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Thread: Nurburgring Brake Discussion

  1. #61
    Self confessed player of the pink oboe docwra's Avatar
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    Ben, seriously, you arent going to win this by taking it off at a tangent.

    The simple fact is, ABS or no ABS, you arent going to have as much fun at the Ring on a standard braking setup as an upgraded one. Bonnet vents, tubular manifolds and colder pads aside, thats where this discussion started and theres no denying it - 200SX brakes just arent up to maximum attack trackdays.

    The standard brakes on both my S13's, both my S12's and the S14 I had were as bad as anything Ive owned.
    Quote Originally Posted by scimmy ben
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by docwra View Post
    Ben, seriously, you arent going to win this by taking it off at a tangent.

    The simple fact is, ABS or no ABS, you arent going to have as much fun at the Ring on a standard braking setup as an upgraded one. Bonnet vents, tubular manifolds and colder pads aside, thats where this discussion started and theres no denying it - 200SX brakes just arent up to maximum attack trackdays.

    The standard brakes on both my S13's, both my S12's and the S14 I had were as bad as anything Ive owned.
    what tangent?! im just answering what others have said

    all other shite posted aside you dont NEED to upgrade everything on these cars to enjoy them and its quite possible to enjoy a trip to the ring and absolutely love it on std brakes and most other things for that matter. .

    as proven at the last trip which spawned this one were most people were on near std setups

    my second car going next year is only on 14 calipers, plain std size discs and will be on a mild pad. ill be driving it and so will my mrs. and i bet its probably more of a hoot in that than the track spec 13 ive ploughed 12k into

    isnt it hilarious how the biggest voice for everything needing upgrading is the guy selling the bits
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    Quote Originally Posted by S14 Stu View Post
    I'm not a big ford fan but the RS500 is a legend, you cannot take away from it its Icon status and to suggest that its a chavvy car is like saying Kirsten Scott Thomas is a council estate slapper

  3. #63
    Self confessed player of the pink oboe docwra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fake Ben Taylor View Post
    isnt it hilarious how the biggest voice for everything needing upgrading is the guy selling the bits
    No, its the guy talking sense. If you really believe that standard S14 brakes are up to stopping your V8 and wont fade on track then you are deluded, as they are rubbish in a standard car.

    Actually, have you ever driven anything with good brakes? Do you have anything to compare to?
    Quote Originally Posted by scimmy ben
    I get the feeling that this would only work if we could pursuade Ernest Borgnine to drive the Isle of Wight to Portsmouth hovercraft.
    Quote Originally Posted by sprout
    After I shave my balls swarfega helps soothe, but means the hair grows back quite quickly, so give it a go

  4. #64
    S13 + 2bar = 475@wheels bren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fake Ben Taylor View Post
    so i take it were not leaving it?

    scottie i bet you had abs though, possibly with a tubular manifold? the abs unit sits right next to the hottest part of the engine bay, possibly why the fluid got a bit warm? the only time ive experienced boiled fluid was on the motorway when my timing was wrong and the neat from the turbo cooked the abs unit. it promptly came out and problem solved.


    bren you yourself have said that your big brake kits dont generate much heat as is clearly evident in the lifspan of the discs and pads and at one point said that you had to go to a colder pad.

    so where did all this heat come from?

    changing to a fluid which can handle higher temps doesnt mean youve solved the problem just found a way round it.

    bren youve also said in the past that you were struggling with under bonnet temps on the skyline and thats why you cut the hole in the bonnet and made the headlight vents to get cool air onto the filter.

    so is it not possible that all this underbonnet temp is the problem?
    We were at Elvington last Sat. Early afternoon I noticed that the wheel centre cap was on the floor by the wheel. I went to refit it but it was so distorted by the heat generated by the brakes that it fell clean out again. The drivers side one had also gone awol.

    Just because you go big on brakes doesnt mean they dont get hot. If anything that highlights just how much braking performance is available if you step up compared to the stock set up. If Im getting the wheels so hot though brake heat that the wheel centre caps are distorting and falling out then just how much later do you think Im braking compared to a standard set up?

    The last issue with fluid was a couple of months ago. The Skyline has a big hole in its bonnet, the exhaust system is ceramic coated from tip to tail including manifolds and the brake lines are run away from any heat source.

    The fluid we ran was fresh.

    To be fair to you, your points do have some validity. Our V8 S14 suffered from exactly what youre trying to pin boiling fluid on last year. We diagnosed the cause of the issue, lagged the master cylinder and lines where they passed the manifolds and solved the problem.

    However that wasnt the cause of the Skylines issues so no matter how you keep trying to address the issue youll not get round the fact that the car boiled its fluid because the fluid wasnt up to spec.

