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Thread: WOT No EU Referendum Thread?

  1. #1161
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    Leaving the single market also wasn’t endorsed by the leave campaign, even quoted as madness by some Brexiteers. Here’s a list.

    https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry...zV0KCVOgrleIDd

    Yet here we are.

  2. #1162
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    Ash, Iím talking about inside the EU bloc itself. In order to trade with them we would have to provide our WTO schedule and get approval from the member nations for the internal arrangements.

  3. #1163
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    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post
    Ash, Iím talking about inside the EU bloc itself. In order to trade with them we would have to provide our WTO schedule and get approval from the member nations for the internal arrangements.
    Not quite as simple. Unless we came to an agreement to put the EU as an MFN, then we would have to treat them as equally with countries like Somalia etc


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  4. #1164
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    I know. That’s why I’m talking about the internal distribution of quota that the EU decides among itself.

  5. #1165
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    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post
    That's a terrible modification of the analogy.

    The default in any failed negotiation is to walk away and return to the status quo. Buying a car. Buying a house. Negotiating a trade deal.

    Go to negotiate. Can't get better? Return to what you have.

    We won't be able to do that. If we fail this negotiation we potentially have no trade deals in place at all at the end of the transition. That's the point. I'm not saying we won't organise more, but it's not honest to ignore the fact that we'll have less than when we started.

    You're also conveniently making out that we'll go elsewhere for trade deals. There is no scenario in which we don't have a trade deal with the EU eventually. It's too big a bloc to not engage with. You need access to their quotas as part of the negotiations, WTO doesn't address that.

    So we will, in any case, end up with a worse trade deal with the EU than the one we have now. This is not an arguable point.
    No I disagree, your analogy can't be applied to us leaving the EU, as it would be in the EU's interest to offer us an unsatisfactory deal, which would force us to stay in the bloc, that has been tried already and the people are wise to it.

    We do not need a trade deal from the EU, we have a 93 billion pound trade defecit in our favour, and we would do quite well from the tariffs that will be applied on WTO terms if a satisfactory agreement can not be reached.

    At the moment we have free trade with the EU, so any agreement we come to other than another free trade agreement would be worse than the deal we have at the moment, this is democracy, the people voted to leave, not to leave on the condition that we get a free trade deal with the EU.

    It is possible we could end up with a worse trade deal with the EU than what we have now, without the EU's protectionism we will be able to negotiate much more favourable trade deals with the rest of the world and as you know the rest of the world is much larger than the EU.
    Last edited by LeonatLarge; 21-01-2020 at 12:12.

  6. #1166
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoofer View Post
    Blatant lie, leaving the EU and remaining in the customs union was never put to the vote in parliament, nor to the public. Indeed it would likely have sailed through parliament. Theresa May never put *any* long term deal before the people nor parliament, it was deferred out of the scope of her agreement, which it likely why it was always rejected.
    No, you are incorrect you have failed to grasp my analogy.
    Treason May's deal to me and many leave voters was just a remain lite, the people knew what the remainer Treason May was up to and shown their dissatisfaction at the European elections which sent shock waves through the entire Conservative Party.

  7. #1167
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    Quote Originally Posted by piman2k View Post
    Leaving the single market also wasn’t endorsed by the leave campaign, even quoted as madness by some Brexiteers. Here’s a list.

    https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry...zV0KCVOgrleIDd

    Yet here we are.
    What a shame, looking at how the negotiations are going we will be leaving the single market very soon.

  8. #1168
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    LOL!

    Openly admitting that something the Brexit campaign said wouldn't be sought, happen or be a good idea, and then just saying 'what a shame'. Says it all doesn't it! Makes it even easier to dismiss Brexiteers when they say they knew what they voted for.

    The analogy has nothing to do with opinions about the deal. It's simply do a deal and change or don't do a deal and go back to how it was.

  9. #1169
    Guest stoofer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeonatLarge View Post
    No, you are incorrect you have failed to grasp my analogy.
    Treason May's deal to me and many leave voters was just a remain lite, the people knew what the remainer Treason May was up to and shown their dissatisfaction at the European elections which sent shock waves through the entire Conservative Party.
    I wasn't replying to an analogy, I responded to a false statement. If you chose to believe the opposite of what Theresa May actually said then... yay for you?

    If I were replying to your analogy, it would be that there are literally tens of thousands of cars I can buy and walking away from one has zero negative impact on me, other than the time to look at additional cars. Your analogy is over-simplistic and flawed.

    FWIW I agree with this man: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7Mhokzv-jw

  10. #1170
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    Haha, he's speaking sense. They should make him PM.

    Here's another one

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xGt3QmRSZY

  11. #1171
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoofer View Post
    I wasn't replying to an analogy, I responded to a false statement. If you chose to believe the opposite of what Theresa May actually said then... yay for you?

