters had been able to exercise any critical thinking skills and realise that it was a pure manipulation then we likely wouldn't have voted to leave.

    Let's also not pretend that it was a landslide.

    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe View Post
    The whole point of my argument, there will have been a lot of people that voted to leave because of the political lies, but do you honestly believe anything a career politician says?
    I take it back, you haven't missed the political lies point which is good I don't believe anything a lot of politicians say in the Government, but I had the grey-matter in place to not believe the Leave.EU and Leave campaigns because they weren't a government in waiting. They were making promises in a campaign that they could never keep and yet those people who voted out of emotion chose to lap it up.

    This goes back to my point of why trump was voted in, why the national parties are gaining momentum..... hell, its even why the Natzis got into Germany all those years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe View Post
    And this is my point to why we should try to find a positive in what has been done, it can't be changed.
    This was why I set the topic up, to see if there were any. But you still haven't been able to give me one except for "Well, if the whole EU collapses one day, we will already be out so that's good"

  3. #383
    Guest DLowe's Avatar
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    I agree with you for the most part, remember I'm not saying its my view, I do interact with hundreds of people during the course of my work, from millionaires to factory workers and unemployed...

    I'm just putting across from my experience and conversations why these people would have voted to leave and echoes of what I am told daily....

    Unfortunately I don't believe most people know what they vote for at any election or ballot, I wager the majority vote for what thier parents do or what the local areas "feel" is more so, than understanding the politics, and by that measure then you would remove the right to vote from many.

    I know as well as you that Eastern Europeans in council housing and jobs is not the fault if the EU, but a lot of people don't, they have been fed farages posters and Edl Facebook posts and believe it to be the case.

    I'm saying that we're all the same across europeband if happened here then its reasonable to assume it could be on its way in other countries, as the elections seem to show.

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  4. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe
    Unfortunately I don't believe most people know what they vote for at any election or ballot
    Then why are they allowed to vote at all? That's my whole point. What meaning does a vote have it if it is uneducated?

    If half the country voted to cut their left arm off, I'm entirely certain that people would say "Are you sure?". No-one did that with Brexit (despite people like JRM saying, in the day, that any referendum would need to be done twice, once to start with and once to decide on the deal offered).

    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe
    I'm saying that we're all the same across europeband if happened here then its reasonable to assume it could be on its way in other countries, as the elections seem to show
    No, it's not reasonable. Because both of the countries you keep bringing up are polling as significantly pro-EU.

  5. #385
    Self confessed player of the pink oboe docwra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe View Post
    I'm saying if the world's biggest trading block starts to break up and some of the big players such as France & Italy leave would we not be in a better position to deal with them individually than when they were part of the group?
    Probably not TBH as the longer we are out the more our legislation changes from what France and Italy currently have in place, i.e. EU regulations making it harder to reintegrate.
    There would also be nothing stopping us leaving at the same time as them, its like getting to the movie* 5 years early to make sure you get the best seats
    *movie that may not actually be shown

    but you do concern yourself when you go to the break room and only half the people speak the same language as you do, you do concern yourself when your on the same wage as 10yrs ago because the company can keep hiring in people who will work for less and you do concern yourself when you can not pay your bills
    Valid point, but should we really be accepting racism and xenophobia as a justifiable reason to leave the EU?
    The presence of Europeans was not what was keeping wages down, factor in inflation and since weve left despite getting paid more you arent actually better off and the bills issue is ironic, leaving the EU has allowed the Tories more freedom to **** the less well off than they had before.

    I will say fair play to you man, youre still the only person that Ive seen who will make a case for the other side ......... but the reality is that 2 years on there are no identifiable benefits. Maybe something will happen that changes that but I cant see what that might be, and seeing as we wouldnt have lost anything by staying in until that "something" occurs its a bit of a bum deal all round.
    Quote Originally Posted by scimmy ben
    I get the feeling that this would only work if we could pursuade Ernest Borgnine to drive the Isle of Wight to Portsmouth hovercraft.
    Quote Originally Posted by sprout
    After I shave my balls swarfega helps soothe, but means the hair grows back quite quickly, so give it a go

  6. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by docwra
    but the reality is that 2 years on there are no identifiable benefits
    Boom. 20 pages and we're there

    We lost track of the benefits aspect of the thread anyway ha

  7. #387
    Self confessed player of the pink oboe docwra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docwra View Post
    the bills issue is ironic, leaving the EU has allowed the Tories more freedom to **** the less well off than they had before.
    Ironic doesnt cover it, Ive just had a mail from my Employment lawyers:

