Wing height

[MadManMeasures]

I have got myself a big gay wing for my track orientated S14A and I'm currently in the process of building some mounts for it, I am planning on making them so the wing sits at around the same level as the roof. But I'm not too sure what the optimum height would be I.e. slightly above or slightly below roof height. Any advice would be much appreciated.

[piman2k]

There is no optimum bud. If you wanted a general, broad and totally generic solution, I would say go for the roof height minus 20mm. The more you can make the air on your car behave like an estate car, the better a chance at gains you'll have.

But that really, really is awfully broad. Without knowing anything about your wing it would be impossible to say what was best.

[MadManMeasures]

Thanks, I will take a couple of pictures of the wing when I get a chance tonight an post them up so you can get a bit more of an idea about the wing I have.

[piman2k]

Build yourself an adjuster into it so you can set the angle. Will give you a degree of freedom to experiment with.

[MadManMeasures]

Yeah. I have been planning on making an adjuster, this is what I have built so far


And this is the profile

[piman2k]

That's quite a lot of camber in the wing, but that could be fun. You'll definitely need your adjuster as you say. Consider driving with and without a gurney flap as well, see if you notice any difference. The mount looks quite heavy duty!

[Si]

That's, err, that's a wing. Definitely a wing.

I know nothing about aero, but I'd have thought you need some sort of cross bracing to stop that being all wobbly. Criss cross of steel cable in the middle is the way it's sometimes done

[Yakko]

Chord of that wing looks a bit excessive. I think you'll have laminar flow issues. (Based on what I know about sails, which are basically wings, right?)

[ANDY black s13]

Wow!,,,,, now that's a proper spoiler , please tell me the uprights and the lower mount is aluminum?
looks like it will double as a bumper bar as well , it looks very nice btw,

[BLAKTOOTH]

Fook me! You'll be able to drive upside down in tunnels with that mofo What's the rest of the car look like?

[MadManMeasures]

Thanks for all the replays. Once its all fitted properly I will see if I can get a gurney flap made to fit it, I have made the mounts pretty dam strong, I can hang off either one of the uprights without any flex. The uprights and soils bits that go into the chassis rails are aluminium but the cross bars the uprights bolt too are hollow rectangle section steel, the whole assembly isn't as heavy as it looks. Once I get the wing bolted up I will see if I get any side to side flex. The rest of the car isn't anything that special really still very much a work in progress, I plan on building a splitter once the wing is finished. Then I am thinking about going for more power and getting a track orientated diff.

[BLAKTOOTH]

Thanks for all the replays. Once its all fitted properly I will see if I can get a gurney flap made to fit it, I have made the mounts pretty dam strong, I can hang off either one of the uprights without any flex. The uprights and soils bits that go into the chassis rails are aluminium but the cross bars the uprights bolt too are hollow rectangle section steel, the whole assembly isn't as heavy as it looks. Once I get the wing bolted up I will see if I get any side to side flex. The rest of the car isn't anything that special really still very much a work in progress, I plan on building a splitter once the wing is finished. Then I am thinking about going for more power and getting a track orientated diff.

I don't mean to shatter your dreams or p!ss on your sausage but do you not think all that wing is a little OTT? I'd have thought you'd need to be building the 3rd Gobstopper to warrant a wing of that magnitude. It's your car mate so obviously you can do what you want but if you ask me that looks a touch overkill for a fairly stock car.

[ANDY black s13]

I like it, I like the whole road legal track car aggressive time attack stylee thing tbh
its a work in progress so it will all blend together when splitter and canards etc are added
my knowledge on aero is limited,but I have done some experiments with various wings spoilers
nothing as hench as that design, but they do make a massive difference to stability at speed
at 130+ car can go from a floaty arse end (like de-spoilered) to hunkered down and feeling like the corner could be taken faster
but at 130+ the drag is noticeable and slows the car down,limits top end or takes more track to get there
I haven't done anything with the front yet,but a DIY splitter/canards like blacktooths is on the cards

if it does suffer from wobbling/shimmy due to the length of the legs, you may only need one diagonal strut
if its a solid piece it will work in both directions ie extension or compression forces

mount a go pro (or any lickle camera) on the roof and you could watch back after a drive to see what its doing

[MadManMeasures]

I don't mean to shatter your dreams or p!ss on your sausage but do you not think all that wing is a little OTT? I'd have thought you'd need to be building the 3rd Gobstopper to warrant a wing of that magnitude. It's your car mate so obviously you can do what you want but if you ask me that looks a touch overkill for a fairly stock car.

I do agree that its a bit OTT at my current stage of tune but I want to get the suspension brakes an aero all sorted and learn how the car handles on track before I go for big power (currently running 308 bhp 320 ft/lb on a custom H-dev chip, 356 mm K-sport front brakes, R33 gtst rears, apex gen 2 coilovers 8/6 (thinking about upgrading to BC er's) poly, solid bushed or rose jointed everything, alignment and corner weighting done by jez) once I am happy with the handling, braking and aero I am planning on upgrading to a GT2871R .86 welding the wastegate shut and going external, 740's, better valve springs, MHG, possibly cams and stand alone.

[MadManMeasures]

I like it, I like the whole road legal track car aggressive time attack stylee thing tbh
its a work in progress so it will all blend together when splitter and canards etc are added
my knowledge on aero is limited,but I have done some experiments with various wings spoilers
nothing as hench as that design, but they do make a massive difference to stability at speed
at 130+ car can go from a floaty arse end (like de-spoilered) to hunkered down and feeling like the corner could be taken faster
but at 130+ the drag is noticeable and slows the car down,limits top end or takes more track to get there
I haven't done anything with the front yet,but a DIY splitter/canards like blacktooths is on the cards

if it does suffer from wobbling/shimmy due to the length of the legs, you may only need one diagonal strut
if its a solid piece it will work in both directions ie extension or compression forces

mount a go pro (or any lickle camera) on the roof and you could watch back after a drive to see what its doing

Thanks. I am very interested to see what if any difference my aero package makes next time I am out on track, I like the idea of mounting a go pro to check for flex.