    If I were replying to your analogy, it would be that there are literally tens of thousands of cars I can buy and walking away from one has zero negative impact on me, other than the time to look at additional cars. Your analogy is over-simplistic and flawed.

    FWIW I agree with this man: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7Mhokzv-jw
    Me and the majority of the country didn't believe what Treason May said.

  12. #1172
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoofer View Post

    FWIW I agree with this man: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7Mhokzv-jw
    The Prime Minister represents the will of the people who voted for him, and not his own design as he is a democrat.
    Last edited by LeonatLarge; 21-01-2020 at 16:32.

  13. #1173
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    Oh give it a rest lololol.

    He changed his tune before he was PM, when whatever on his agenda changed. Honestly it’s making my skin crawl watching you try and make excuses.

  14. #1174
    Guest stoofer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeonatLarge View Post
    The Prime Minister represents the will of the people who voted for him, and not his own design as he is a democrat.
    This Prime Minister in particular or all Prime Ministers? His constituents or the country? As most voters didn't vote for him, shouldn't he throw his manifesto in the bin? Why would you trust this one and not Theresa May (who also flip-flopped her opinion based on what the papers were saying)? Why don't we govern by having a referendum for everything as it's the only way to know what the will of the people actually is?

  15. #1175
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoofer View Post
    Why don't we govern by having a referendum for everything as it's the only way to know what the will of the people actually is?
    You got to be joking, we have had two high level referendums in the past few years and with both of them the winners and losers bicker like children because they dont like the result.

    Imaging if everything was decided like that.. flipping heck..

  16. #1176
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    Then again it would be a good laugh and power millions of forum threads for years to come

  17. #1177
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeonatLarge View Post
    The Prime Minister represents the will of the people who voted for him, and not his own design as he is a democrat.

    Quote Originally Posted by stoofer View Post
    This Prime Minister in particular or all Prime Ministers? His constituents or the country? As most voters didn't vote for him, shouldn't he throw his manifesto in the bin? Why would you trust this one and not Theresa May (who also flip-flopped her opinion based on what the papers were saying)? Why don't we govern by having a referendum for everything as it's the only way to know what the will of the people actually is?

    The Prime Minister is Boris Johnson.

    The will of the people that voted for him = the people that voted conservative ( blue)

    Treason May was the worst Prime Minister in history, who lied constantly, lost a majority, and tried to thwart the will of the people, she was absolutely awful, why on earth would anyone trust her.

    Boris Johnson so far has delivered on everything he has said, and he also has DC as an advisor, DC is a master mind, he manipulated remoaning parliment to conform to his will with great ease, he is always three steps ahead.

    Having a referendum on everything would be costly and divisive.

  18. #1178
    Guest stoofer's Avatar
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    @sideways14a, I'm (hopefully) clearly being flippant

    We don't elect a Prime Minister, we elect an MP. He who has the most MPs makes a government. That party decides, at any point and through various means, who the PM is. The PM selects a small group of people to be the government. That government decides national policy. My point is the PM and the govt is pretty far removed from being a direct link to "the will of the people", at best it's the current "will of the majority party" and the only way to ensure it would be is to have a referendum on everything.

    To illustrate how we don't vote for a PM, the following became PM without a general election: Boris, May, Brown, Major. During this time only Cameron and Blair became PM as the result of an election.

  19. #1179
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    Will of the fcuking people again. Jesus, how many times are we going to go through this Leon.

    It's not the will of the fcuking people that got Johnson in. It's an unsuitable electoral system.

    Ignoring the obvious point that people don't vote for a PM which we all agree on, more people did not vote for the Conservatives than did.

  20. #1180
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoofer View Post
    @sideways14a, I'm (hopefully) clearly being flippant

    We don't elect a Prime Minister, we elect an MP. He who has the most MPs makes a government. That party decides, at any point and through various means, who the PM is. The PM selects a small group of people to be the government. That government decides national policy. My point is the PM and the govt is pretty far removed from being a direct link to "the will of the people", at best it's the current "will of the majority party" and the only way to ensure it would be is to have a referendum on everything.

    To illustrate how we don't vote for a PM, the following became PM without a general election: Boris, May, Brown, Major. During this time only Cameron and Blair became PM as the result of an election.
    Thank you for your explanation regarding our voting system, I'm well aware of how our voting system works, In reality people vote for the party, the perspective Prime minister and the manifesto, this is why Liebour got annihilated in the recent general election, most intelligent people could not bring themselves to vote for Corbyn or his awful Liebour party or that ridiculous wish list of a manifesto.

    The Prime Minister Boris Johnson called the last general election because he could not get his withdrawal agreement through the remoaning parliment, he said he needed a mandate from the people to get Brexit done and the people gave him a massive majority.

    This means the present government and prime minister do have a direct link to the will of the people, as the people gave him the biggest majority in decades so he could get Brexit done.
    Last edited by LeonatLarge; 22-01-2020 at 09:20.

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