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Thread: Because Fishing and Sovreignty

  1. #81
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    I saw some of the haulage industry arguing it's a tick box exercise and a waste of time, which my limited experience would tend to agree with. Seems like nothing more than a document that says "I promise I'm ready for the check and I have all my paperwork ready".

    But it's going to be ANPR enforced so if you don't have it and you go in, you could in theory be escorted out.

    I don't really care about the fishing. All industry is important but everything has a context, and fishing has been blown massively out of proportion.

    I would imagine the EU use the EEZ via the CFP to sustain parts of their fleets and they want access to it because it'll serverly damage their industry. Which does suck, and they'll counter any ability of Britain to make use of it by ensuring we're tariffed up on it knowing full well we depend on them to be our primary customers.

    Which is just another theory as to why there are no winners in Brexit.

  2. #82
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    Have a look at what youkip did


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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post
    I don't really care about the fishing. All industry is important but everything has a context, and fishing has been blown massively out of proportion.
    It's not blown out of proportion - Can you name one country that allows another to determine, and control, the use of it's territory and assests?

    It doesn't happen because it important for a contry to show its in charge of its resources. If the UK gave in on this then the UKs standing in the world gets trashed. The UK is willing to share the use (deal with Norway, deal offered to the EU) but it has to be on it's terms - not the EUs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    It's not blown out of proportion - Can you name one country that allows another to determine, and control, the use of it's territory and assests?
    No I can't. And since that's not what the EU is proposing, I'm not sure I understand your point.

    This is a trade negotiation. We've worked symbiotically with the EU for 40 years and allowed them to build an industry sector off the back of our mutual agreement. They are now seeking to maintain that arrangement because it'll be another whack on their economy. The deal is supposed to be about compromise. It's worth more to the EU than it is to us so to allow this point would make perfect sense, and give us footing on the sectors that matter.

    It is entirely a political stunt for the benefit of the Brexit voters that this is such a big deal. The industry has only 24,000 workers, across a fleet that already doesn't catch everything it is entitled to. To make out the British fishing fleet is somehow continuously depressed by the EU is disingenuous, but that's our Government and the Leave campaign all over.

    If the UK gave in on this then the UKs standing in the world gets trashed.
    Erm, I'm not sure if you're following the news but even trying to pass the IMB has done that for us.
    Last edited by piman2k; 01-10-2020 at 08:49.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    It's not blown out of proportion - Can you name one country that allows another to determine, and control, the use of it's territory and assests?

    It doesn't happen because it important for a contry to show its in charge of its resources. If the UK gave in on this then the UKs standing in the world gets trashed. The UK is willing to share the use (deal with Norway, deal offered to the EU) but it has to be on it's terms - not the EUs.
    Yes I can name one country and we know how that turned out.

    Iraq.


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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post
    No I can't. And since that's not what the EU is proposing, I'm not sure I understand your point. This is a trade negotiation. We've worked symbiotically with the EU for 40 years and allowed them to build an industry sector off the back of our mutual agreement. They are now seeking to maintain that arrangement because it'll be another whack on their economy. The deal is supposed to be about compromise. It's worth more to the EU than it is to us so to allow this point would make perfect sense, and give us footing on the sectors that matter.
    It is, the EU want to continue the current arrangement - that's their favoured option, and their right to ask.
    The UK has said no (you can't cherry pick). We'll do it like you do with Norway.
    The EU has has refused to discuss it...

    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post
    It is entirely a political stunt for the benefit of the Brexit voters that this is such a big deal. The industry has only 24,000 workers, across a fleet that already doesn't catch everything it is entitled to. To make out the British fishing fleet is somehow continuously depressed by the EU is disingenuous, but that's our Government and the Leave campaign all over.
    I'm saying nothing about the commerical aspect of fishing because it doesn't matter. Would you let your neighbours use your garden as they liked and decide how much you go to use it?
    It's about control of UK territory and assests. That is purely political and something a goverment can't give away if it wishes to have any respest on a global level.

