WOT No EU Referendum Thread?

[jimbo]

So why can't we remain in the EU and lead from the front rather than being "run by it". Which I would disagree is the case but anyway...

Oh yes, because like a bunch of idiots, the majority voted in a load of people to European Parliament from a party that doesn't even want to be there. We deserve everything we get from the EU while that is the case.

Part of the issue with "leading" the EU is that the UK gets an ever decreasing number of commissioners & MEPs. The commissioners are the (unelected - Madelson & Kinnock ffs..) appointees that create the laws (the MEPs function as our Lords do, they approve or refer back laws. They do not create laws, can't repeal laws, or amend laws themselves). The newer joinees of the EU are also net gainers from the EU - they get more than they pay in. So why would they want to change things?? It's also worth remembering that Britain has never received a penny from the EU - everything that is "funded by the EU" comes from the British tax payer as is just spent at the EU direction.

The EU also doesn't want to change - there was a review of its structures a while back and they decided there was no need for change; the whole lot moves from Brussels to Strasbourg for 4 days each month. If it really wanted to change (or was capable) then this would have been axed years ago....

As for Farage not attending the fisheries meetings, can you provide any evidence that:
1) he missed any votes
2) his presence (vote) would have changed any decisions
3) there were any blocks he could join that could make a difference?

As far as I know there isn't - but if you can find it then I'll be glad to read it. If not then his attendance would have been pointless anyway.

[Asht_200]

Farage voting record http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/media/p...oster-20150408


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[jimbo]

Farage voting record http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/media/p...oster-20150408

Thanks, that does show that his vote was pointless tho given the majority the acts got.....

[Asht_200]

Thanks, that does show that his vote was pointless tho given the majority the acts got.....

But to not even bother turning up to the meetings. He was voted in by UK tax payers to represent us and it just shows how much contempt he has for us.


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[zeppelin101]

But to not even bother turning up to the meetings. He was voted in by UK tax payers to represent us and it just shows how much contempt he has for us.


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Pretty much the point to be made. Would you care more if it was your local MP doing the same thing in UK parliament? If you are elected to represent the interests of some people and then don't do that - how is that democracy?

On top of that, there is no telling that if he had cared enough to turn up he couldn't have influenced others to vote against it. Politics is as much about speaking out as it is influencing others behind closed doors.

[def]

I'm voting out. Voting remain gives Cameron the power to privatise the NHS. The 75 plus mps on the board of private hralthcare have been waiting for this. "you voted for Europe and Europe is not compatible with the NHS"

I'm voting out because we are one of the world's largest economys and have more to offer. We have our hands tied by the European.
I'm voting out because the European supports cheap labour and funnelled the money to the top 5%.

I'm voting leave because if we were voting "do you want to join the eu?" the poll wouldn't be close.

I'm voting leave because Tom is voting remain

[def]

But to not even bother turning up to the meetings. He was voted in by UK tax payers to represent us and it just shows how much contempt he has for us.


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We're do you get this stuff from? You have made your mind up watching the telly.

I've pointed too the TV debate before.

Tory: Forage you want to legalise guns. You would have the streets of the UK turned into the wild west.

Man with facts: If I may correct you. He wanted to legalise the use of handguns for our Olympic team.

Garage does what he does for what he believes is best for Britain not the banker. And for that he has my respect.

Do I support his party or policy. Some policy's make sense but for the most part no I do not.
He missed a meeting that he would have no bearing on......sounds like a good idea if his time could be better spent.
Enemy of the people...bit harsh.

Step away from media

[def]

Pretty much the point to be made. Would you care more if it was your local MP doing the same thing in UK parliament? If you are elected to represent the interests of some people and then don't do that - how is that democracy?

On top of that, there is no telling that if he had cared enough to turn up he couldn't have influenced others to vote against it. Politics is as much about speaking out as it is influencing others behind closed doors.

And Forage doesn't turn up and speak out?