[BLAKTOOTH]

I do agree that its a bit OTT at my current stage of tune but I want to get the suspension brakes an aero all sorted and learn how the car handles on track before I go for big power (currently running 308 bhp 320 ft/lb on a custom H-dev chip, 356 mm K-sport front brakes, R33 gtst rears, apex gen 2 coilovers 8/6 (thinking about upgrading to BC er's) poly, solid bushed or rose jointed everything, alignment and corner weighting done by jez) once I am happy with the handling, braking and aero I am planning on upgrading to a GT2871R .86 welding the wastegate shut and going external, 740's, better valve springs, MHG, possibly cams and stand alone.

I'd say aero is the last thing to worry about. Find the limits of the car without it first in order to know what It is you might require. I did just about every possible thing to make my car drive well on track before I added aero. If I'm honest it handled pretty well when it was without wing or splitter. Had a number of years getting the brakes setup correctly, the suspension components dialled in, heat managed and multiple tyres tested. Unless you're an expert and already know exactly how to make a fast 200 then I'd say forget the aero until the rest of the car's done. Unless of course the wing's more for aesthetics than performance. Just my 2 cents. Please don't take offence as I'm not trying to patronise or school you. Just giving some advice from experience.

[tomo1]

For wing height on production based cars the higher the better according to the results in Racecar Engineer "Aero Bytes". You'd only go lower on a car like a prototype to help drive a diffuser.... so looks like it's in the correct spot.

How wide and what is the chord length and max thickness?

As per Si's point about mount wobble; if you do find some on track you could also add a small diameter horizontal tube or aero profile between the stays instead of wires which will tie the stays together like the rungs of a ladder - all depends on what look you prefer... personally I don't like wires.

Blacktooth I'd disagree slightly that aero is not worth developing initially, since stability out of a fast sweeper that is flat with wing but a big lift without can be worth way more than 50bhp down the next straight. I do agree though that understanding the characteristics of the car first is important - there's no point developing tons of rear downforce on a car that already understeers, for instance.

[_Jamie_]

I'd say aero is the last thing to worry about. Find the limits of the car without it first in order to know what It is you might require. I did just about every possible thing to make my car drive well on track before I added aero. If I'm honest it handled pretty well when it was without wing or splitter. Had a number of years getting the brakes setup correctly, the suspension components dialled in, heat managed and multiple tyres tested. Unless you're an expert and already know exactly how to make a fast 200 then I'd say forget the aero until the rest of the car's done. Unless of course the wing's more for aesthetics than performance. Just my 2 cents. Please don't take offence as I'm not trying to patronise or school you. Just giving some advice from experience.

This x1000.

Listen to what this man has to say, His car is very, very well sorted and thought out.

Blacktooth I'd disagree slightly that aero is not worth developing initially, since stability out of a fast sweeper that is flat with wing but a big lift without can be worth way more than 50bhp down the next straight. I do agree though that understanding the characteristics of the car first is important - there's no point developing tons of rear downforce on a car that already understeers, for instance.

Going to have to pick you out on this, On a TD car i wouldn't bother with aero til everything else was sorted. Its not a race car so any time gained through said fast sweeper you mentioned isn't that important.

Plus OP's car looks like it could do with work on a lot of other areas before aero. I would personally be getting a proper cage/buckets and sorting the chassis first before even contemplating aero. Especially with something as massive as in the original post, Interesting to say the least....

[MadManMeasures]

I'd say aero is the last thing to worry about. Find the limits of the car without it first in order to know what It is you might require. I did just about every possible thing to make my car drive well on track before I added aero. If I'm honest it handled pretty well when it was without wing or splitter. Had a number of years getting the brakes setup correctly, the suspension components dialled in, heat managed and multiple tyres tested. Unless you're an expert and already know exactly how to make a fast 200 then I'd say forget the aero until the rest of the car's done. Unless of course the wing's more for aesthetics than performance. Just my 2 cents. Please don't take offence as I'm not trying to patronise or school you. Just giving some advice from experience.

I do see your point, maybe I should have waited a bit longer before adding aero. The reason I am doing it is because even after trying sevrel different alignment settings, different damping settings and several different tyres the back end is still s bit light round fast corners, its much better than it was when I first took the car on track a couple of years ago but I think it could still be greatly improved by adding the wing.

[MadManMeasures]

For wing height on production based cars the higher the better according to the results in Racecar Engineer "Aero Bytes". You'd only go lower on a car like a prototype to help drive a diffuser.... so looks like it's in the correct spot.

How wide and what is the chord length and max thickness?

As per Si's point about mount wobble; if you do find some on track you could also add a small diameter horizontal tube or aero profile between the stays instead of wires which will tie the stays together like the rungs of a ladder - all depends on what look you prefer... personally I don't like wires.

Blacktooth I'd disagree slightly that aero is not worth developing initially, since stability out of a fast sweeper that is flat with wing but a big lift without can be worth way more than 50bhp down the next straight. I do agree though that understanding the characteristics of the car first is important - there's no point developing tons of rear downforce on a car that already understeers, for instance.

The wing is 1800mm wide with a chord length of 250mm and a depth of 80mm. Currently I don't think it will wobble very much as the uprights are pretty solid (10mm aluminium plate) but if I do get wobble then I think a horizontal bar would be good