    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post
    Erm, I'm not sure if you're following the news but even trying to pass the IMB has done that for us.
    800 infringements against international law by the EU - https://ec.europa.eu/internal_market...s/index_en.htm
    EU reaction to Germany breaking international law - https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...rnational-law-

    The IMB only breaks the WA if certain circumstances. If there's a deal then it doesn't break the WA. IF the EU don't play silly buggers with food/animal products going to NI then it doesn't break the WA . The IMB was drawn up as a reaction to threat made - see David Frost tweets (no5): https://twitter.com/davidghfrost/sta...807211008?s=21
    Are you ok with the EU threatening to starve NI? If Frost was wrong please point out the denial, from the EU/Barnier or the clarification, as I've not seen one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    Would you let your neighbours use your garden as they liked and decide how much you go to use it?
    Again, that is not what is being done. They are asking for maintenance of the current arrangement. They're not asking for control, they're asking for maintenance of the status quo. Which hasn't been an issue for 40 years of membership because we've continued to sign up to and endorse the CFP.

    Whats more, if that neighbour was a customer of mine and bought more stuff from me than anyone else I know, the majority of what I actually sold in fact, and had been already using my garden for years without issues, I would be extra motivated to make that deal happen.

    Without worrying about what the people across the street thought of me giving up my garden, because they're very little to do with paying my bills and the truth is I don't use my garden properly anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post
    Again, that is not what is being done. They are asking for maintenance of the current arrangement. They're not asking for control, they're asking for maintenance of the status quo. Which hasn't been an issue for 40 years of membership because we've continued to sign up to and endorse the CFP.
    That's the point - we were in the club. Now we are not.
    What is wrong with the UK stance of we'll share it but it's our terms? The EU is happy enough to share with Norway on Norways terms - so what is different with the UK? We're a bigger customer to the EU than Norway so they should be motivated to do the deal. But they are refusing to discuss it, never mind compromise...


    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post
    Whats more, if that neighbour was a customer of mine and bought more stuff from me than anyone else I know, the majority of what I actually sold in fact, and had been already using my garden for years without issues, I would be extra motivated to make that deal happen.

    Without worrying about what the people across the street thought of me giving up my garden, because they're very little to do with paying my bills and the truth is I don't use my garden properly anyway.
    Ok, maybe not the best analogy.... but you're selling less and less to the garden neighbour and you want to do more with the guys up the road. They see that you let garden neighbour push you around so they'll be inclined to try and push you about as well.

  9. #89
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    Nothing is wrong with share it but share it on our terms mate, I'm not fighting you there. I'm fighting you on the fact that the terms we have are fit for purpose, they work for both economies and they allow us plenty of room to develop our own internal sector, but yet we are insisting they must change which is putting everything at risk.

    And for nothing more than a political stunt. Our government is more interested in appearances than our economic interests.

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    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post
    And for nothing more than a political stunt. Our government is more interested in appearances than our economic interests.
    The UK government has made a proposal, one the EU accepts elsewhere (Norway), but the EU is refusing to discuss it. Not sure you can blame this one on the UK being an arse...

  11. #91
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    Because Norway hasn't had a relationship like we have had with the EU for 40 years.

    Look, I understand where you're coming from. But I still don't think you're getting the point and maybe I'm not articulating it well enough.

    The agreement we have with the EU works for everyone, and works well for the UK and the EU.

    The agreement we are demanding doesn't work for the EU, doesn't make a difference to the UK, and is being leveraged so hard it risks the entire process for larger, more valuable market sectors of the UK.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post
    Because Norway hasn't had a relationship like we have had with the EU for 40 years.
    True, Norway was going to join but didn't as last minute fishing rights got added in as a cost of joining.

    Look, I understand where you're coming from. But I still don't think you're getting the point and maybe I'm not articulating it well enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post
    The agreement we have with the EU works for everyone, and works well for the UK and the EU.
    Disagree, it worked for some (mainly for the Dutch) but clearly didn't for the UK fishing industry (else why so keen to be out), it doesn't work for UK fish stocks. The fact that the super trawlers can pull out thousands of tons of fish out at a time and miracously not catch a single fish they shouldn't (don't look at the dead washed up dolphins & porpose though), the use of electropulse fishing etc.. The CFP was/is a massively flawed.

    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post
    The agreement we are demanding doesn't work for the EU, doesn't make a difference to the UK, and is being leveraged so hard it risks the entire process for larger, more valuable market sectors of the UK.
    We are demanding nothing (on fishing). In the Withdraw Agreement (WA) the EU commited to agreeing a NEW fishing deal, we have offered one, they have refused to talk. Fishing rights, in a nations territory, is something no country has given away for a FTA. The political importance of control of its own resources is more valuable than the fish.

    Think we're going nowhere tbf (like the fishing discussions)

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    The political importance of control of its own resources is more valuable than the fish.
    But that's the thing, it's not the fish that matter.