Lol

[Mark]

Apparently we have been outvoted 56 times since 1999 so that 56 things we didnt want (although how significant those 56 things are I dont know). However we have been on the winning side nearly 2500 times in the same period so even the 'EU telling us what to do' thing doesnt wash as 98% of the time we get what we want anyway

When this all started I was more than happy to vote out but i have not found anything to say its the right thing to do as the 3 big hitters, Immigration, Cost and Laws have all been blown out of the water. all we hear is 'take back control, stop migrants coming in, save the NHS but its all total made up jackonory bullshit.

Immigration - More non EU people enter the UK each year and of the EU migrants that are here they put more in overall to the economy than they take out so they are not a drain on resources.

Cost - Cost of being in the EU is less than 2% of total UK spending

Laws - see above, also the majority of EU laws are very beneficial.

End of the day ask yourself this - Is your current situation so shit and dire you are willing to risk everything you have (job, home, car, way of life) in order to possibly make it a little better?

IMO there is much more to loose than gain so its just not worth it.

[DLowe]

That is exactly how the government want you....

Just good enough life to not question or act on anything they do for the risk of loosing what little you have...

They can keep robbing from the NHS, wasting money hand over fist in public funded schemes and embezzling cash left right and centre while hiding the peados and real criminals in parliament behind their banker friends...

The eu referendum will hopefully be the start of something bigger where the public say we have had enough of the shit and career politicians who are only out for personal gain

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[zeppelin101]

And Forage doesn't turn up and speak out?

Lol

He whinges a lot about all manner of things, very little of it is logical. Turning up at parliament and telling people in the EU how terrible the EU is - does that sound productive? Whose interests does that have at heart?

It's fascinating you think that a Leave vote would save the NHS. How exactly? It is inefficient and does not have enough money to operate. The budget is operating a deficit and the paltry amount that *might* be saved by Leaving (which won't be, because the economy will contract eradicating all of that saved money we send to the EU) won't make any kind of a dent in it's hugely significant problems. Reducing immigration (not throwing people in the sea) won't change that because there are still lots of people to treat which will increase at some rate over time and it is as much a function of an ageing population as it is anything else. Also, immigration is of huge benefit to staffing the NHS since we don't train enough doctors or nurses in this country. So how do you fix any of those problems just by Leaving?

On top of that, a notable number of members of the Leave campaign have admitted that they don't particularly care for the NHS (funnily enough, the ones who probably already have private health care), not least the puppet master in the background that is Mr Murdoch. Who backs Leave because he can't control the EU but he can control the UK government, as he has also said multiple times.

[Mark]

That is exactly how the government want you....

Just good enough life to not question or act on anything they do for the risk of loosing what little you have...

Its not just 'good enough' though thanks, I have a good job, 2 brand new cars and a 2 bed semi in the South East. I have 2 hobbies I enjoy and 2 more I dont do enough due to time and we have fairly regular holidays. I cant see how leaving the EU will improve on that? My wages wont suddenly go up (in fact they probably wont go anywhere) my mortgage wont get any cheaper and i wont be able to afford to get a Lamborghini

I come from a single parent, council house background and have worked hard for what I have and I am not prepared to chuck it all away just so I can say the Germans are not stopping me from buying bent cucumbers.

[Asht_200]

Why do people still keep harping on about the shape of cucumbers? The act was repealed in 2008


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[DLowe]

In the same boat myself.... Good job, good house, multi cars etc...

But it's glaringly obvious where I am that my situation is no where near as good as those 20yrs older and the next generation coming in is in a far worse situation than me... But while we are sitting comfortable those in charge rely on us doing nothing to change things because of the risk to ourselves.



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[AP2]

So basically you are saying we are better off staying part of the union of 28 countries and letting them make trade deals with the other 168 countries on our behalf, which will be done in the interests of the majority and not the UK unless it falls into that majority.

