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Thread: Warning: Adrian flux cancellations

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    Guest DeanS15's Avatar
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    Warning: Adrian flux cancellations

    Just got off the phone to Adrian flux 7 weeks after starting a new policy with them for my type r....

    I think people on here need to be aware that if you pay in full for your policy and then have to cancel for any reason down the line, it will cost a fortune. My policy cost 630-00 7 weeks ago and they will only offer 254-86 back despite having insured multiple cars with them for 7 years, always paid in full, never claimed and still have another car insured with them....
    Honestly, after all the thousands they've had out of me over the years I cannot believe this is how they treat thier customers. I've recommended friends to them and sang thier praises in the past, but I can honestly say I think what they are doing is a disgrace....

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    Guest arry's Avatar
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    People should be aware anyway, because it's all in their terms of business that they supply you with at the outset of the policy, which you have 14 days cooling off period to read and exit yourself from with minimal financial impediment if you're not happy.

    Of course, you read all of that, didn't you


    Have you a breakdown of the cancellation in terms of fees versus premium? If the insurer you're with (ie the INSURER, not flux, who are a BROKER and therefore unable to alter or control the insurer's cancellation condition) charges on a short period cancellation basis (ie 3 months cover costs 6 months worth of premium, for example) then you could effectively take ICOB7 of the FSA handbook to them where it states that cancellation should not be able to be deemed punitive....

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    Sound steep but it must be in the insurers small print somewhere.

    I had to cancel a policy though flux after a couple of weeks earlier in the year and it cost me about £75 iirc. I think there is a bit of paper that details the cancellation periods/costs that comes though with the rest of your insurance docs

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    Guest arry's Avatar
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    The insurer's cancellation condition will be in the Policy Booklet, clearly setting out the cancellation schedule in plain English. It'll likely be a General Condition ie within the General Definitions section of the wording.

    The broker's cancellation fees are detailed in their Terms Of Business which is sent to you as part of the quotation and / or Policy Documentation pack. These will again be clearly laid out.

    You need to check the breakdown of the cancellation fees; the insurer may have cancelled on a short period basis, which you can challenge, and the broker may have retained the full amount of the commission earned from the policy and charged a 'reasonable' administration fee - both of which they have the power to waive / refund should you have a sound and valid argument for them to do so.

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    Guest DeanS15's Avatar
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    I understand that it will be in small print somewhere but this is just a quick way of letting forum members know that if they cancel thier policy, or are looking to take out a policy but not sure if they will run it to term, then they will be hit with a disproportionate charge on thier refund I've lost my money now, just wanted to save people from losing thiers.

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    Guest arry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeanS15 View Post
    I understand that it will be in small print somewhere but this is just a quick way of letting forum members know that if they cancel thier policy, or are looking to take out a policy but not sure if they will run it to term, then they will be hit with a disproportionate charge on thier refund I've lost my money now, just wanted to save people from losing thiers.
    But what you're posting isn't informing anyone of anything because you're trying to castrate Adrian Flux for something which may well be the insurer's ruling, not theirs. AF won't just use one insurer.

    Just about all 'specialist' car insurance brokers have a cancellation fee, and the right to keep commissions, so AF aren't really any different to the rest in a lot of ways - the only way to get around it is to go with a mainstream insurer, direct, but then that won't happen because modified cars don't tend to be insured with the likes of Aviva because it's outside underwriting strategy.

    You're paying money to Flux for them to negotiate deals with insurers using their market knowledge and insight to get competitive deals. The commission on the policy is 'earned' at inception pretty much, because acquisition costs are the majority of the expenses base and once you've got your papers generally speaking you don't tend to speak to Flux again until the renewal. The insurer, upon cancellation, claws back the commission paid to the broker - the broker, therefore, writes the commission clawback into their cancellation condition in order to retain it because they've already done the work.


    Anyway - as I've said, check out whether it's insurer or broker that's withholding the money and on both counts you could potentially challenge it and get a fair chunk of your money back.

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    Guest FireStorm's Avatar
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    lets be honest if you dont know all insurance companies try anything to rip you off then more fool you.

    (not referring to OP)

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    Not really, don't get me wrong I hate paying ridiculous insurance premiums and generally don't like dealing with them.
    I can't see how this is Adrian flux's fault, and I can't stand them due to messing me about as much as they did!

    They have a legal obligation to include all cancellation fees, admins costs etc, if you didn't read through them then I can't see how it's anyone elses fault but your own. Id expect to pay a cancellation fee if I cancelled my policy (maybe not quite as much as it cost you) but if you had it in black and white and agreed to it which you obviously did then I can't see an issue

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    Strawberry 14-A VIDAL BABBOON's Avatar
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    90% of the time it's nothing to do with Adrian Flux as they are just a broker.

    Its the company you are insured with that is the issue, modified policies are not easy ones to come by and as such are usually locked down tighter than a stock ford fiesta policy.

