Baffled sump questions?

[daveyboydave]

It would appear, from this thread alone, that there are perceived quality issues with Tomei and Greddy sumps at £300-£400. I think I paid £130 for my Japspeed one. It's not the most stunning bit of workmanship but perfectly functional and, nearly 2 years in, I've had no problems. If it becomes porous and I have to buy another one in a few years (unlikely I suspect) i've still saved money over a big name item.

A sump is just a lump of metal with some machined faces and drillings (and a few hinged plates), it's not a Swiss watch movement. I spent my money elsewhere.

I would hesitate with an eBay jobbie though. Your aftermarket support may be limited if it turns up and looks shite, and at least Japspeed is a brand people have heard of (for good or bad).

[piman2k]

It would appear, from this thread alone, that there are perceived quality issues with Tomei and Greddy sumps at £300-£400. I think I paid £130 for my Japspeed one. It's not the most stunning bit of workmanship but perfectly functional and, nearly 2 years in, I've had no problems. If it becomes porous and I have to buy another one in a few years (unlikely I suspect) i've still saved money over a big name item.

A sump is just a lump of metal with some machined faces and drillings (and a few hinged plates), it's not a Swiss watch movement. I spent my money elsewhere.

I would hesitate with an eBay jobbie though. Your aftermarket support may be limited if it turns up and looks shite, and at least Japspeed is a brand people have heard of (for good or bad).

A turbo is just a bearing in a cast body.

A shock absorber is just a tube filled with gas.

A manifold is just some welded pipe.

I get your thought, but these analogies are the same.

[ANDY black s13]

It was years ago during my initial build phase and one of the experiences that let's me shame shit quality with facts and not just stigma

Fair enough, I only questioned it as I knew your car was loaded with top name parts etc

and I would go with recent japspeed stuff is better than parts from a few years back,like its getting some sort of quality control?
I went with the Greddy sump because I could afford it at the time but I don't see it as worth the money really
a japspeed copy that dont leak will do just as good a job,just the buyer needs to do a bit of quality control checks before fitting it
loctite the screws check the hinge pins are secure,check machined face is flat and check for sand

[piman2k]

Perhaps they have, but you've only got to search exhausts on here to see they are the worst of the bunch.

I have many generic Apex parts on my car, but they have been good.

[ANDY black s13]

Perhaps they have, but you've only got to search exhausts on here to see they are the worst of the bunch.

I have many generic Apex parts on my car, but they have been good.

Agreed Apex are better from the parts I have bought from them,still comes from the far east but slightly better
I've been lucky and not had some of the fitment issues some have had going by the threads on here
about 2 years ago it was regular 'I fitted a japspeed elbow/downpipe etc and its hitting the flour/gearbox
not so many threads now,like the parts are better jigged? = less fitment issue threads ?

[spice_weazle]

Some interesting points in this thread but as a fabricator (who helps run the family business and will one day take over) and a trained toolmaker I know what goes into making these sort of parts, a lot of after market parts tbh, and any thing near £200 for a fabricated baffled sump is robbery, wether its Japspeed Apex or Tomie who has made it. Thats just my opinion.

[munkul]

A turbo is just a bearing in a cast body.

A shock absorber is just a tube filled with gas.

A manifold is just some welded pipe.

I get your thought, but these analogies are the same.

what a load of rubbish, as you should well know yourself, you're a clever chap

You can get away with very loose tolerances on a barn door, as with the trapdoors on a baffled sump. You can't get away with it on a machined shock adsorber, and even less so on a turbo.

"A sump is just a lump of metal with some machined faces and drillings (and a few hinged plates), it's not a Swiss watch movement. I spent my money elsewhere." - exactly this. I love the phrase "were not making watches" when people try to over-complicate simple things or go too far with parts that don't need the accuracy.

I spent 2 months, 3 sets of bearings and 2 cranks trying to get incredibly tight clearances on my crank main bearings when i did my rebuild, so I'm no stranger to precision. Just apply it in the right place.

[daveyboydave]

A turbo is just a bearing in a cast body.

A shock absorber is just a tube filled with gas.

A manifold is just some welded pipe.

I get your thought, but these analogies are the same.

Er, nope.

Turbos spin at tens of thousands of rpm at very high temperatures in corrosive conditions, and yet maintain very fine tolerances. The fluid dynamics and metallurgy are complex even on a fixed geometry models.

The design and construction of dampers is a science about which many books have been written - you can spend £thousands and you get what you pay for - complex valving, remote adjustability, even magnetorheological fluid.

An exhaust manifold must withstand a broad temperature range (and the associated thermal stresses), exposure to corrosive gases and vibration, and must be carefully shaped to ensure the desired mass flow rate is achieved (and equally across all cylinders). The quality of the design, material choice and fabrication are crucial for the longevity of the product.

