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Thread: CA18DET Dry Sump System - Completed !

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    CA18DET Dry Sump System - Completed !

    Since finishing my Rush about 5 years ago the car has always suffered from oil surge so I couldn’t ever really give it full beans. Amongst other mods (like the custom plenum) I shortened the oil pan so the engine would fit below the bonnet line without any bulges or scoops. The shortened pan has meant the sump part of it was so shallow that the oil easily ran out of it and to the back meaning little or no (!) oil pressure, there was little space to fit a baffle set-up and I actually wanted the challenge of building a dry sump set-up.

    There is little or no useful information that tells you how to build a dry sump system from scratch so after a lot of research a few emails to various companies gleaning information from here and there and a couple of wise words from skyshack on here, a lot of guesswork, a lot of head scratching, a million mugs of tea, lots of adjustments and mind changes I have finally managed to cobble something together that satisfies my needs.

    I’ve been working on this in the background and between other projects (eg the daft S15.3 project) for an embarrassingly long time now…but finally it is done and the CA18 in my Rush is running with a dry sump set-up

    All fittings are Earls or AN style with braided hose. The system takes about ~9 litres of oil. I’m running a Weaver brothers 3 stage pump through -12 scavenge lines with -10 feed line. The pump is run by a gilmer style belt, via custom modified crank pulley at about half engine speed. It is mounted with a custom bracket using the air-con compressor mount holes on the block. I run the scavenge to tank line through a 16 row cooler and the feed line goes via a remote filter head and then straight into the block where the OEM oil cooler/filter assembly normally sits, the block has been modified slightly to take the fitting. The tank has tangential return and has been heavily modified to fit in the tiny amount of space that I had available with tabs and brackets welded on for mounting. It is baffled and can be split for cleaning.

    It's cost me more than I anticipated but I now hope to have eliminated the surge !

    Will do full write-up when I get the motivation and the time…but here's some pics at various stages of the build and install, when the intercooler is fitted and the radiator and various guide plates I have you can hardly see any of the good stuff I've managed to allow just enough space to get access to the top of the tank to check the oil level.













    Last edited by Jeffers_S13; 04-05-2011 at 13:51.

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    Holy smokes!! top job!

    Now where's the info? for the rest of us to copy...

    I cant remember when i last saw a post from you, and then you pop up with this beauty!

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    I have been thinking about a dry sump setup too for some time but in the end, i could not be bothered with it. Congratulations, it is not something simple to do !

    My main problem was how to get the oil return line from the turbo to stay at a correct pressure. I see you kept it connected to the sump ... The scavenging pump is enough to get all the oil out before it reaches the level of that line ?

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    Nice job mate

    A write-up would be incredibly valuable technical contribution for anyone planning/considering a dry sump conversion.

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    Guest bill_s13's Avatar
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    Very impressive , a big step forward for CA's! Looking forward to the full write-up.

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    Yeah should be no problem, the oil pan would have to have about something like 2 litres of oil in it before the turbo drain got covered. I'm actually hoping it might pull some vacuum i.e. it should be more or less empty most of the time i.e. 'dry'. Plus I have 2 scavenge lines and only 1 feed line so that in itself ought to mean that the pan never fills up.

    I've only had it idling so far in the yard for about 20mins blipping the throttle and holding at sustained revs getting the oil pressure set-up for cold and hot running. It's early days at the mo and I want to be totally sure there is nothing amiss before I risk a drive in it. All good so far though !

    Edit : this in answer to croustibat !

    Thanks for good comments
    Last edited by Jeffers_S13; 14-04-2011 at 08:23.

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    Guest CNHSS1's Avatar
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    good work fella, impressive

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    Guest GmasterT's Avatar
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    Bad ass

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    Excellent news

    How much do you think it's cost to make (time and money, tools etc)... and could more be made, batch of 10 for scale of economy purposes?

    Good luck with the testing, hope it all works successfully

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    Isn't the turbo oil supposed to "drain" out rather than be sucked out? I think that's what Crousitbat was asking.
    Do the bearings get dry if the oil is sucked out?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris B View Post
    Isn't the turbo oil supposed to "drain" out rather than be sucked out? I think that's what Crousitbat was asking.
    Do the bearings get dry if the oil is sucked out?
    It wont pull the oil out, any suction caused by the scavenging will suck through the breathers as its easier path. Put two straws in your mouth, put one in a glass of water and put one outside the glass of water, suck gently (i.e. on both simultaneously) you wont get any water, just air.

    Any suction caused on the turbo drain is gonna suck more oil through from the feed side (?) I don't believe it wil cause the turbo to run dry, I'll soon find out !

    There are a number of dry sump kits on the market for other similar engines, i.e. 4 pots with gravity drain turbo that dont make any provision for not applying any potential for vacuum on the drain.

    Cost wise - it has cost a lot. Savings might be made of you bought lesser quality fittings or went for push fit/jublees and simple unbraided hose and perhaps if a group got together and bought say 10 pumps and had 10 sumps made at the same time and all the other bits to drive the pump.

