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Thread: WOT No EU Referendum Thread?

  1. #1281
    Member stoofer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeonatLarge View Post
    Irish voters reject EU federalist Veradkar.

    Another nail in the EU's coffin.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-51441410

    The Irish election result verifies why proportional representation will not work well in the UK, it could possibly take the Irish months to form a government and that government does not have to include Sinn Fein even though they have only one seat less than the winner the other two partys could decide to form a coalition without them.
    I don't see why your logic follows? PR = majority of votes forms government, why is having more of your votes reflected in the government bad?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asht_200 View Post
    Iím not sure how you come to that conclusion. The biggest winner was Sinn Fein and they have an advantage considering Northern Ireland will remain in the Single Market.

    All 3 of the parties are Pro EU


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    Quite simple really.....Veradkars party has come last out of the three, thus the Irish voters have rejected him, he is an EU federalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stoofer View Post
    I don't see why your logic follows? PR = majority of votes forms government, why is having more of your votes reflected in the government bad?
    Because it is more difficult to form a functioning government and nigh on impossible to stick to the manifesto of each party that the electorate voted on.

    For example the conlib coalition annihilated the Liberal Democrats as they could not honour their manifesto ( tuition fees )
    Last edited by LeonatLarge; 11-02-2020 at 14:41.

  4. #1284
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeonatLarge View Post
    Because it is more difficult to form a functioning government and nigh on impossible to stick to the manifesto of each party that the electorate voted on.

    For example the conlib coalition annihilated the Liberal Democrats as they could not honour their manifesto ( tuition fees )
    It's more difficult by design, and compromise has to be reached on manifestos. The Libs totally messed up in coalition, but that's not to say it doesn't work in principle (the Lib Dems said at the time around 75% of their manifesto made it in to the coalition agreement...). But then... manifestos... Ah... manifestos. I have issues with manifestos. 1: Who reads them and decides their vote based on their own critical analysis? Almost no-one. 2: What compels a government to stick to them? Not much. 3: Do governments stick to them? Not really. https://www.instituteforgovernment.o...matter-anymore

    The upside of PR, being that most of the popular vote forms the government, is a big, big upside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stoofer View Post
    It's more difficult by design, and compromise has to be reached on manifestos. The Libs totally messed up in coalition, but that's not to say it doesn't work in principle (the Lib Dems said at the time around 75% of their manifesto made it in to the coalition agreement...). But then... manifestos... Ah... manifestos. I have issues with manifestos. 1: Who reads them and decides their vote based on their own critical analysis? Almost no-one. 2: What compels a government to stick to them? Not much. 3: Do governments stick to them? Not really. https://www.instituteforgovernment.o...matter-anymore

    The upside of PR, being that most of the popular vote forms the government, is a big, big upside.
    I can understand what you are saying, in principle it works but in reality you will get a hung parliament or a coalition government that will not be able to deliver on their policies as it will be voted down or they will have to appease their coalition partners.

    Our first past the post system currently gives us a clear choice of Liebour or Conservative and allows us to elect a government that can actually govern without compromise and deliver the will of the people with an iron fist

    PR in the UK would see the likes of the BNP, Islamic fundamentalists and the EDL winning many seats these seats will be taken away from the Liebour party so in reality PR in the UK would deliver a perpetual Tory government.

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    Your childish antagonism is becoming tiresome, Leon.

    Liebour ? Rly ? Grow up.

    ...and no, I'm not a labour supporter. Its tiresome because I'm an adult.