  5. #65
    S13 + 2bar = 475@wheels bren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fake Ben Taylor View Post
    isnt it hilarious how the biggest voice for everything needing upgrading is the guy selling the bits
    Or the guy with the most experience of the widest range of brake packages for the S Body on the SXOC?

    The guy whos probably done more track days than just about anyone else on the SXOC and more brake specific track testing than anyone else on the SXOC?

    The guy who just last week went out and did two track days dedicated to testing new brake products?

    But what do I know, Im just out to bend you all over and take your cash. Any contribution I make to technical discussions can be boiled down to me doing nothing but trying to screw people for every penny.

    Apparently.

    I repeat:

    Quote Originally Posted by bren View Post
    Yet another rediculous SXOC pointless argument founded on nothing but bickering for the sake of bickering with not enough people listening to the points being made.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by docwra View Post
    No, its the guy talking sense. If you really believe that standard S14 brakes are up to stopping your V8 and wont fade on track then you are deluded, as they are rubbish in a standard car.

    Actually, have you ever driven anything with good brakes? Do you have anything to compare to?
    pretty sure i said second car....oh wait i did look:

    my second car going next year is only on 14 calipers, plain std size discs and will be on a mild pad. ill be driving it and so will my mrs. and i bet its probably more of a hoot in that than the track spec 13 ive ploughed 12k into
    so where did the v8 thing come from?

    or is it yet another classic case of people not reading whats put down but just skim reading for the bits they want?
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    Quote Originally Posted by S14 Stu View Post
    I'm not a big ford fan but the RS500 is a legend, you cannot take away from it its Icon status and to suggest that its a chavvy car is like saying Kirsten Scott Thomas is a council estate slapper

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    Quote Originally Posted by bren View Post
    We were at Elvington last Sat. Early afternoon I noticed that the wheel centre cap was on the floor by the wheel. I went to refit it but it was so distorted by the heat generated by the brakes that it fell clean out again. The drivers side one had also gone awol.

    thats rotas for you

    Just because you go big on brakes doesnt mean they dont get hot. If anything that highlights just how much braking performance is available if you step up compared to the stock set up. If Im getting the wheels so hot though brake heat that the wheel centre caps are distorting and falling out then just how much later do you think Im braking compared to a standard set up?
    have you tried measuring the temperature your brakes are getting to? a kettle is too hot to touch and would warp a centre cap yet where brakes are concerned that isnt very hot not just chatting shit but genuinely curious to see some comparative data
    The last issue with fluid was a couple of months ago. The Skyline has a big hole in its bonnet, the exhaust system is ceramic coated from tip to tail including manifolds and the brake lines are run away from any heat source.

    The fluid we ran was fresh.

    To be fair to you, your points do have some validity. Our V8 S14 suffered from exactly what youre trying to pin boiling fluid on last year. We diagnosed the cause of the issue, lagged the master cylinder and lines where they passed the manifolds and solved the problem.
    thanks for this tbh
    However that wasnt the cause of the Skylines issues so no matter how you keep trying to address the issue youll not get round the fact that the car boiled its fluid because the fluid wasnt up to spec.

    im still not sold
    .
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    Quote Originally Posted by S14 Stu View Post
    I'm not a big ford fan but the RS500 is a legend, you cannot take away from it its Icon status and to suggest that its a chavvy car is like saying Kirsten Scott Thomas is a council estate slapper

  8. #68
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    Fluid boiling is definitely a concern, more-so with uprated pads and standard disk sizes / fluids. Done it twice with Ferrodo DS2500 and standard disks - although my pads were fine, the heat they were generating obviously exceeded the heat capacity of my otherwise standard braking system and so the fluid boiled. There is no warning - one minute the brakes are perfectly fine, the next, zero retardation and brown pants.

    If your pads are capable of withstanding high temps and therefore generate too much heat that overwhelms the capacity of your disk / cooling capacity and thus fluid, then you'll likely see it with prolonged heavy braking. In my experience it's best to also upgrade at the very least the fluid if you are using extreme pads with standard disks and haven't improved the cooling via ducting etc.

  9. #69
    S13 + 2bar = 475@wheels bren's Avatar
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    In the last couple of weeks Ive done two trackdays myself testing some new formula pads for Andy Freeman, MD of EBC.



    Last Sunday I was down in Norfolk with this years 2010 championship winning team with their rally car to see how they fair with their current brake set up and arrange to get them out on KSports before the next round to see what difference they make.



    Ive just had James Grint on the phone to chat about his 304mm KSport brake kit that hes running on his 2010 championship winning rally Evo to see how he faired with them.



