fitting GT2871 to near std engine?

[geogge]

If you can get 328bhp out of 95 ron dishwater on a typical s14 engine with standard stg2 mod's, reliably and replicable on other RR's then i will bare my arse in woolworths shop window.

I dont know anything about this stage business setup but his mod's are in this thread. Better get that arse waxed

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=286381

[SteA]

you seem unable to see the fundamental point that someone who knows what he is doing and whos business relies on tuning race/track cars which need to be spot on will undoubtedly have to have a very perfect RR otherwise his business is going to be taken away by other people who do have a more perfect RR.

theres no point arguing silly points about it with me, I feel that its the best RR I've ever used and will stand by that opinion and everyone I know who has used it also has that same opinion.
If you want to know more about it either call the guy who owns it (Steve) or just go there and see for yourself.

You havent figured out what the point is yet, never mind acusing others of missing it And dont worry, everyone misses the point on occasion, makes for good debate

And re what you said, no mate, it has to be reliable and fit for its purpose none of this has any bearing on whether it under reads COMPARED to a dynodynamics RR which a lot of the club use as a comparison.

[sideways14a]

I dont know anything about this stage business setup but his mod's are in this thread. Better get that arse waxed

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=286381

My arse is safe.
He has a new larger plenium, new larger throttle body and a completly different manifold on the exhaust side as well as a power FC.
Nothing like typical stg2 mods then

[Ghazoobe]

You havent figured out what the point is yet, never mind acusing others of missing it And dont worry, everyone misses the point on occasion, makes for good debate

And re what you said, no mate, it has to be reliable and fit for its purpose none of this has any bearing on whether it under reads COMPARED to a dynodynamics RR which a lot of the club use as a comparison.

as I said, go there and find out for yourselves instead of being picky and trying to argue about it on here

[Scottie]

you seem unable to see the fundamental point that someone who knows what he is doing and whos business relies on tuning race/track cars which need to be spot on will undoubtedly have to have a very perfect RR otherwise his business is going to be taken away by other people who do have a more perfect RR.

No, you are wrong on this point. If his RR was reading 5% more bhp than say standard Dyno Dynamics ones this would have no bearing on either 1.The tuning of the cars 2.Any business taken away from him - the opposite he is more likely to get extra business as his resutls appear better. There are some excellent tuners up North who have RR's that read sluightly high, yet they tuen cars well, get lots of business etc. RR's vary. Just because one reads higher than others doesn't mean what you say.

theres no point arguing silly points about it with me, I feel that its the best RR I've ever used and will stand by that opinion and everyone I know who has used it also has that same opinion.
If you want to know more about it either call the guy who owns it (Steve) or just go there and see for yourself.

I don't feel it's a silly point. It can be the best RR you use and you can still have that opinion, but it can still read a little high. Oen of the best RR's I use for years read a little higher than Dyno Dynamics ones. I knew thsi but was happy with the service and so went back. I could go to the one you say and be very impressed by it, but these are all irrelevant points.

Somebody please help me and try to explain it better if I'm not getting the point across clearly enough for Ghazoobe.

[Ghazoobe]

Somebody please help me and try to explain it better if I'm not getting the point across clearly enough for Ghazoobe.

I know your ****ing point but how the **** am I supposed to know what its like compared to a ****ing dyno dynamics one???
I've said what I know about it and my opinion of it. what the **** is wrong with that?

AS I have already said, if you really are that bothered about knowing, go and find out for yourself by either calling or going there.

[sideways14a]

God i love these bloody RR threads, they always end up like this...

RR's are innacurate, either run on say 3 or 4 and take an average or whip the old motor out and do it on a engine dyno to make sure with a standard air temp, air pressure, standardised fuel ect.

[SteA]

as I said, go there and find out for yourselves instead of being picky and trying to argue about it on here

Chill As far as I know, out of several hundred 200sx RR runs, no one has ever replicated those figures on a dynodynamic RR, people have on other RR's then failed to replicate it on a dynodynamics. No one is saying the bloke doesnt know what he is doing or that his RR isnt amazingly reliable, what they are questioning is whether it can be replicated on a DD rollers, which a huge amount of evidence suggests it cant. Thats the point, no need to get angry

[geogge]

My arse is safe.
He has a new larger plenium, new larger throttle body and a completly different manifold on the exhaust side as well as a power FC.
Nothing like typical stg2 mods then

Coolio, but my point is you can get more out of a T28r then 310bhp as many people believe on here and if you say you got more the RR is rubbish or your blowing your arse off.

With JP's mods he got 328bhp and 343bhp with E85 using a T28r

[Ghazoobe]

Chill As far as I know, out of several hundred 200sx RR runs, no one has ever replicated those figures on a dynodynamic RR, people have on other RR's then failed to replicate it on a dynodynamics. No one is saying the bloke doesnt know what he is doing or that his RR isnt amazingly reliable, what they are questioning is whether it can be replicated on a DD rollers, which a huge amount of evidence suggests it cant. Thats the point, no need to get angry

is there a dyno dynamics one in essex? will try and persuade my mate to go there and have it RR

if (as I said earlier I might of got the turbo wrong) it is a GT28r and not a GT28rs

[sideways14a]

Coolio, but my point is you can get more out of a T28r then 310bhp as many people believe on here and if you say you got more the RR is rubbish or your blowing your arse off.