  7. #1287
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeonatLarge View Post
    Quite simple really.....Veradkars party has come last out of the three, thus the Irish voters have rejected him, he is an EU federalist.
    Sinn Fein won the popular vote based on 1st preference but came 2nd due to 2nd preference

    They wanted Northern Ireland to remain in the single market, all 3 parties want to remain in the single market so not sure what your point was

    Your earlier topic about Germany isnít so simple. Germany cannot dictate EU policy without getting agreement from the other member states and that means appeasing the other states (read greasing palms) which if your earlier posts about the German economy are true, they cannot afford


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    Quote Originally Posted by Asht_200 View Post
    Sinn Fein won the popular vote based on 1st preference but came 2nd due to 2nd preference

    They wanted Northern Ireland to remain in the single market, all 3 parties want to remain in the single market so not sure what your point was

    Your earlier topic about Germany isn’t so simple. Germany cannot dictate EU policy without getting agreement from the other member states and that means appeasing the other states (read greasing palms) which if your earlier posts about the German economy are true, they cannot afford


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    You must be referring to my point that it will be another nail in the coffin for the EU?

    Northern Ireland is a huge financial burden to the UK it costs us a fortune in stopping them from slaughtering each other and welfare.

    If Sinn Fein form a government they will push for reunification this will mean Ireland will be under EU control and nothing to do with the UK so the EU will have to foot the huge bill.

    The Catholics with strength in numbers and financial backing from the US will try to slaughter the protestants who will no longer have the protection of the UK armed forces.

    This will cost the EU a fortune as they try and stop and police Ireland as it descends into a civil war.

    Germany does dictate EU policy.

    They have the finances even though they are in recession, it comes down to political will and power are the German people willing to fund the failing EU project when they are feeling the effects of a recession?
    Last edited by LeonatLarge; 11-02-2020 at 18:29.

  9. #1289
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeonatLarge View Post
    I can understand what you are saying, in principle it works but in reality you will get a hung parliament or a coalition government that will not be able to deliver on their policies as it will be voted down or they will have to appease their coalition partners.

    Our first past the post system currently gives us a clear choice of Liebour or Conservative and allows us to elect a government that can actually govern without compromise and deliver the will of the people with an iron fist

    PR in the UK would see the likes of the BNP, Islamic fundamentalists and the EDL winning many seats these seats will be taken away from the Liebour party so in reality PR in the UK would deliver a perpetual Tory government.
    I'd rather a collaboration of the will of the majority than an iron fist of the minority, the UK system is designed to do the latter. "The will of the people" should surely be the majority of the people, right?

    Suggesting the far right parties take vote share from the left in a PR system is... odd... let's take the last general election as our example, an outlier for Tory success such as it is and with both "tactical voting" and selective candidacies, which wouldn't exist in PR...

    Cons vote share: 43.6%
    Labour: 32.2
    Lib Dem: 11.5
    SNP: 3.9
    Green: 2.7
    DUP: 0.8
    Sinn Fein: 0.6
    Plaid: 0.5
    Alliance: 0.4
    SDLP: 0.4

    Current system: Cons have overwhelming majority in commons and can do what they like for 4 years, and can discard all manifesto pledges with zero accountability. As we've moved away from the age where major transgressions would be a career ending event and are now more likely to turn you into a party leader, accountability is a serious issue.
    PR system: Cons try to form a govt with Lib Dems, an agreement which would see some representation of Lib Dem ideas and a tempering of some more extreme Con agenda points. With the agreement forming the basis of power. Major deviation sees the agreement break down as Cons are accountable to Lib Dems for govt to work. If Lib Dems/Cons can't form an agreement, A "Left Alliance" of everyone but Cons could try to form an agreement, but it would be difficult and likely result in a new General Election.

    I don't think PR is perfect, but I do think needing a govt to have a majority of the the actual vote is both better and more democratic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stoofer View Post
    I'd rather a collaboration of the will of the majority than an iron fist of the minority, the UK system is designed to do the latter. "The will of the people" should surely be the majority of the people, right?

    Suggesting the far right parties take vote share from the left in a PR system is... odd... let's take the last general election as our example, an outlier for Tory success such as it is and with both "tactical voting" and selective candidacies, which wouldn't exist in PR...