    The government has presented a new bill focused on scrapping all EU drive labour rules by December 2023. This would include:

    TUPE
    The Working Time Regulations, e.g.
    Limits on the working week (48 hours)
    Holiday Pay
    The Part-time and Fixed-term Worker Regulations
    The Agency Worker Regulations

    Bearing in mind this is coming from a law firm (always bastards) that looks after recruitment companies (always even bigger bastards) the second paragraph is really quite illustrative:

    The government represents all of us, but a good number of us may feel that at least some of these regulations, whilst making life harder for employers, actually improved our society. There is little doubt that employment standards improved throughout the first decade of this century. We wonder where the evidence is that people want these all scrapped or that we want to go back to a previous existence?
    Quote Originally Posted by scimmy ben
    I get the feeling that this would only work if we could pursuade Ernest Borgnine to drive the Isle of Wight to Portsmouth hovercraft.
    Quote Originally Posted by sprout
    After I shave my balls swarfega helps soothe, but means the hair grows back quite quickly, so give it a go

  8. #388
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    JRM's obsession with reducing the working rights of the population continues to baffle me.

  9. #389
    Member sx rider's Avatar
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    This tread reminds me of this....

    Fable: DON'T ARGUE WITH DONKEYS

    The donkey said to the tiger:

    - "The grass is blue".

    The tiger replied:

    - "No, the grass is green."

    The discussion heated up, and the two decided to submit him to arbitration, and for this they went before the lion, the King of the Jungle.

    Already before reaching the forest clearing, where the lion was sitting on his throne, the donkey began to shout:

    - "His Highness, is it true that the grass is blue?".

    The lion replied:

    - "True, the grass is blue."

    The donkey hurried and continued:

    - "The tiger disagrees with me and contradicts and annoys me, please punish him."

    The king then declared:

    - "The tiger will be punished with 5 years of silence."

    The donkey jumped cheerfully and went on his way, content and repeating:

    - "The Grass Is Blue"...

    The tiger accepted his punishment, but before he asked the lion:

    - "Your Majesty, why have you punished me?, after all, the grass is green."

    The lion replied:

    - "In fact, the grass is green."

    The tiger asked:
    - "So why are you punishing me?".

    The lion replied:

    - "That has nothing to do with the question of whether the grass is blue or green.

    The punishment is because it is not possible for a brave and intelligent creature like you to waste time arguing with a donkey, and on top of that come and bother me with that question."

    The worst waste of time is arguing with the fool and fanatic who does not care about truth or reality, but only the victory of his beliefs and illusions. Never waste time on arguments that don't make sense...

    There are people who, no matter how much evidence and evidence we present to them, are not in the capacity to understand, and others are blinded by ego, hatred and resentment, and all they want is to be right even if they are not.

    When ignorance screams, intelligence is silent. Your peace and quiet are worth more.

  10. #390
    Guest DLowe's Avatar
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    That is a much better way of putting what I have been intending...

    I'm trying to see positives that have yet to appear, its nothing to do with what I think regarding the EU, it's trying to find a way it could have been a benefit..... at the moment the country as a whole is worse off, but I have seen a lot of growth in my area - not disputing its worse overall, but I do know people who are doing a lot better than thay were.

    I've never said it WAS a good idea to leave, I'm saying it MIGHT be if ......

    I remember reading an article a while ago that said during economic hardships and recession there are more millionaires made than during booms - as in what less wealth there is to go round goes more to individuals than shareholders..... so I suppose it will all be positive for some people.

    Just trying to poke through the curtain and let some light in

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  11. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe
    That is a much better way of putting what I have been intending...
    I'm not entirely sure you and I are reading his post in the same way

    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe
    I remember reading an article a while ago that said during economic hardships and recession there are more millionaires made than during booms - as in what less wealth there is to go round goes more to individuals than shareholders..... so I suppose it will all be positive for some people.
    LOL

  12. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by docwra View Post
    This was one of my biggest concerns with Brexit, the EU had always acted as a handbrake to crazy right wing tory ideas.
    ?
    Think we have just experienced it with Liz and Kwazi (Crazy?)

    She wasn't happy with killing the Queen, she wants to F*** the economy too

  13. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post

    That doesn't make any sense. Government didn't stop and you have in fact had 3 Governments since the referendum.
    Unfortunately it did. Spineless Cameron quit because he didn't get the result he wanted and left it to May, who tried but didn't get any backing and left it to the village idiot to proclaim he had done it

    And look at where we are now.

    Grass isn't always greener ....