A sump, at the end of the day, is a tub that collects warm oil (with a couple of hinged plates if it's fancy). It's not a reasonable comparison. I'm sure someone could adapt an appropriately sized baking tray to do the job without too much effort (indeed, I once changed the sump on an old Fiesta and it bore a strong resemblance to kitchenware).

Engineering basics aside, if you can pay (a frankly ridiculous) £400 for a sump, how much does an acusump system cost? Is it comparable?

[piman2k]

You can't chop up the analogy to suit your argument Dave, it doesn't make sense. Sorry bud, we have to agree to disagree.

[munkul]

So you're saying you need to mill out the hinge holes, fit some seals and journal bearings, and turn a shaft to 0.001mm accuracy, all for a hinged baffle plate in the sump? Cos that's what you're saying if you follow your logic stated here

[BLAKTOOTH]

To answer the OP's question I'd say a baffled sump is necessary for a track car. What one you buy is entirely up to you. Personally I like to keep the oil in my engine so opted for a posh Tomei pan from a reputable trader. I'd only seen one bad review so thought it was worth a punt. Turns out my pan is OK.

[Zornyan]

A sump is a metal bowl that maintains oil inside your engine and prevents oil starvation. Put it this way, would you put tescos budget oil in a new 5k fully built engine? It's only oil right? It just sloshes around and lubricates stuff eh?

Difference between a shit sump and a well built item is whether your internals decide to leave the engine and take a breath of fresh air on track...

[zeppelin101]

What is a baffled sump actually doing?

It's just restricting the flow of movement around the sump when there is sustained G on it in any direction. Oil even when hot is not exactly the thinnest fluid on the earth either is it?

The baffles in my view should not need to be at ultra fine tolerance - all you're aiming to do is limit the volume of oil moving around the sump and keep a healthy amount of it around the pickup. How long typically do you spend at a reasonable amount of G on track? Agreed a baffled sump is necessary when you're loading it up substantially but just because it has some hinges and flaps inside it, doesn't mean it's some horrendously complicated device that should cost an extortionate amount.

Comparing a baffled sump to a turbocharger in operation is comical.

[piman2k]

Comparing a baffled sump to a turbocharger in operation is comical.

It's really not, so there's no need to be patronising.

It's an analogy. A well built turbo will work well and last. A well built sump will work and last. It won't leak, it won't fall apart. That's all the analogy was there for.

[Actual_Ben_Taylor]

Just to get this back on topic...

I have the GReddy oil pan. Been fitted for around 10 years and the only issue I've had with it was the thread stripping for the sump plug. Easily resolved with a helicoil (in fact I'd suggest getting this done before you fit it anyway). Quality bit of kit, highly recommended.

[LED sandwich]

Thanks for the info guys, that's a great help. I think ill get saving up for one


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[daveyboydave]

A sump is a metal bowl that maintains oil inside your engine and prevents oil starvation. Put it this way, would you put tescos budget oil in a new 5k fully built engine? It's only oil right? It just sloshes around and lubricates stuff eh?

Sigh.

As you well know, more expensive oil is generally a more sophisticated compound that will reduce engine wear for longer and during more arduous engine conditions than cheap oil.
Similarly, a more expensive damper will generally be more sophisticated and will improve the handling of the car.
A more expensive turbo will generally have improved characteristics (spool time, boost pressure, etc.).
A more expensive manifold will generally last longer and will give improved gas flow.
A more expensive sump ... will still hold warm oil. It won't make your car faster.

Difference between a shit sump and a well built item is whether your internals decide to leave the engine and take a breath of fresh air on track...

Of course. And you would hope that a more expensive sump will be more reliable. But I haven't heard anyone say a Japspeed sump has failed in use (suggesting they are reliable enough), and there appears, again from this thread alone, to be as many quality concerns about Japspeed sumps as there are Greddy and Tomei (suggesting that they are not significantly more reliable). So what do you gain from spending 300% more money?

If I had an unlimited budget then naturally I would fit the best that money can buy regardless of whether the benefits were small. But then I wouldn't be modifying a 200SX in the first place.

Anyway, it seems the OP has made his choice.

[Slamz]

I've just bought a Japspeed sump actually, and although it appears to be not the cleanest inside, it looks fine workmanship-wise. So any idea how to clean out the inside to ensure it is spotless?

[daveyboydave]

I've just bought a Japspeed sump actually, and although it appears to be not the cleanest inside, it looks fine workmanship-wise. So any idea how to clean out the inside to ensure it is spotless?

I just used scotchbright and white spirit, then blasted it out under the kitchen tap and left it to air dry. Seemed to do the job.

[Slamz]

Ah sounds good. My plan involved the jet wash, so that may replace the kitchen tap lol. Going to stick some oil in it too and leave it for a while, make sure it's not porous! Annoyingly my old place of work did aluminium impreg for diesel pumps, could have chucked it in lol.