    Cons vote share: 43.6%
    Labour: 32.2
    Lib Dem: 11.5
    SNP: 3.9
    Green: 2.7
    DUP: 0.8
    Sinn Fein: 0.6
    Plaid: 0.5
    Alliance: 0.4
    SDLP: 0.4

    Current system: Cons have overwhelming majority in commons and can do what they like for 4 years, and can discard all manifesto pledges with zero accountability. As we've moved away from the age where major transgressions would be a career ending event and are now more likely to turn you into a party leader, accountability is a serious issue.
    PR system: Cons try to form a govt with Lib Dems, an agreement which would see some representation of Lib Dem ideas and a tempering of some more extreme Con agenda points. With the agreement forming the basis of power. Major deviation sees the agreement break down as Cons are accountable to Lib Dems for govt to work. If Lib Dems/Cons can't form an agreement, A "Left Alliance" of everyone but Cons could try to form an agreement, but it would be difficult and likely result in a new General Election.

    I don't think PR is perfect, but I do think needing a govt to have a majority of the the actual vote is both better and more democratic.

    I disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by stoofer View Post
    I'd rather a collaboration of the will of the majority than an iron fist of the minority, the UK system is designed to do the latter. "The will of the people" should surely be the majority of the people, right?

    As the figures you have provided show, far more people voted for the conservative party than any other party. As I have said many times before it is absurd to try and apply a PR system to an electoral result from a first past the post system.

    We have a first past the post system, the Conservatives won the election and have been given a massive majority by the people.


    Quote Originally Posted by stoofer View Post
    Suggesting the far right parties take vote share from the left in a PR system is... odd... let's take the last general election as our example, an outlier for Tory success such as it is and with both "tactical voting" and selective candidacies, which wouldn't exist in PR...
    The whole idea that voters and political parties can be be put into left and right categories doesn't work in the UK, Labour are allegedly left but they are racist and always have been, racism is usually associated with the far right.

    In the north midlands and in other parts of the country some people will never vote Tory, so have to vote Liebour or waste their vote, in a PR system I believe some of the old coal miners and industrial workers who normally vote red would vote BNP, some of the younger working/middle class people who would normally vote red, or not vote at all would vote EDL, I can't see the muslims voting for the new centrist Labour party that is being concieved, they supported Corbyn's foreign policy and an opposing political candidate from an islamic political party would soon point out how many of the Labour MPs are in the LFI.




    Quote Originally Posted by stoofer View Post
    I don't think PR is perfect, but I do think needing a govt to have a majority of the the actual vote is both better and more democratic.
    I can understand what you are saying regarding the ideals of democracy, I voted for PR in 2011, I now believe in reality PR will just create the illusion of democracy, a true government will become a thing of the past, coalitions will form governments that will not be able to fulfil the will of their voters, all we will see is the greasy palmed will of the political elite.

  11. #1291
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    How did you manage to vote for PR in 2011? Lib Dem’s didn’t manage to get PR onto the referendum...

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    Quote Originally Posted by stoofer View Post
    How did you manage to vote for PR in 2011? Lib Demís didnít manage to get PR onto the referendum...
    Does it matter? People support PR when the result goes their way lol


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    Maybe Leon is right about the way the EU is going, but please donít pray for it.

    If the EU implodes, it will have ramifications for everyone


    https://www.theguardian.com/business...ys-mervyn-king


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    Quote Originally Posted by stoofer View Post
    How did you manage to vote for PR in 2011? Lib Dem’s didn’t manage to get PR onto the referendum...

    You must have missed it, most people did, turn out was awful, I view AV as a form as PR.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011...ote_referendum
    Last edited by LeonatLarge; 13-02-2020 at 09:11.

  15. #1295
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeonatLarge View Post
    You must have missed it, most people did, turn out was awful, I view AV as a form as PR.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011...ote_referendum
    Didn't miss it. Voted. AV is not a form of PR, you're wrong.

    https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/...ernative-vote/

    "What is the Alternative Vote?
    The Alternative Vote is not a form of proportional representation."

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeonatLarge View Post
    The Catholics with strength in numbers and financial backing from the US will try to slaughter the protestants who will no longer have the protection of the UK armed forces.