    On Wenesday I was speaking to Paul at Zen Performance about the specifications of the KSport brake system theyre going to run on this car in the 2011 Time Attack Pro Class:



    The point is that we are pretty active with the whole brake thing here. Maybe people dont know what we do. You now have a slightly better idea. You take what you want from the info I give. In terms of sales of brakes the SXOC generates next to nothing, I have little commercial interest in what you run.
    Last edited by bren; 12-11-2010 at 15:07.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bren View Post
    Or the guy with the most experience of the widest range of brake packages for the S Body on the SXOC?

    The guy whos probably done more track days than just about anyone else on the SXOC and more brake specific track testing than anyone else on the SXOC?

    The guy who just last week went out and did two track days dedicated to testing new brake products?

    But what do I know, Im just out to bend you all over and take your cash. Any contribution I make to technical discussions can be boiled down to me doing nothing but trying to screw people for every penny.

    Apparently.

    I repeat:
    dude lets be totally honest. youre a businessman trying to make money.

    youve even said you havent played about with or tested some things (like brake ducts) because they arent marketable products so you arent interested.

    that speaks volumes imo youre only testing things towards a goal.....making money, not towards finding the best solutions/set ups. as they arent all marketable

    not having a go or trying to be insulting, to me its obvious and id be the same in your position. anyone would.

    but what it does do is make me take your advice with a pinch of salt
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    Quote Originally Posted by S14 Stu View Post
    I'm not a big ford fan but the RS500 is a legend, you cannot take away from it its Icon status and to suggest that its a chavvy car is like saying Kirsten Scott Thomas is a council estate slapper

  11. #71
    S13 + 2bar = 475@wheels bren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fake Ben Taylor View Post
    that speaks volumes imo
    What, about me being completely open and honest? If I was out to screw people then dont you think Id lie about such things? "Yeah, we have done loads of brake duct testing, doesnt work, waste of time and effort" kind of thing?

    Thats me out.

    I wonder how many people appreciate youre antaganising people with experience of such areas to the point where they give up and **** off?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bren View Post
    What, about me being completely open and honest? If I was out to screw people then dont you think Id lie about such things? "Yeah, we have done loads of brake duct testing, doesnt work, waste of time and effort" kind of thing?

    Thats me out.

    I wonder how many people appreciate youre antaganising people with experience of such areas to the point where they give up and **** off?
    when did i say youre out to screw people?! or are you skim reading as well?

    if you read what i said i said not having a go or trying to be insulting. all i was saying is you bang on about how much testing you do but only of things that you can sell not what will actually make a working/efficient brake set up and that its kinda obvious and id do the same in your position - ie trying to make money.

    sheesh pick up your toys already
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    Quote Originally Posted by S14 Stu View Post
    I'm not a big ford fan but the RS500 is a legend, you cannot take away from it its Icon status and to suggest that its a chavvy car is like saying Kirsten Scott Thomas is a council estate slapper

  13. #73
    Head Mod Scottie's Avatar
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    I always got told that when you start to attack the person making the argument, instead of the argument itself, it means you know you can't defend the argument.

    EDIT : I mean can we keep this argument about the brakes and not get personal.
    Last edited by Scottie; 12-11-2010 at 15:41.
    2004 - on : 1999 S14a 398bhp 378lb/ft
    2010 - on : 2007 RX8 PZ
    1998 - 2004 : 1991 S13

  14. #74
    Head Mod Scottie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fake Ben Taylor View Post
    scottie i bet you had abs though, possibly with a tubular manifold? the abs unit sits right next to the hottest part of the engine bay, possibly why the fluid got a bit warm? the only time ive experienced boiled fluid was on the motorway when my timing was wrong and the neat from the turbo cooked the abs unit. it promptly came out and problem solved.
    No, my S13 was standard apart from air filter and exhaust.

    Only about 175bhp, and even with tarox discs and pads fluid still boiled
    2004 - on : 1999 S14a 398bhp 378lb/ft
    2010 - on : 2007 RX8 PZ
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    im sorry to get you away from your arguement

    being a first timer to the ring in '08 i went for handling and brakes over power (i went with 300bhp) and had the best time ever, being able to jump on the brakes whenever required, hearing the tires screech trying to slow down with the greatness of the brakes was really pleasing - no fade at all (i only done 1 lap at a time), made it much more enjoyable and saved me on one lap when i overcooked a corner.

    i went from R32 GTR to 350z calipers, standard nissan 324mm discs and DS2500's with racing dot 5.1(took a bit to heat up but once warm great) - best decision ever.


    its not that running stockbrakes is dangerous - just limits your boundaries majorly, i wouldnt even go to a normal trackday with stock brakes, they are barely good enough for stock power!

  16. #76
    South West Rep Evilchap's Avatar
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    What's with the bashing Bren because he sells something?

    I dont get it!