    It has taken me a LOT of time and effort to get it to this stage, I had all the same questions you guys probably have and have done my best to come up with solutions, as none of the suppliers of kits for other engines are very forthcoming with help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris B View Post
    Excellent news

    How much do you think it's cost to make (time and money, tools etc)... and could more be made, batch of 10 for scale of economy purposes?

    Good luck with the testing, hope it all works successfully
    forget it... there is no need to go dry sump on a CA, unless you want to fit it in an engine that does not allow the oil pan to fit. Which was the case here.

    The cost is at least 3 times the cost of a new accusump, which will solve every oiling issue a new oil pump would not sort. The oiling system on the CA is good, the sump has a good design too. The breathers are a pain, but otherwise it is a good design.

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    Guest CNHSS1's Avatar
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    nah, ca sump design is flawed. Accusmup does go a long way to helping (as does keeping breathers clean etc) but dry sump is the best way--end of.

    if you are in a pretty stock car or a hot one on road tyres, then dry sumps probably overkill, but Jeffers Dax should corner at substantially higher G than a 1200kg datsun on remoulds

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    hi there am doing same thing on my ca who made the pulley for u got pace pump to go on

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    I designed it all then had a machine shop make it from drawings.

    Modified OEM crank pulley, so retaining the harmonic damper. Centre bored to mate with mandrel and ensure full concentricity with dowel location.



    Mandrel with keyway for pump drive pulley and dowel pin to locate in crank pulley.



    Crank stud with rolled threads to replace the OEM bolt.



    All fitted





    How far have you got so far ?

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    - good work chap, i think the only thing left to explain the ins/outs is the modifications to the original oil pump that have been done.

    that little mandrel could be turned up by competent person on a lathe with the keyway cut by a milling machine, really good way of doing it rather than overly modifying the crank pulley.
    white '94 s13 200sx scrapped - mapped to 1.45bar. OS giken box, garrett GT2876R, 950cc injectors, ORC twin plate, nistune. 349bhp/325lbft @ 1.3bar CA18DET
    white '96 s13 180sx - type g with more kouki bits - RB25DET, GTR steel twin turbo conversion, RB26 crank & rods. 2.6L VVT twin turbo, SR20 OSG box, OSG STR twin plate clutch, Z32 ECU w/ nistune.

    current status: 180 a bit broken but to be repaired.

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    Guest mc lost's Avatar
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    Looks great, what a work!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CNHSS1 View Post
    nah, ca sump design is flawed. Accusmup does go a long way to helping (as does keeping breathers clean etc) but dry sump is the best way--end of.

    if you are in a pretty stock car or a hot one on road tyres, then dry sumps probably overkill, but Jeffers Dax should corner at substantially higher G than a 1200kg datsun on remoulds
    Yes, i wanted to say it is a correct design when installed in a car, no in a go-kart A dax rush is a complete different story

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanjuggler View Post
    - good work chap, i think the only thing left to explain the ins/outs is the modifications to the original oil pump that have been done.
    I'd assume it's been gutted, the outlet to crankcase plugged and the body is now just a seal carrier.

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    Yep, as skyshack says original oil pump was aqua blasted (for personal OCD preference...) gutted and oil feed plugged, it now just seals the front of the engine. Dipstick tube was also plugged. Getting a blank front plate CNC'd like the ones supplied by Pace or Titan for their kits for engines like the 4G63 would be a step forwards but waaaaay beyond my budget. Start going down that route and you start to think about integral sump/pump designs and nice retained silicone rubber bead for sealing etc...maybe on an SR20 kit

    I'm inerested to see if any back street DIY dry sump kits start appearing now for the CA or the SR as they are fundmentally the same, in fact most 4 pots are similar, just that nobody has gone as far as me as suggesting how it might be done. There is more than enough detail in this thread such that, with a little know how and an appreciation of how an engine pumps oil, anyone can produce a dry sump set-up of similar quality.

    If any of the longer term members from here that have gone one-step beyond with the CA want more detailed pics, CAD drawings and lists of suppliers for various parts then I'm happy to PM or email but I dont want the world and his dog knowing specifically what I've done and taking credit for it in the form of half-baked kits or pestering various machine shops with daft questions. Like I said I found it a challenge just finding what sort of drive belt I needed never mind where to get pulleys and stuff from to suit and its taken a lot of trial and error on bits to get where I am with it. I have recorded everything I have done to an anal degree with photos mainly so I don't forget how I've done stuff

    Also, just to caveat what I've posted, I'm not saying I've thought of everything but this is about as budget and as simple as a dry-sump set-up gets without spending daft money on getting stuff cast or CNC'd. If you try and copy or reproduce something based on how I have done it and you muller your engine, it's not my fault I havent even drive the car with it on yet. I had it running again yesterday sorting a few other things, up to high rpm and again no problems, but I am by no means 100% happy with it yet. So far so good though

    As croustibat says, it isn't something that most really need, I suspect some people reading this thread dont actually know what it does, but still want one... I did it because I sort of needed to and because I wanted to as I love stuff like this, possibly an accusump might have been suitable or a very modified oil pan with a fancy baffle set-up might have worked.

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