    This will cost the EU a fortune as they try and stop and police Ireland as it descends into a civil war.?
    Do you know anything about the history of the troubles in the north ? because that statement sounds like a ****ing idiot that doesnt

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    Quote Originally Posted by simon_irl View Post
    Do you know anything about the history of the troubles in the north ? because that statement sounds like a ****ing idiot that doesnt
    Letís not get too irate.

    Comments talking about slaughter just speak of ignorance.

    He forgets that since Northern Ireland although part of the Single Market will remain part of the UK so British forces will be obliged to intervene.

    Leon seems to talk gleefully about the collapse of the European Union, Merkel being ousted from power in Germany. How we will get a great trade deal from the protectionist Donald Trump. Not forgetting that world peace is a fragile thing. The rise in the standoff between Russia and the West, Trump swaggering on Twitter etc. Who the hell in the secret service and state department allowed him to have social media (first US president to get it)

    With the rise of right wing politics across Europe, letís remember it wasnít long ago that Europe was at War. I will admit there are many faults with the EU, but we canít deny the steps made have secured peace in what was a fragile thing.

    Sure there is inequality across Europe, 10 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, you could see it in Berlin, but we have the same inequality in the UK, yet the people who voted Brexit are also against HS2 which is at least trying to connect the North to the South East (again flawed)

    To come back to the troubles in the North of The Emerald Isle. Leon, have you ever felt the rumble of the ground when a car bomb goes off? See the fear in peopleís eyes, see the panic. Thatís speaking as a civilian. I was there when the IRA detonated a car bomb in Colchester 1989. It is terrifying.

    Donít wish for the collapse of political and social instability. You May get what you wish for


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    Quote Originally Posted by simon_irl View Post
    Do you know anything about the history of the troubles in the north ? because that statement sounds like a ****ing idiot that doesnt
    Tell me why I'm wrong then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeonatLarge View Post
    Tell me why I'm wrong then.
    Itís not that you are wrong. Itís that you sound excited and gleeful about this, just to prove a point


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    Quote Originally Posted by Asht_200 View Post
    Let’s not get too irate.

    Comments talking about slaughter just speak of ignorance.

    He forgets that since Northern Ireland although part of the Single Market will remain part of the UK so British forces will be obliged to intervene.

    Leon seems to talk gleefully about the collapse of the European Union, Merkel being ousted from power in Germany. How we will get a great trade deal from the protectionist Donald Trump. Not forgetting that world peace is a fragile thing. The rise in the standoff between Russia and the West, Trump swaggering on Twitter etc. Who the hell in the secret service and state department allowed him to have social media (first US president to get it)

    With the rise of right wing politics across Europe, let’s remember it wasn’t long ago that Europe was at War. I will admit there are many faults with the EU, but we can’t deny the steps made have secured peace in what was a fragile thing.

    Sure there is inequality across Europe, 10 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, you could see it in Berlin, but we have the same inequality in the UK, yet the people who voted Brexit are also against HS2 which is at least trying to connect the North to the South East (again flawed)

    To come back to the troubles in the North of The Emerald Isle. Leon, have you ever felt the rumble of the ground when a car bomb goes off? See the fear in people’s eyes, see the panic. That’s speaking as a civilian. I was there when the IRA detonated a car bomb in Colchester 1989. It is terrifying.

    Don’t wish for the collapse of political and social instability. You May get what you wish for


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    Northern Ireland will not remain part of the UK if Sinn Fein are in government and push for unification and the UK decide to give them it back, it will be part of Ireland.

    It will save us a fortune, and as Ireland has virtually no army I can't see how they will police the north.

    We have not had world peace for well over twenty five years, I believe peace in europe will not last, Russia wants the eastern block back, Trump has had enough of paying for the EU's defence through NATO and now we have left them.

    I do not wish for the collapse of social and political stability, I detest war and violence as most of the time it is the children that suffer the most, unfortunately the elites love war and violence, as it is big business for them and gives them greater control over the masses ( divide and conquer) and can also bring in regime change in their favour.
    Last edited by LeonatLarge; 13-02-2020 at 12:21.

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