    Apex / Driftworks / Japspeed and many others test and develope their products themselves, in anger, on various tracks, often.

    They are the people who know about these things, they create products to suit the cars. Yes, they make money from this - that's not actually a bad thing - it's sort of the point of business.

    Unless however you're accusing him of lieing - and as yet from reading this it seems like you might be, you should listen to what's being said, especially as you are building and planning to run a car that is along the lines of what Bren already drives to work every day!

    Nowhere has there been KSports rammed down you neck here, just experience of various brake options have been voiced by experienced track drivers.

    Yes, a more talented driver will take less out of brakes, they'll brake later, for shorter periods, but much harder, and wont tend to scrub brakes in periods of uncertainty, so they'll get more cooling time, but that's not really the point here.

    Standard brakes are designed for a road car, with standard power. They do this fine. When you upgrade power, tyres and suspension, it stands to reason - and Evidence, that you'll need to upgrade the brakes too!

    Decent brakes transform a 200SX to drive. You get heaps more confidence, they almost bring a smile to your face every time you have to use them with any force.

    I challenge you to find a fast 200SX without decent brakes. I dont mean a stage 1/2 car, but one with real power. Virtually all of them have larger brakes, many significantly larger, and I know of very few who in any way regret getting them! I know people will large willwoods, large Brembos, Large KSports and even bigger discs on standard calipers, all can report significant improvements. This can only be a good thing, especially if you're going to play on one of the best tracks going, you want to be the weak link, not the car, so you can have as much fun as you dare - IMO.

    I should add this has all come from somebody who boiled 205 gti fluid repeatedly on the weekender in 2009 and has had various 200s with all sorts of standard brakes and brake kits.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottie View Post
    I always got told that when you start to attack the person making the argument, instead of the argument itself, it means you know you can't defend the argument.

    EDIT : I mean can we keep this argument about the brakes and not get personal.
    it got personal when it became 'what do you know i do all of this' both from docwra and bren - or is it allowed to be personal when it agrees with your views?

    all i was saying is that i take what bren advises with a pinch of salt as obviously hes going to advise what he sells. and hes said that he doesnt test things that may yield significant improvements if he cant market them.

    no bashing. just bare faced facts. using a lot of his own words. why does it get viewed as bashing?? as thats not how it was intented. ill take any traders views with a pinch of salt - they all sell the best solution available and yet theyre all selling something different but no other trader is in here bleating about who theyve spoken to, treying to sell too or how many trackdays theyve done.

    its not apex/bren bashing. i buy from them all the friggin time, recommend them to others and only last night was in the pub with the local car club advocating how much he tests stuff when asked for my opinion. when will people (you included bren) see that i am not out to bash apex. its just always bren in these arguments and sometimes we agree (the v8 thread where i actually got pms saying i was gay for siding with apex ) and often we disagree....here being a prime example.


    Quote Originally Posted by Scottie View Post
    No, my S13 was standard apart from air filter and exhaust.

    Only about 175bhp, and even with tarox discs and pads fluid still boiled
    furry muff ive honestly not boiled fluid on track or hard driving. as said above the only time was due to incorrect timing superheating the turbo and manifold and then the abs.

    and ive not yet ran anything bigger than 280mm discs, even on my old 360bhp s13. and though its not big or clever i drive like a tool not a granny, hell i used to go out and chase motorbikes round selby and sherburn milk bar for fun. and ive never thought shit ive got no brakes left.
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    Quote Originally Posted by S14 Stu View Post
    I'm not a big ford fan but the RS500 is a legend, you cannot take away from it its Icon status and to suggest that its a chavvy car is like saying Kirsten Scott Thomas is a council estate slapper

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fake Ben Taylor View Post
    ive not yet ran anything bigger than 280mm discs, even on my old 360bhp s13. and though its not big or clever i drive like a tool not a granny

    Then you're still not driving it hard enough, unless you literally mean that you really do drive like a tool!

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    Carters old M5 was fine for 20 laps of the ring, was running the standard 15 brakes he bought off ebay

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    Right what the hell is going on in here !

    It's like a dam cock waving competition !

    Everyone is working on their knowledge of track days and brakes.This usually means they have done a few track-days (I'm guessing on some cases this is complete balls but I'm not going into that on here).


    If i put stock brakes back on my car now and did a track-day I'm guessing it would end up with me lasting all of 1 possibly 2 laps before either stuffing it into a barrier or coming of track with completely shot brakes.

    BUT

    If you have not done a track-day before or have done one and not experienced any issues i fail to see why a trip to the Nurburgring is going to highlight an issue with the brakes !

    The comment of being on the ring at maximum attack made me laugh though
    Quote Originally Posted by sideways14a View Post
    Christ i would bang that harder than a barn door in a hurricane.

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