WOT No EU Referendum Thread?

[Asht_200]

The growing interference into aspects of lives, the growing surveillance, the large interest in censorship of "wrongthink", the shady deals being made and the signs of enforced redistribution of wealth seem to be setting it up on a foundation that very quickly starts to resemble the old Soviet bloc.

That doesn't sound like the EU, that sounds like the UK Government. Most of the EU nations are against wholesale surveillance. Remember Angel Merkel' phone being monitored by the five signatory nations to the UKUSA Security Agreement. Britain is the most surveyed country on the planet. That is down to the UK, not the EU

The UK Government are now looking at "Hard Brexit" because they don't have an answer. They don't want to lose face. Still want to punch above their weight, but reality will kick in. Enforced redistribution of wealth is one of Jeremy Corbyn's policies. When people get pissed off with the current lot, and they will. What do you think will happen next.

I don't much want to continue posting on this thread, I think I've made too much noise already and I'm sure everyone is getting irritated with me being stubborn but I do like a debate and it's nice to have people around who are happy to coherently voice their opinions whether they agree or disagree so thanks everyone

Keep voicing them. Everyone on here loves a good debate. We all think we are right, even when we are wrong. It's called freedom of speech. About the only freedom we have left so don't waste it

[docwra]

I don't much want to continue posting on this thread, I think I've made too much noise already and I'm sure everyone is getting irritated with me being stubborn but I do like a debate and it's nice to have people around who are happy to coherently voice their opinions whether they agree or disagree so thanks everyone

No way man, you keep going. My only frustration is that you tend to slide off into the theory or your belief (quite a lot of which I agree with) rather than the reality (which I deal with most days at work).

Not disagreeing with your comments on the issues within the EU, particualrly the EC gravy train but the Lords "just a voice"? I am just a voice but Im pretty sure I cant veto parliamentary legislation ......

[logik]

That doesn't sound like the EU, that sounds like the UK Government. Most of the EU nations are against wholesale surveillance. Remember Angel Merkel' phone being monitored by the five signatory nations to the UKUSA Security Agreement. Britain is the most surveyed country on the planet. That is down to the UK, not the EU

hahaha maybe they figured Merkel might be assisting terrorists. But anyway more to the point, lets not ignore the data retention directive that was the EU directly establishing online surveillance in a form (though I'll expand on surveillance in a little). I'm more worried about the EU having major companies sign up to the "hate speech" code since that stinks of censorship. Surveillance within pretty much any western nation has existed since the cold war, GCHQ funnelled loads of money into monitoring equipment even back in the 80s. The EU doesn't have to interfere particularly because they're well aware every nation has the framework already there. Instead the focus seems to be on suppressing "wrongthink". The whole "fake news" stuff appeared and quickly gained support by EU leaders and that was after the hate speech code. Any kind of systematic censorship for whatever reason comes down to it being at someones discretion and that is what the EU is pushing towards. "Silence the dissidents, we can call anti-eu rhetoric fake news and ban it!"

The UK Government are now looking at "Hard Brexit" because they don't have an answer. They don't want to lose face. Still want to punch above their weight, but reality will kick in. Enforced redistribution of wealth is one of Jeremy Corbyn's policies. When people get pissed off with the current lot, and they will. What do you think will happen next.

In terms of redistribution of wealth, the EU has been actively supporting the transfer of businesses across the EU to the less developed parts and dumping money onto the poorer parts. Admittedly, much of it is a drop in an ocean but in effect they're supporting taking jobs out of the wealthy parts to put them in the less wealthy parts to create a flatter continent in terms of earnings. Businesses of course are only too happy to accept money in order to transfer their operations to reduce staffing costs, it's win-win for them.

You're right about Comrade Corbyn loving redistribution, I'm sure he wants the UK to look like Venezuela. I don't think the public would ever actually elect him though and if they did I don't think he'd be in power long enough to do ~real~ damage. My genuine suspicion is the next labour leader will be Sadiq Khan - he's an opportunist and if Labour continues to be so weak after his term as London Mayor he'll be in a prime position to try to get the leadership. I think he's a pile of shit though, then again so was Zac Goldsmith.

As for hard Brexit, initially this disturbed even me slightly but the simple fact is there are more countries outside the EU than inside the EU and the EU is showing serious signs of stagnation and economic contraction. I think our net import from the EU is somewhat irrelevant, consider it a 50/50. Neither us nor them want to actually lose that trade, but the EU is looking at taking an ideological stance against our exit and consequently they want to punish us, plus the EU is terrified of Le Pen and Wilders doing the same for more countries.