I honestly believe that we can make better deals much faster on our own that take the needs of this country into account, the one size fits all does not work hence the reason the EU is in the state it is in. Yes there will be some pain if we leave, but I for one are willing to take that risk and that pain if it gives the possibility of my kids having a better future. Even the French and Germans are being pushed for a referendum on the EU so its not as if we are on our own in thinking it all gone pear shaped.

Immigration, I have no problem with people coming to live and work in this country it makes it an interesting place, I do however believe it should not just be a free for all. If we have the need for a particular trade then by all means let them come and work here and grow the country. The best way of achieving this I do not know something on the lines of a points system may work as it has worked for other countries.

No matter what you all say one thing is very clear, the EU's end game is to have full control over it's member countries, if we stay we will have an ever smaller voice within the union and we will get outvoted on some things like Mark pointed out we have been on the winning side for 2500 of those votes but it only takes losing the one vote that matters for something that will affect the UK and who knows what will happen. One thing that may affect us as a group, the bill they are trying to pass to stop any modifications to vehicles from standard, if that is passed it will kill a huge trade sector in this country.

I'm an OUT and i'm willing to take what ever that brings, I do not have 1000's of pounds spare in the bank so if it cost more it will hurt but so be it. Lets trade with all of the 196 countries and not just concentrate on the minority of 27 and what dodgy deals they can think up.

[DLowe]

Another thing to think of - we are the first country to vote.... What if we remain in, then all the other "big players" vote out? Then it's little old England with places like turkey, Greece, Ukraine or wherever else want in... While Germany Spain Portugal etc all go off on their own and change trade agreements anyway

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[def]

He whinges a lot about all manner of things, very little of it is logical. Turning up at parliament and telling people in the EU how terrible the EU is - does that sound productive? Whose interests does that have at heart?

It's fascinating you think that a Leave vote would save the NHS. How exactly? It is inefficient and does not have enough money to operate. The budget is operating a deficit and the paltry amount that *might* be saved by Leaving (which won't be, because the economy will contract eradicating all of that saved money we send to the EU) won't make any kind of a dent in it's hugely significant problems. Reducing immigration (not throwing people in the sea) won't change that because there are still lots of people to treat which will increase at some rate over time and it is as much a function of an ageing population as it is anything else. Also, immigration is of huge benefit to staffing the NHS since we don't train enough doctors or nurses in this country. So how do you fix any of those problems just by Leaving?

On top of that, a notable number of members of the Leave campaign have admitted that they don't particularly care for the NHS (funnily enough, the ones who probably already have private health care), not least the puppet master in the background that is Mr Murdoch. Who backs Leave because he can't control the EU but he can control the UK government, as he has also said multiple times.

Tom you type a lot but don't research enough. or research to what ever truth you want

The NHS has been made to be in inefficient. The private Health sector backed by the 75 MPs who sit on there boards have made sure of this.

The Private drugs company have also made this happen in a big way.

How about prescription charges going to the NHS? That would make it more self funded.

Has your local A & E gotten bigger? Your hospital? Your GP's? No because some people want to squeeze it until it breaks.

Most assistants in the Royal Berks seem to come from an African back ground so are not part of the EU immigration.

[zeppelin101]

You've still not said how Leaving makes any of that better though... so my question stands. You would make a good politician.

[jimbo]

Apparently we have been outvoted 56 times since 1999 so that 56 things we didnt want (although how significant those 56 things are I dont know). However we have been on the winning side nearly 2500 times in the same period so even the 'EU telling us what to do' thing doesnt wash as 98% of the time we get what we want anyway

56 doesn't sound a lot. But, part of the issue with the EU is that it's only 56 recorded occassions. The council of leaders mainly do things by concensus and most things aren't recorded. The tendency is toonly record those events that play well at home: We tried to do X but couldn't. So no-one (outside the EU) actually knows. The tendency for the UK to be out voted is also increasing. This implies a diverging "need" for the UK and the rest of the EU. This is faitly obvious as the Euro countries are (mainly) deep in the shit and getting worse as they can't compete with Germany.

