WOT No EU Referendum Thread?

[jimbo]

LOL at the Daily Mail being the factual voice of England... Their UK born/educated owner is registered as a Frenchman to avoid tax, not to mention all the company tax is done through Bermuda/Jersey. True patriots!

When the top rate of tax in France 70% odd and i think they have an asset tax as well, I can't see how being French registered would help avoid tax. It's why Gerard Depardue is now Russian

Immigration - We already have a "Australia style points system" for non-EU migration and the people coming in under those rules has been far higher than from the EU. Relative to its size Australia has double the immigration we do. The only Polish people in your local doctors surgery work there rather than clog up the waiting room. Only legitimate complaint is we don't have enough housing to cope, especially in the South East.

Australia has double the rate of immigration because it chooses to. The Oz governmant, as elected by the people of Oz, has decided it needs more workers. It has then assessed and decided that each of them should be allowed in. The same an Non-EU immigration to the UK.
EU immigration is uncontrolled and we have been told we must accept anyone that wants to come. It is a somewhat different situation.

Also, if you wish to go and live in Norway or Switzerland then you do need a visa (Switzerland) to stay past 3 months or show you are able to support yourself (if not in work) after 6 months (Norway). If you don't have a job, or are unable to support yourself financially, then they can remove you. Remain seem to gloss over this in their "they have to accept free movement of labour" spiel.

Housing - would there be a shortage if we didn't have 300K-500K (depending who's figures you believe) extra people coming each year? Shelter reckon on 250K homes needed each year - net migration is 250K (migration watch 2010 - 2015, not sure if this accurate as the NI numbers show a lot more).

Single Market - This is just a set of common rules that let us freely trade with others, no different to the rules of football meaning we can freely play any other team worldwide. Do people call the off-side rule "red tape" from "unelected bureaucrats"??? If we left FIFA we'd still play but have no say in the rules at all. You could leave the single market to use a smaller goal and 2 keepers at once but see how far you get with that one.

The WTO trade regulations would be more accurate for the point you're trying to make. The single market is agreement between all the signatories on how to play (so in your example all using two goalies). Why do we need a political union to have free trade? Canada has manged it with EU, Switzerland has and so have many others. We have little say in the "rules" now - let me know how the CAP reform or the moving the thing Strasbourg for two weeks has gone.

(Awaits "but FIFA is corrupt...")

So's the EU - that's why the accounts haven't been signed off, with out qualifications (4.8% of it's budget "lost" in 2012 for example), for a long time...

Once you accept the main points above then the case presented to us for Brexit is not proven, it falls apart.

You'll be claiming the EU give us cheap roaming costs (it didn't - it was a result of pressure from the ITUG, OECD, ITU, and WTO since 1999. In fact the EU was one of the last places to do it) and protects workers rights next....

[docwra]

I think it varies, when me and the Mrs went lanzarote it was something silly like 25 euros for a box of 200 fags, 20 fags are nearly a tenner here now. brought back like 3000 in the end

Lanzarote is "north Africa" for Duty Free purposes so not EU. I never buy anything in EU duty free these days as while you save the 20% VAT, the markup more than makes up for it.

[Clint]

Lanzarote is "north Africa" for Duty Free purposes so not EU. I never buy anything in EU duty free these days as while you save the 20% VAT, the markup more than makes up for it.

Airport shopping while travelling within the EU isn't "duty free" and hasn't been for years. Makes fook all difference though when you can buy tobacco/booze at your destination as it's a lot cheaper the Ireland/UK.

[Asht_200]

Lanzarote is "north Africa" for Duty Free purposes so not EU. I never buy anything in EU duty free these days as while you save the 20% VAT, the markup more than makes up for it.

You sure? Gran Canaria comes under Spain now


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[docwra]

First up - jimbo is literally the first person Ive seen with any reasonable argument for Brexit, this might be as he appears to be the onyl one backing it up with fact too. Good on yer mate

But ..........

When the top rate of tax in France 70% odd and i think they have an asset tax as well, I can't see how being French registered would help avoid tax

Hes probably non dom or registered as working in Martinique or soemthing. If hes living in the UK and working at the DM there aint no room for tax dodging .

Australia has double the rate of immigration because it chooses to. It is a somewhat different situation.

Except for Kiwis, which is pretty much exactly the same as EU into UK. Dont forget that UK into EU is also pretty attractive and not entirely uncommon.

Also, if you wish to go and live in Norway or Switzerland then you do need a visa (Switzerland) to stay past 3 months or show you are able to support yourself (if not in work) after 6 months (Norway). If you don't have a job, or are unable to support yourself financially, then they can remove you. Remain seem to gloss over this in their "they have to accept free movement of labour" spiel.

This isnt much different from the benefits brake we are about to put in where you dont get benefits within 4 years of arrival - Germany, France and Denmark also have similar schemes and are in the EU. You cant be removed but you are unlikely to last long in Copenhagen without two Kroner to rub together.