What they're not realising is the best thing for the EU is to come to friendly, economy boosting mutually beneficial exit terms. If the EU does decide to take a heavy handed position and we end up leaving with no deals, jobs are going to be lost on both sides, economies are likely to shrink. We however have the benefit of then being a sovereign nation who can make trade deals with replacement countries with ease, they have bureaucracy and red tape which could stall any deals for years. We are in a position of negotiating power and we should absolutely make use of it. Ultimately, all the trade we may lose from the EU could be replaced by deals with other nations across the world relatively quickly. There are a lot of countries who see the UK as an opportunity for trade and also a way of increasing their own standards. Theresa May's threat of becoming a tax haven was amazing though - the EU shat themselves on that one.

Keep voicing them. Everyone on here loves a good debate. We all think we are right, even when we are wrong. It's called freedom of speech. About the only freedom we have left so don't waste it

I don't think anywhere within the EU has actual "freedom of speech" - only "freedom to speak your mind unless someone is offended" but that is a completely separate discussion lol.

No way man, you keep going. My only frustration is that you tend to slide off into the theory or your belief (quite a lot of which I agree with) rather than the reality (which I deal with most days at work).

Not disagreeing with your comments on the issues within the EU, particualrly the EC gravy train but the Lords "just a voice"? I am just a voice but Im pretty sure I cant veto parliamentary legislation ......

Well, the Lords can veto a bill 3 times, after which they can be bypassed completely. It doesn't happen very often though - I suspect this is usually because the Lords simply avoid standing in the way of democracy too much.

I would say that I think the Queen should have the power to call a referendum on any controversial bill that does not serve the citizens. I'm not sure what requirements would need to be met for this but I don't like the idea of the Monarchy being little more than a (profitable!) tourist attraction and political pawns. I think if parliament pass a controversial bill that is perhaps harmful to the population, she should be able to direct the voice of the people to that directly because democracy clearly can and does occasionally fail and the Lords seem to be sucking at being a coherent balance against the overreaching of parliamentary powers.

[sideways14a]

BBC crowing about a report breaking down the voting pattern for brexit.
Que lots of remainers ranting about how it was all stupid people that voted to leave.

Cheeky little feckers, some of the most stupid forms of life i have encountered have been through uni or work for universities - i have seen loads... education is no great indication of sensibility.

[logik]

Cheeky little feckers, some of the most stupid forms of life i have encountered have been through uni or work for universities - i have seen loads... education is no great indication of sensibility.

As a graduate, I completely endorse this

[Jonny Wilkinson]

Education is no substitute for intellect.

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[Jonny Wilkinson]

... But better an educated idiot than an uneducated one.

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[sideways14a]

As a graduate, I completely endorse this

Working in higher education for 18 years now, everyday i am surprised at how stupid some of the folk are i come across.
And how arrogant.

[auz200sx]

My dad was the same when he worked in higher education he could not get over how dumb some people have become. No ability to think outside the box. A class full of sixteen year olds in a grammer school couldn't name any re newable energy sources nor could they work out that a library was an alternative place to research a subject and actually look it up in a book. But sir if I can't use the internet.............

[logik]

University Education is turning into an echo chamber. It's sad really but there is a distinct trend on the political views that are subtly filtering into those in education.

[zeppelin101]

No idea what degree you did but it would be pretty bloody hard to taint an engineering degree with politics.

Too much time worrying about Laplace transforms and fluid dynamics.

No, not everyone who gets a degree is intelligent but then it rather depends on what degree they are studying for in the first place.

Availability of stupid degree courses and funding where it doesn't really matter if you pay it back or not will see to that. I remember when I finished my Bachelors in 2011 the number of people on the course who were saying "**** it, I'll stay on and do a Masters because there are no jobs" kind of highlights that there are a people who do it to avoid the "real world". I walked straight into a well paying engineering job 2 months after graduating and it was the first one I applied for. Lack of jobs my arse.

[logik]

Admittedly, it's mostly the soft sciences that are hit. That said, when university campuses are developing "safe spaces" it eventually means everyone voices the same views. I think America is getting hit by this worse than the UK, at least so far. Probably won't be long though.

[sideways14a]

University Education is turning into an echo chamber. It's sad really but there is a distinct trend on the political views that are subtly filtering into those in education.