    Not reaching an agreement on this marginal sector has consequences for the entire economy! The fate of the trading relationship of the entire country rests on securing new terms for something that is 0.1% of the economy.

    And if we get no deal because of fishing, that sector is fcuked anyway since most of what it sells goes into the EU on a wafer thin margin, will ALL be subject to tarriffs and has no demonstrable way to recover that market share with the rest of the world.

    It makes no sense.

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    Now the EU are starting legal proceedings against us for the IMB, and it'll be settled through Dispute Settlement Mechanism which we signed into. Assuming we intend to honour that too.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-54370226

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    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post
    But that's the thing, it's not the fish that matter.

    Not reaching an agreement on this marginal sector has consequences for the entire economy! The fate of the trading relationship of the entire country rests on securing new terms for something that is 0.1% of the economy.

    And if we get no deal because of fishing, that sector is fcuked anyway since most of what it sells goes into the EU on a wafer thin margin, will ALL be subject to tarriffs and has no demonstrable way to recover that market share with the rest of the world.

    It makes no sense.
    The EU wont discuss it unless we give them want they want - we've made a reasonable offer. It's the EU blocking this.....

    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post
    Now the EU are starting legal proceedings against us for the IMB, and it'll be settled through Dispute Settlement Mechanism which we signed into. Assuming we intend to honour that too.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-54370226
    They've got over 700 cases against them to get thorugh first (see previous link for details). Did you find the denial of the threat published by Frost?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Frost View Post
    Yet it has been made clear to us in the current talks that there is no guarantee of listing us. I am afraid it has also been said to us explicitly in these talks that if we are not listed we will not be able to move food to Northern Ireland.
    https://twitter.com/davidghfrost/sta...807211008?s=21

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    You're quoting the same man that promised the easiest trade deal in history, now rebuking the EU's constant position since 2016.

    This protocol question is entirely the fault of the UK government. It has been said a million times, Brexit is incompatible with TGFA, yet it has been promised to be delivered.

    Technological solution was the favourite buzz phrase from Boris' mouth for months, without any substantiation of what it meant.

    In January the UK will be a different market to the EU. You must have a border between markets.

    In summary, more self inflicted bullshit. And what's the solution? We've "taken back control" of our borders by literally committing to abandoning the only land border with the EU we have.

    I can't believe you think this is reasonable.

  17. #97
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    What’s strange? Pieman was a staunch anti Brexit but now seems pro Brexit


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    How on earth have you come to that conclusion?

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    Oh dear. Couldn’t have happened at a worse time

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/01/polit...rus/index.html


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    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post
    You're quoting the same man that promised the easiest trade deal in history, now rebuking the EU's constant position since 2016.
    I think you're confusing Liam Fox & David Frost. However the full quote was:

    Quote Originally Posted by Liam Fox View Post
    “The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history. We are already beginning with zero tariffs, and we are already beginning at the point of maximal regulatory equivalence, as it is called. In other words, our rules and our laws are exactly the same.”

    “The only reason that we wouldn’t come to a free and open agreement is because politics gets in the way of economics,”
    Think he's been proven right on that final point...


    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post
    This protocol question is entirely the fault of the UK government. It has been said a million times, Brexit is incompatible with TGFA, yet it has been promised to be delivered.

    Technological solution was the favourite buzz phrase from Boris' mouth for months, without any substantiation of what it meant.

    In January the UK will be a different market to the EU. You must have a border between markets.

    In summary, more self inflicted bullshit. And what's the solution? We've "taken back control" of our borders by literally committing to abandoning the only land border with the EU we have.

    I can't believe you think this is reasonable.
    The Good Friday agreement has nothing to do with the movement of goods across the NI/Eire border. There are already customs checks, there are checks on livestock, so dragging the TGFA into things is an attempt to weaponise the situation there. You are right you must have a border, but how you police that border is entirely upto you. As long as all countries are treated equally (depending on FTAs and Most favoured status) then the UK gov can do what the hell it likes and check goods/animals where ever it wants. There is no need for a "hard" border with check points unless Eire/EU stick one on their side.

    IMHO Eire should have thinking that they could use this as a way to strengthen a united Ireland. Bringing an agreement about that offered the RoI & NI the best of being both in the EU and part of the UK. Instead Varadkar, and the EU, drove as hard a deal as possible making no deal (the worst outcome) more likely, the principle of Max Fac would have been fairlly simple to put in place and given the best chance of uniting RoI/NI further down the line.

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