    However i feel that the termination cost for the OP is extortionate and im sure that something could have been done to reduce the loss to the op....

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    Guest arry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireStorm View Post
    lets be honest if you dont know all insurance companies try anything to rip you off then more fool you.

    (not referring to OP)
    It's that kind of attitude that really frustrates me. Insurance industry is heavily regulated, and as a consumer you're protected from way up on high by distance selling regs, given cooling off periods, having all wordings in plain English ie no jargon and no small print, you have a regulatory body and an independent ombudsman service both of which are paid for by the industry, generally anything that goes to FOS is upheld because it's either too unclear for retards to understand or it's the insurers terms being unfair because it requires the insured to have a couple of brain cells knocking about, and yet everything's always a RIP OFF.

    Had a claim, deducted an excess, what's this? AN EXCESS?! RIP OFF!!

    Cancel a policy, charge a well documented cancellation fee, RIP OFF!!

    Had a claim, paid £1500 for the car but want £3k to replace it 'cos you got a good deal', but insurers only want to pay £1500 minus the excess... RIP OFF

    As consumers you're giving away a shit load of money every year to insurance companies and yet only a small % of people actually even bother to take the time to READ their documents, let alone understand them. It's ridiculous.

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    Guest arry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIDAL BABBOON View Post
    However i feel that the termination cost for the OP is extortionate and im sure that something could have been done to reduce the loss to the op....
    There is, it's this:
    http://fsahandbook.info/Archive/2004.../Chapter_6.pdf

    "An insurer and insurance intermediary should take reasonable steps to ensure
    that double recovery of selling costs is avoided, particularly where:
    (a) there is also a distance non−investment mediation contract (see  ICOB 8); or
    (b) both commission and fees are recouped by an insurer and an insurance
    intermediary respectively."

    Plus probably loads of other bits.

    Basically, the insurer is cancelling on a short period rate, and flux have pocketed their commission as their terms allow them to. Sort out the short period rate from the insurer and get them to concede that it could be construed as a penalty, and you've got a more reasonable refund coming....

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    Without playing devils advocat who actually will read the many many pages of info that comes with the policy. I'm not saying its right that people don't bother but I would bet that insurance company's aren't daft enough to think that the more info etc they send out the less likely people are to read it.

    Threads like this remind me very much of the ppi fiasco with the banks tbh.
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    Guest Guy's Avatar
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    What has always puzzled me is if it's such a loss leading business, why do they (insurers) utterly shoot themselves in the foot, by selling/passing on accident details which then drive up PI claims? Seeing as that's the reason they keep rolling out for the continued increase in our policies, surely they're just adding fuel to the fire.

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    Guest FireStorm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arry View Post
    It's that kind of attitude that really frustrates me. Insurance industry is heavily regulated, and as a consumer you're protected from way up on high by distance selling regs, given cooling off periods, having all wordings in plain English ie no jargon and no small print, you have a regulatory body and an independent ombudsman service both of which are paid for by the industry, generally anything that goes to FOS is upheld because it's either too unclear for retards to understand or it's the insurers terms being unfair because it requires the insured to have a couple of brain cells knocking about, and yet everything's always a RIP OFF.

    Had a claim, deducted an excess, what's this? AN EXCESS?! RIP OFF!!

    Cancel a policy, charge a well documented cancellation fee, RIP OFF!!

    Had a claim, paid £1500 for the car but want £3k to replace it 'cos you got a good deal', but insurers only want to pay £1500 minus the excess... RIP OFF

    As consumers you're giving away a shit load of money every year to insurance companies and yet only a small % of people actually even bother to take the time to READ their documents, let alone understand them. It's ridiculous.
    Yeah sure. 12months later i still have a claim being dealt with by the ombudsman because my insurance company refuses to pay and i have to go through months of waiting just to get a final decision letter. I wouldnt mind if it was some big deal or some huge error or fib on my part but its not. Its a simple case of an insurance company trying not to pay a bean. Its cost me 6k that i dont have because my insurance company are being bloody minded.

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    I Love mike Brewer )o( Monkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy View Post
    What has always puzzled me is if it's such a loss leading business, why do they (insurers) utterly shoot themselves in the foot, by selling/passing on accident details which then drive up PI claims? Seeing as that's the reason they keep rolling out for the continued increase in our policies, surely they're just adding fuel to the fire.
    Short Term Gains (commission for every positive lead from who they sold details to) out weigh long term losses.

    i cant beleive that the insurance business is loss making on a whole. if you look at individual policies, then yes some will be massive losses, but others will outweigh that loss with massive proffit. at worst its a break even business.

    unless they are using the revenue to fund back office/non retail investments further up the chain, where the parent company could cover the losses by the massive gains on the fractual investment/lending. but thats an if.