  14. #394
    Guest DLowe's Avatar
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    The sad part of the employment law changes after leaving the EU is that we were world leaders in employee rights before joining, such as the factories act, health and safety at work act and electricity at work act were all put in motion before we had any EU influence.

    Granted the HS and EAW didn't come into law until the year after we joined, but were drafted and put in motion a number of years before.

    The same for the bitish standard being a world recognised symbol of quality, now gone

    And it's not to be mistaken for an anti-EU statement, but one does have to question how far we could have gone on our own without getting involved with them, we were on the right path and we would have iether made the same legislation regarding working hours etc or possibly even better ones.... but there would have been no excuse to revoke them if we had not got mudled in other countries affairs as well.


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    Last edited by DLowe; 28-09-2022 at 21:03.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe
    one does have to question how far we could have gone on our own without getting involved with them, we were on the right path and we would have iether made the same legislation regarding working hours etc or possibly even better ones....
    There are a few aspects of employment law that we actually outperform the EU on, including holiday pay (which JRM wants to now attack). Being in the EU would have kept a ground floor on that at 4 weeks, so we have to keep our fingers crossed that it doesn't get anywhere.

    But we flagged behind on hours, hence we use the EU Working Time directive. That's also a concern that JRM has his eyes on that at all.

    Have a read of the chapter titles in this white paper, it shows the comparisons

    https://www.tuc.org.uk/sites/default...20the%20EU.pdf

  16. #396
    Self confessed player of the pink oboe docwra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe View Post
    TAnd it's not to be mistaken for an anti-EU statement, but one does have to question how far we could have gone on our own without getting involved with them, we were on the right path and we would have iether made the same legislation regarding working hours etc or possibly even better ones....
    If we had a decent government that actually did what was right for the people then who knows?
    Unfortunately when the incumbents are trying to tear up the ECHR, revoke workers rights and reduce environmental legislation the reality is that being in the EU was the only thing preventing it.
    Quote Originally Posted by scimmy ben
    I get the feeling that this would only work if we could pursuade Ernest Borgnine to drive the Isle of Wight to Portsmouth hovercraft.
    Quote Originally Posted by sprout
    After I shave my balls swarfega helps soothe, but means the hair grows back quite quickly, so give it a go

  17. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by DLowe View Post
    The sad part of the employment law changes after leaving the EU is that we were world leaders in employee rights before joining, such as the factories act, health and safety at work act and electricity at work act were all put in motion before we had any EU influence.

    Granted the HS and EAW didn't come into law until the year after we joined, but were drafted and put in motion a number of years before.

    The same for the bitish standard being a world recognised symbol of quality, now gone

    And it's not to be mistaken for an anti-EU statement, but one does have to question how far we could have gone on our own without getting involved with them, we were on the right path and we would have iether made the same legislation regarding working hours etc or possibly even better ones.... but there would have been no excuse to revoke them if we had not got mudled in other countries affairs as well.


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    So why did we have an opt out of the EU working time directive?

  18. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by docwra View Post
    If we had a decent government that actually did what was right for the people then who knows?
    Unfortunately when the incumbents are trying to tear up the ECHR, revoke workers rights and reduce environmental legislation the reality is that being in the EU was the only thing preventing it.
    Sorry I bitched at you. You're spot on fella.

    Best government we had recently was the Coalition. At least the Lib Dems reigned in the idiot Tories

    Now we have Truss who you cannot Trust
    Kwarteng who - god knows what his qualifications are for running a G7 economy

    And my favourite - Mogg - Business / Energy secretary who is a climate change denier as well as Business secretary. The 3 most dangerous people in power for us Brits

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    Truss has promoted only people who were either loyal to her all along or a threat at the beginning to quash them. She hasn't picked a cabinet based on merit or talent. Remember, she has fewer than 50mps direct support and although she got more of the vote from the party, less than half of the MP's cast a vote for her.

    I should imagine it's mostly linked to ERG membership, of which I think everyone in the cabinet is a part of except Alok Sharma.

    Kwasi Kwarteng is a stunning choice of chancellor. He was completely inept at even basic interviews in the past and, from Wiki, has no financial expertise beyond some time as an analyst. So to see him plough ahead with this mini-budget, with-hold the OBR forecast, sack the most senior treasury civil servant and (allegedly) ignore the advice of the civil service itself, well, it just shows how stunningly detached from reality he is.

    The Tory Conference will be interesting.

  20. #400
    Guest DLowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asht_200 View Post
    So why did we have an opt out of the EU working time directive?
    We were forced (if we wanted to stay employed) at the same time we got American owners.....



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