Housing - would there be a shortage if we didn't have 300K-500K (depending who's figures you believe) extra people coming each year? Shelter reckon on 250K homes needed each year - net migration is 250K (migration watch 2010 - 2015, not sure if this accurate as the NI numbers show a lot more)

Would there be such a shortage and artificially high property prices if HM Gov hadnt encouraged BTL so much? Regardless, with the benefit brake it will onyl be working people who would get government housing anyway.

The WTO trade regulations would be more accurate for the point you're trying to make. The single market is agreement between all the signatories on how to play (so in your example all using two goalies). Why do we need a political union to have free trade? Canada has manged it with EU, Switzerland has and so have many others. We have little say in the "rules" now - let me know how the CAP reform or the moving the thing Strasbourg for two weeks has gone.

The Canadian agreement isnt actually active at the moment and took a little while to implement, we would also be throwing away existing agreements with every member state and any others they have negotiated. A nice example Ive given recently is on VAT - it costs me nothing to reclaim EU VAT, I dont bother with anything less than a grand elsewhere because of the cost and ballache involved.

Id be the first to admit there may well be benefits from leaving but the advantages of staying outweigh them like the Deathstar and a Tennis ball.

[docwra]

Airport shopping while travelling within the EU isn't "duty free" and hasn't been for years. Makes fook all difference though when you can buy tobacco/booze at your destination as it's a lot cheaper the Ireland/UK.

Its VAT free at the end of the day, and Lanzarote is definitely outside of the EU for DF purposes: http://www.worlddutyfreegroup.com/travelling/

Gran Canaria still is AFAIK too?

[Zornyan]

Its VAT free at the end of the day, and Lanzarote is definitely outside of the EU for DF purposes: http://www.worlddutyfreegroup.com/travelling/

Gran Canaria still is AFAIK too?

counted as part of Spain AFAIK when I went there, I know it's in close proximity to Africa as some woman on a tour was going on about the storms coming from there or something.

regardless. it was cheap as hell for fags, and didn't matter me bringing a few thousand back.

[docwra]

OK, lets get this straight - Lanzarote is a Canary Island under Spanish rule but not governance, like the Isle or Man is here. Hence it can be part of the EU for most things (Schengen travel for instance) but outside of the EU for Duty Free. See also Andorra, Liechtenstein and Mote Carlo.

[Asht_200]

OK, lets get this straight - Lanzarote is a Canary Island under Spanish rule but not governance, like the Isle or Man is here. Hence it can be part of the EU for most things (Schengen travel for instance) but outside of the EU for Duty Free. See also Andorra, Liechtenstein and Mote Carlo.

I stand corrected. Canary Islands are not considered part of EU when it comes to Duty Free...

booze and fags are still cheaper in the resorts than the airports though

Andorra, Liechtenstein, Monaco, and San Marino are part of the customs union though, so shouldn't they be treated like EU countries when it comes to Duty free allowances?

[Asht_200]

Oh and..

[Zornyan]

OK, lets get this straight - Lanzarote is a Canary Island under Spanish rule but not governance, like the Isle or Man is here. Hence it can be part of the EU for most things (Schengen travel for instance) but outside of the EU for Duty Free. See also Andorra, Liechtenstein and Mote Carlo.

bit off topic but...

always been confuses by this, surely if it's under Spanish rule, with Spanish people/language, and the EU currency then how comes it isn't an EU country as such.

[arry]

Oh jeez some of the shit that's gone into FB today is just depressing.

12m Turkish want to move to Britain - and most of them are students or unemployed! Shock new poll! Don't say you haven't been warned!

If you vote to stay you give up FOR LIFE the right to govern ourselves. FACT!

Oh **** off you spastics

[arry]

Oh this one's a beauty - what an absolute ****ing mongspaz

With all the other facts why people should vote to leave, how about this:
To those that fought WW1 and WW2......with what's going on now and the other schemes up EU'S sleeve, why did they fight for AND lost their lives for? To be a free country! If people vote to remain then sorry, they have no respect for our war dead and the survivors who carried physical and mental scars for us all.

[Asht_200]

Oh this one's a beauty - what an absolute ****ing mongspaz

With all the other facts why people should vote to leave, how about this:
To those that fought WW1 and WW2......with what's going on now and the other schemes up EU'S sleeve, why did they fight for AND lost their lives for? To be a free country! If people vote to remain then sorry, they have no respect for our war dead and the survivors who carried physical and mental scars for us all.

There is actually a very reasonable counter-argument to this. In World War 2, we were fighting a Xenophobic movement, intent on persecuting more than 1 demographic.... much like those who support the Brexit campaign.

[def]

£350mil for a ripped rectum!? Sounds fair.

Lol

[jimbo]

First up - jimbo is literally the first person Ive seen with any reasonable argument for Brexit, this might be as he appears to be the onyl one backing it up with fact too. Good on yer mate

Cheers- my first visit to the site in years as well! hasn't changed much to be honest.....

Except for Kiwis, which is pretty much exactly the same as EU into UK. Dont forget that UK into EU is also pretty attractive and not entirely uncommon.