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts...-uk-influence/

Immigration - More non EU people enter the UK each year and of the EU migrants that are here they put more in overall to the economy than they take out so they are not a drain on resources.

Well that's only true if you look at the number of people answering "yes" to the "are you staying more than 12 months" question on arrival (the Remain quoted number). If you look at the number of NI numbers issued then it's a lot more, for example 697000K new NI numbers were issued to new EU workers in 2015. Looking at "immigration" vs "new NI numbers" going to 2005 then the immigration number is 2 to 3 times lower every year.

Granted some might not stay, but some will. Even if only half stay then the "immigration" number is out by 50% year on year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36271390

Cost - Cost of being in the EU is less than 2% of total UK spending

The head line cost is right, don't think anyone disputes that. But you'd also need to figure past bail out costs, fines, future bail costs and the proposed bail in fund as well to get a true a idea of cost. Then you need to decide if these costs are worth it. The UK is not great at exporting to the Eu and many countries outside the EU (China for example) have no free trade but are still more successful.

Then you need to remember that we can't agree our deals with other countries for free trade (So NAFTA is out, the commonwealth is out, China is out) but we now do more business with the rest of the world than the EU anyway.

I have read that only 15% of UK businesses deal with the EU but 100% are bound by it. As for "not being at the table when regulations are set": The Chinese aren't either but they better at selling to the EU anyway, UK business selling elsewhere in the world aren't but are doing better than the EU centric ones. So does it really matter?

Laws - see above, also the majority of EU laws are very beneficial.

Not sure what laws you mean - I guess you mean employment laws. In which case you're wrong. The UK has better holidays/conditions than most of the rest of europe already, if the Tories wanted to they could have reduced them already. They can't because they would be kicked straight out if they did. What products employees rights is being able to hold the law makers to account. See Andrew Neil vs Hilary Benn for this (linked to it previously). How do we go about kicking out commissioners? We can't....

But if its the number of laws coming from the EU then best calculations is between 16-62% of UK law now coming from the EU: https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-w...influenced-eu/

End of the day ask yourself this - Is your current situation so shit and dire you are willing to risk everything you have (job, home, car, way of life) in order to possibly make it a little better?

IMO there is much more to loose than gain so its just not worth it.

But will staying in the EU better long term?

Greece is going bust (we'll have to bail it out*), Spain, Portugal, Italy and France and going the same way. The value of the single market is stagnant, and shrinking globally, but the EU locks us out of new deals - so trade is likely to suffer. We've given away the ability to control who lives here, our directly elected representatives are over ruled by the ECJ (who are unelected) so we can't do what we feel is best for us (votes for prisoners etc..). As new states join (and they will) they will also be net receivers then our contribution will have to increase (as it did when they recalculated it - Cameron said we won't pay, but they did anyway) and we can't prevent it (majority voting on it).

If the EU is so great why don't Iceland, Norway and Switzerland want to join? If uncontrolled migration is great why doesn't anywhere else have it?

There is as much risk in staying as going - but we control the risk if we leave.

*But we have an exemption on bailing out the Euro Remain say. The EU treaties that brought in the Euro state that countries will not bail each other out. This is a fundamental principle of the Euro. How did that work out with Ireland and Greece?

[misterjake]

If anything, this referendum makes me want to leave the planet, preferably.

I havent seen a single argument, for either Leave or Remain, that isnt some b******t statistic, half truth, cherry-picked out of context, rubbish.

The only thing that sways my vote is the justification I see from so many people to vote Leave - the kind of moronic, on-the-dole, Britain First, keyboard warriors who base what is one of the biggest decisions in the UK on what they read on Facebook each morning - immigration this, immigration that.

Whether or not the UK is EU or not has little impact when you are clung to the underside of a flatbed in Calais.

Politics is f****d, and whichever way we vote, the UK is too, and I think a lot of people mistakenly think a Leave vote can fix this.

Now, I havent decided on my vote and I honestly think I wont until its there infront of me.