Hi all !
Was bantering with Matt_J last night about brakes and braking ability. Matt was of the mind that uprated / aftermarket brake pads will help a car stop better / quicker, whereas my opinion is that if your standard brake setup is good enough to lock the wheels / trigger ABS, you already have maximum possible braking and the only advantage you get from new pads/discs is longevity and fade resistance.
Who is right!
Ahh FFS
I suggest you look in the nurburgring section to find out
And Ben if you post on this thread I will ban you
Originally Posted by silverzx
Hi Mark
Don't forget the point of this question was about braking ability being boosted by changing brake components, the fade stuff was a counter to it (whether or not that applies is mostly irrelevant)
Last edited by andyf; 22-11-2010 at 10:50.
I think it will depend which speed you are braking from
If you brake from flat out in 5th, larger brakes I would suspect will stop you faster, as maximum braking force is not locking the wheels, once they're locked they're exerting less stopping force, you want to apply pressure enough to not quite reach breaking traction / grip.
Last edited by Evilchap; 22-11-2010 at 10:57.
Wow that Nurburgring thread was sure fun, good to see SXOC never changes
But yeah my own view was that deceleration is all about the limit of the tyre so if you can lock the wheels braking, then you're at the limit of the tyres friction and different pads or discs won't help this.
There is more braking grip to be gained by a better tyre compound than there is hoofing money on discs/pads/calipers.
The actual brakes really only factor how much heat you get into the pad/disc. Too much heat and the pad will fade and the disc will probably start distorting. Smaller components will gain heat faster.
Calipers with more/bigger pistons will provide a higher clamping force on the pad to enable it to work better but if using a crap compound the pad will still overheat.
You theoretically gain more braking torque using a larger disc, but the massive increase in unsprung weight you'll gain unless using ally bells and rotors or carbon ceramic discs will negate any time reduction you get on track through improved braking.
Besides, you spend such a small amount of time on the brakes compared to accelerating when driving properly that looking for time by improving the brakes is pretty pointless - your setup need only be fade resistant for however long you plan on driving flat out for.
Last edited by zeppelin101; 22-11-2010 at 11:01.
I may be able to get the same tyres and wheels on both my S15 when it works and my S14a that's standard...
I may borrow a volunteer and put this to the test next year, be interesting to see how much difference it makes.
I do know which would do it more times consecutively from speed
Doesn't sound like a particularly useful test when your 15 has a silly engine in it and all manner of mods done to it while the 14 is completely standard
The S15 will be heavier with the bigger engine, yes, but in terms of braking it shouldn't make many odds?
Brake from the same speed, at the same time, and see what happens. I can even weight them both and ballast them to be the same weight.
I think a more constructive test would be to put the 14 brakes on the 15 or vice versa with different tyres and see what happens. If everything else is the same apart from the brakes you won't have to fudge anything.
Wrong wrong wrong.
You can make LOADS of time up on the brakes, look when 99% of overtaking in racing happens
Major factor for braking force (excluding "fade") is tyres, you need grip to be able to brake hard. Decent stock brakes will be able to lock up most average road tyres.
However, go to decent tyres and brakes the difference is mind blowing.
Phils M3 on stoptechs and 265 RSR's wants to pull your eyes out when you stomp on the brakes
I think using two different cars is a complete waste of effort to test different brakes.
Suspension, weight, weight distribution, unsprung weight, tyres, rest of the braking components ...... they all have an effect on the results, leaving you with one conclusion being, one car does indeed stop better than the other.
You got to use the same car with the same components and just change the brakes to get any form of realistic result.
Once your abs has kicked in though, the pistons are firing on and off all the time the wheels are locking. .... If you had better brakes, then surely the wheel would be locking quicker and the car retarding quicker ? ...... OR, becuase the car is starting to skid sooner, the abs takes longer to slow the car down, beucase the brakes are locking the wheels to eagerly ??
Which parts are you thinking will make the difference exactly?
It wont be that scientific, I suspect big brake haters and fans both will easily pick holes in any test
That has nothing to do with braking force, and everything to do with the driver and when they pick their braking pointWrong wrong wrong.
You can make LOADS of time up on the brakes, look when 99% of overtaking in racing happensOvertaking is a function of driver commitment, speed and mechanical wear. The guy you're racing against won't be able to keep up with you on the brakes or out of the corner if his tyres are shot and yours are still fresh! Watching Kobayashi in F1 is a prime example of driver commitment under braking. Every other driver will pick a braking point which is relatively conservative for the race yet he always manages to pull out a few extra metres when he needs to and still pulls the car up. They're all using very similar brakes, the only difference is how committed he is to picking his braking point and selecting his line into the corner.
Have a read of Carroll Smith's Drive-to-Win. It's an old book, but everything in it is still quite relevant, particularly with regard to braking.
Comparatively, the amount of time to be found on the brakes is minimal compared to picking the right line in a corner and getting on the throttle as soon as you can.
There will be nothing to pick holes in if all you change are the brakesWhich parts are you thinking will make the difference exactly?
It wont be that scientific, I suspect big brake haters and fans both will easily pick holes in any test
You can control every variable in such a test, so why not do so to make it fair?
Ideally, you would check with a couple of different pad compounds for each caliper type, and would use the same size discs for both or use a selection of disc sizes (all by the same manufacturer) and test against a couple of different tyre compounds for each case. That would be about as conclusive as you could get, but time consuming and horribly expensive
Last edited by zeppelin101; 22-11-2010 at 11:37.
Yes but surely with better brakes you can brake harder and later
Master brake cylinders, brake lines, abs controllers ... then there is the geometry set up of the wheels also the spring rate will make a big difference and having a car starting to compress when you brake at 100mph makes a stonking difference to loading the tyres up. ... I wopuld end IMO ... but its not actually my opinion, its other peoples, I just read about it or got it from watching TV motorsport
Good brakes can win a race!!
All down to replacing the braking point further towards the corners. Helps a lot.
Only thing i want to rely on on the track is my brakes. Nothing more really.
Is that why yours were so shit at Anglesey
On top ic of the original post
Yup, you can only brake as hard as your tyres can grip. If all 4 tyres are at the limit of traction then the only way you can stop more quickly is with different tyres, or possibly lower tyre pressures. If, hypothetically, you could lock the tyres at any speed (all the way until the car was stopped, not just when you first hit them, so if you could lock up at 100, you must also be able to lock them in the same application at 30), then the only advantage that uprated brakes (be they disks/pads etc) could be perceived to give would be consistency in that ability and/or feel.
Last edited by Si; 22-11-2010 at 11:51.
That's not fair. I've never seen a set of brakes lock a wheel so quickly as Tom's did at Anglesey.Is that why yours were so shit at Anglesey
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