Actually, they do - the "special catagory visa". This is applied for, and granted, and presenting a passport to the boarder agencies. As of 2013 (latest figures I can find) there were 640770 SCVs granted. So about 20% of the EU migration we've seen here. https://www.border.gov.au/about/corp...ct-sheets/17nz

This isnt much different from the benefits brake we are about to put in where you dont get benefits within 4 years of arrival - Germany, France and Denmark also have similar schemes and are in the EU. You cant be removed but you are unlikely to last long in Copenhagen without two Kroner to rub together.

The benefits brake, offered by Tusk, hasn't been approved by the EU commission though. So although they say we'll get it we may not. A bit like the protection British fishing was supposed to get but we're now in a place where one Dutch vessel gets 23% of all British fishing allocation (and lands it Holland). http://britishseafishing.co.uk/cornelis-vrolijk/

Would there be such a shortage and artificially high property prices if HM Gov hadnt encouraged BTL so much? Regardless, with the benefit brake it will onyl be working people who would get government housing anyway.

If we could remove the extra "EU migrant" demand than supply would be more equal to demand and prices should (in theory) drop. We would certainly need fewer new houses (school places, surgery places etc.. as well) as we'd have fewer people. I don't know the impact on the market of BTL on it's own though. But reduced demands should mean lower prices.

The Canadian agreement isnt actually active at the moment and took a little while to implement, we would also be throwing away existing agreements with every member state and any others they have negotiated.

But it was done, which was my point. With regards to trade deals the EU has to negioatate for 28 different countries, each with very different needs, so it takes ages. The EU - China deal has not been done, they started talking prior to 2004. The Swiss - China deal was done in 4 years. By being out we will be allowed to negotiate deals that suit us, not one that suits everyone, and even then may not be best for us. We'd also regain our voice on the WTO so have a bigger global voice than as part of the EU.

As for the deals we have being junked, we have two years (after notifying them we're off) to replace them. We are already in trade deals with these countries (under an umbrella group). How hard would it be to simply do a deal copying the EU one with these countries? Open in word, find EU & replace with UK (over simplifying things a little there..).

A nice example Ive given recently is on VAT - it costs me nothing to reclaim EU VAT, I dont bother with anything less than a grand elsewhere because of the cost and ballache involved.

I know nothing about reclaiming VAT......

Id be the first to admit there may well be benefits from leaving but the advantages of staying outweigh them like the Deathstar and a Tennis ball.

I see it as the other way round myself.

[jimbo]

Oh jeez some of the shit that's gone into FB today is just depressing.

12m Turkish want to move to Britain - and most of them are students or unemployed! Shock new poll! Don't say you haven't been warned!

If you vote to stay you give up FOR LIFE the right to govern ourselves. FACT!

Oh **** off you spastics

To be fair a lot of Turks would move here, the living wage is much higher than that in Turkey so would be a big draw (as it was for others). The average wage in Turkey is £360/mth - in the UK its about £2000 mth, why wouldn't they come?

Cameron and Merkel are both on record as wishing to accelerate Turkeys entry to the EU, so saying (now at least) it won't happen is an out right lie. He has expressly stated he wants them in.

By remaining part of the EU we do give up the right to govern ourselves in certain areas - Immigration being the most obvious. If we, or rather our directly elected representatives, are barred from making our own choices then we are not free are we.

With all the other facts why people should vote to leave, how about this:
To those that fought WW1 and WW2......with what's going on now and the other schemes up EU'S sleeve, why did they fight for AND lost their lives for? To be a free country! If people vote to remain then sorry, they have no respect for our war dead and the survivors who carried physical and mental scars for us all.

Almost as ridiculous as implying without us in the club they'll all go to war, or workers rights will be decimated by leaving, or we won't be able to buy BMWs etc...

There are daft claims on both sides, the most even handed appraisal I have seen is Martin Lewis'. Although I balance the risk somewhat differently to him.

[docwra]

The benefits brake, offered by Tusk, hasn't been approved by the EU commission though. So although they say we'll get it we may not.

I cant see it not being approved though when Denmark, Germany, France etc. all have very similar arrangements in place. It will also lead to less immigration which should reduce the housing needed.

On the trade deals ......... I think youre oversimplifying it a lot - if its taken 12 years for the EU and China deal how long might it take the UK? You also use the word "negotiate" a few times, we dont have very much to negotiate with at the end of the day, certainly a lot less than the EU as whole does.
In the meantime we are going to be at a disadvantage to our neighbours whether importing or exporting, even a 1% additional cost of business is enough to cause major problems.

[sideways14a]

Thats it folk, Brexit has won...

TB has got involved now for staying put... games fecked folks.

[Zornyan]

so much crap being spouted on the news today, 350 million mentioned a few times, apparently if we do leave taxes will go up, vat will go up, wages will go down and we're going to enter the stone age.

apparently if we stay the same things going to happen, and since we're a super power that ruled the world "it'll be fine"

either way regardless of who votes what, we're ****ed if most people are as dumb as they come across.