This is very true, while some degree courses are still producing good grads an awful lot are producing muppets.

Lost count of the number of conversations i have had over the years with lectures and other staff about the quality of 1year students arriving at the door...

[Mark]

We have plenty of engineering grads here who i wouldnt trust to tie their shoe laces

My 2 favs are a 'Dr' looking at an engine all laid out then turns to me and asks 'So what is the big end' and a more recent one a guy totally confused as to why he couldnt have a clutch fitted to his test engine that had a flexplate

All Grads should spend 6 months minimum on the shop floor having their toolbox wrapped in cling film and going to the stores for 3m of fallopian tubing before becoming 'engineers' IMO. Its good grounding

[sideways14a]

I have seen nursing students, not just in year 1..., who have difficulties with locating a decimal point properly.

think about it.....

[Asht_200]

I have seen nursing students, not just in year 1..., who have difficulties with locating a decimal point properly.

think about it.....

It's worrying! 50 mg of morphing instead 5mg

Saying that, i dont agree with the policy that all nurses had to have a degree.

Michelle had to do one after years being a nurse. She only had to do the degree to tick a box


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[sideways14a]

Worse ways to go than 50mg of morphene i suppose.
That said many student are a bit fik, this isnt restricted to the ones i see from the unis i work for... its an epidemic across the sector (bar the really massive uni's that have swots)

[cleanhands]

Not going to criticise people who have something I haven't, but there are a couple of things that have really bugged me since the referendum.
1) Just because University education was free in the eighties it does not mean that it didn't cost anything to get a degree. A mate's parents spent a third of the value of my first house (bought in 1991) on his Chemistry degree

2) Just because more people have degrees does not mean people are more intelligent now. Confirmation bias. Some are, some aren't.

3) Degrees have been totally devalued, In our office 6 people (out of 13) have them, the 3 with Forensic science are the lowest paid (£17k), the engineers are the highest. That's the sad thing, we can demand qualifications for jobs that a diligent monkey could do.

[logik]

Not going to criticise people who have something I haven't, but there are a couple of things that have really bugged me since the referendum.

Criticise away, free speech ftw!

1) Just because University education was free in the eighties it does not mean that it didn't cost anything to get a degree. A mate's parents spent a third of the value of my first house (bought in 1991) on his Chemistry degree

No, but it was a lot cheaper than now where we're starting to look like the US system of higher education

2) Just because more people have degrees does not mean people are more intelligent now. Confirmation bias. Some are, some aren't.

This comes down to something a little more scary. A degree is not an assertion of intelligence, it's a vague implication. The reality is that there are some people born thick as Nicki Minajs fake butt and some people born with minds like Einstein. All the education in the world will never turn someone stupid into someone smart, it will only allow them to be a lot less stupid, providing that education is delivered to them in a suitable way. The way school is teaching kids now that basically they can't fail and even dogshit work is acceptable is making them think they're geniuses when they can't even achieve mediocrity. Don't get me wrong, I think school doesn't work for everyone, but it sure as hell ****s people over by giving them the idea they wont have to try hard. The other problem of this is for actually intelligent people, when they're lumped in with others who are comparatively intellectual insects, they stop trying to succeed because they don't need to put in effort. This is instilling a generation with laziness

3) Degrees have been totally devalued, In our office 6 people (out of 13) have them, the 3 with Forensic science are the lowest paid (£17k), the engineers are the highest. That's the sad thing, we can demand qualifications for jobs that a diligent monkey could do.

I ended up doing a masters because I was passed up for a series of opportunities with my old company for people who were equally or less qualified than me while simultaneously having my requests for personal development rejected and getting little managerial support as to alternatives (I got specifically told PRINCE2 was too expensive and I should find a cheaper alternative myself despite knowing they'd funded a temporary staff member for PRINCE2). Basically I got to the point where I realised having an undergraduate degree was useless as it seemed like anyone can get one and that was the baseline requirement, where as a lot less people have done masters. Being honest, I did not deserve the distinction on my masters degree and I didn't put in the same kind of effort as I saw others put in which goes back to me considering higher education to be near pointless as a reflection of a persons capacity and I'm relatively confident that if even a less capable person simply invested all their time and effort in achieving what some consider a great achievement, they'll get there.

As a sidenote to this, I'm pretty sure at least two people on my course "bought" their grades by paying people to do all their essays and dissertation for them. Scary that its possible to do that too.

[Asht_200]

A degree demonstrates you have a modicum of a capacity to learn


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