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    Guest arry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chriscooke View Post
    Without playing devils advocat who actually will read the many many pages of info that comes with the policy. I'm not saying its right that people don't bother but I would bet that insurance company's aren't daft enough to think that the more info etc they send out the less likely people are to read it.

    Threads like this remind me very much of the ppi fiasco with the banks tbh.
    PPI wasn't anything like; it was straight mis-selling, the banks were using PPI as an additional income selling protection that didn't protect anything, whilst claiming it protected 'everything'. It was found to be in breach of the general standards of treating customers fairly, ie clear fair and not misleading. With motor insurance policies you don't even need to read the whole booklet, you get a 2-3 page Key Facts document that has to detail all of the major exclusions plus how to complain, cancellation etc. Here's an example of one:
    http://www.aviva.co.uk/library/pdfs/...NMDMG10248.pdf

    What's misleading about that then? Yet I bet everyone that's responded on this thread has complained like fcuk about their insurance 'company' (used loosely as nobody seems to understand the difference between an insurer, an intermediary and a broker) but has probably never seen or read one of these.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy View Post
    What has always puzzled me is if it's such a loss leading business, why do they (insurers) utterly shoot themselves in the foot, by selling/passing on accident details which then drive up PI claims? Seeing as that's the reason they keep rolling out for the continued increase in our policies, surely they're just adding fuel to the fire.
    It's really not that straight forward. There are some instances of actual insurers referring cases to solicitors etc, this is true and there's reasons for which are complicated, but I'd guess on a very high % of the referrals in the industry coming from intermediaries who are supplementing their income by earning referral fees. First person you call when you've had an accident? Your intermediary.

    Quote Originally Posted by FireStorm View Post
    Yeah sure. 12months later i still have a claim being dealt with by the ombudsman because my insurance company refuses to pay and i have to go through months of waiting just to get a final decision letter. I wouldnt mind if it was some big deal or some huge error or fib on my part but its not. Its a simple case of an insurance company trying not to pay a bean. Its cost me 6k that i dont have because my insurance company are being bloody minded.
    Feel free to explain; generally speaking insurers will only allow the case to go to FOS if there's a pretty high % chance of their decision being upheld, so they must be fairly convinced of their stance. What's the circumstances?

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    Guest arry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey View Post
    i cant beleive that the insurance business is loss making on a whole. if you look at individual policies, then yes some will be massive losses, but others will outweigh that loss with massive proffit. at worst its a break even business.

    unless they are using the revenue to fund back office/non retail investments further up the chain, where the parent company could cover the losses by the massive gains on the fractual investment/lending. but thats an if.
    You're thinking far too narrow. A general insurer doesn't just offer car insurance. Car insurance is a big part of any general insurers' business but it's not the be all and end all, there's home insurance, travel, and commercial too. Losses in one sector are often supported by profit in others. For example, motor has shown signs of returning to a small profit over the past year, whilst household and commercial are taking a battering because of the recessionary impact on the book. Motor, however, is already starting to see some rate depression because some companies are diving back in 'while the going's good'. It won't be good for long at this rate.

    Break even business now yes, 5 years ago it was in a hell of a state - underwriting results were appalling but the strong financial market positions meant overall business profit could be made. Nowadays those gains don't exist and underwriting performance has to stack up.

    To give you an idea of claims costs nowadays, a recent but not particularly well publicised car vs motorcycle accident has an insurer reserve in the region of £4m, and £1m+ claims are becoming far, far more frequent overall. £580 average policy premium nowadays IIRC? Takes a lot of those claim free to take care of that one.

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    aka Droolingorc Ghazoobe's Avatar
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    At the end of the day, insurance costs a hell of a lot, I don't care what you say Arry, the big chunk of money going out of my bank account each month say more to me than all your explanations about it

    I have never, ever, made a claim on insurance and have a clean licence and full NCB etc, but it still costs me ****ing loads.
    bovvered?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghazoobe View Post
    I have never, ever, made a claim on insurance and have a clean licence and full NCB etc, but it still costs me ****ing loads.
    Because one day you could still have an accident and write off £100k of cars. No matter how good your record is accidents happen and the more powerful the car you have the more chance there is having it happen. If you dont like paying shitloads to your insurance company go buy a 1.2 corsa. If you want a nice car then unfortunatly you have to pay for it just like if you have a nice house you pay more council tax etc etc.

    and its not 'small print' there is always a section in the pack you get clearly stating the cancelation charges along with any charges payable if you make any changes.

    no one likes paying for insurance as it seems a 'waste of money' but thats normally coming from people who have never used it
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    aka Droolingorc Ghazoobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    Because one day you could still have an accident and write off £100k of cars. No matter how good your record is accidents happen and the more powerful the car you have the more chance there is having it happen. If you dont like paying shitloads to your insurance company go buy a 1.2 corsa. If you want a nice car then unfortunatly you have to pay for it just like if you have a nice house you pay more council tax etc etc.
    even with a shitty little car my insurance is still loads
    bovvered?

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