With JP's mods he got 328bhp and 343bhp with E85 using a T28r

And the point is that a t28's flow is not just related to the turbo but the environment its on, thats why i said it will not flow that power on typical stg2 mods.
I am assuming someone that is pushing the t28 is going to be using stg2 mods as the turbo coughs out at that point, hence why we buy bigger ones.
I have no doubt an sx t28 could flow more on an engine with a less restrictive inlet, exhaust and very agressive mapping. Its not normal though, not buy our modifications that are common on here.
I dont know why anyone would build a setup anyway that had all these pieces and then keep the stock t28 (unless it was a short term thing to tinde them over till a good sized unit could be found).

But in our context the standard s14 t28 will struggle to produce much more than 300hp, it may produce 310 or so with tight ignition, it may produce more with rocket fuel and even more ignition jiggery pockery, it may even squeeze out 320 or 330 with fancy stuff being added elsewhere, hell it may run 350 with a stroker kit...But none of that is typical of our stg2 mods, none of that will be very reliable either, the life span of which can be measured in days??

Hell you could squirt Nitros down the intake and get 350 on the stock t28, but thats cos it carries its own oxygen.

[geogge]

I dont know why anyone would build a setup anyway that had all these pieces and then keep the stock t28 (unless it was a short term thing to tinde them over till a good sized unit could be found).

I dont know the reasons for him using T28r with his setup. Maybe because he's getting a nice power figure without exposing to much torque on the gearbox that wont cope with much more anyway

My reasons would be with a bigger turbo you would have to use more pressure. With more pressure you should have forged pistons, makes since to get rods too, a clutch rated for alot of torque and a different gearbox to be safe so theres alot more expense other then to slap on bigger turbo to do the job right.

[johnnyhillen]

to be honest does it make much difference what rr you use appart from braging rights casue as long as you use the same rr you will know if your car is improving or not

sorry to take you away from your argument but i was wondering about the differences in the gt28rs and the gt2871r. My opinion is that if both are running on idnetical engines and both running 1.2bar (which the gt28rs is fully capable of supplying to the sr right up until the limiter) then i can't see there being any difference

my thoughs are as follows, providing that both turbos are able to keep the plenium pressurised at 1.2bar un until the limiter then there would be no difference becasue if the plenium is at 1.2 bar then the cylinder will be at as close to 1.2bar as the port and valve opening time allows regardless of how much the turbo can flow in a set period of time

the difference would come when you up the psi so the gt28rs can not flow enough to keep the plenium at say 1.5 bar, or if there is internal work done, ie wild cams or porting where there will be more air able to get into the cylinder due to th ports being bigger and better shaped and the valve being open longer, or the capacity being increased so there cylinder is bigger and takes more air to fill it and there fore the gt28rs cannot flow enough to keep the plenium at the set pressure as more air is being taken in by the cylinders


or can someone tell me why i'm wrong

[Mark]

JP got 328bhp with 95RON @1.2bar and got 343bhp with E85 @1.2bar with the same setup using T28r

And who is to say thats a reliable figure either

With all the cars running T28r's i have never seen one make much over 300bhp on a DD RR

There is soooooo much bullshit floating around about power figures i dont know why people get so hung up about them, its just my dick is bigger than your dick

Who gives a fook

[johnnyhillen]

And who is to say thats a reliable figure either

With all the cars running T28r's i have never seen one make much over 300bhp on a DD RR

There is soooooo much bullshit floating around about power figures i dont know why people get so hung up about them, its just my dick is bigger than your dick

Who gives a fook

similar to what i said about the rr but i think i was a bit more polite about it

[DanS14]

johnny, in your second paragraph you have assumed something that is incorrect - same boost pressures on different sized turbo result to a different mass flow of air reaching the cylinders. last paragraph sounds good though.

Anyway, people might want to think about the Brake Specific Fuel Consumption for the engine and the required horsepower target rather than guess if a turbo can achieve it, or if a dyno reads high.
From there you can use some simple sums, including the afr ratio which is to be (or was) used, to get the required airflow to achieve that hp target. Even then the range of afr's that can be used will be limited to a certain window before you start losing power.
If this required airflow (lb/min) is beyond the choke line on the compressor map for the specific turbo then you can instantly see whether your horsepower target (or result) is a pipedream.
If the airflow requirement is within the compressor map boundaries, you can then work out the manifold absolute pressure that would be required to achieve that power. It's only then that you need to consider the engine capacity, and revs at which this peak power is achieved, amongst a few other things. Very quickly from that figure you can double check on the compressor map against boost, and whether that would require too high a spin rate for the turbo to survive (and how efficient it might be).

I can tell you now, from the above calculations, that to achieve the high results for a 28r as mentioned in this thread, would require not only for the turbo to be on the ragged edge of it's flow capacity, but the engine BSFC to be more akin to a race engine (or Honda lol!) than a 14 year old mass produced Nissan lump, and the fuel required likely to be very high octane. Either that, or the manifold absolute pressure required would require the turbo to spin at speeds it's simply not capable of doing.

It's very easy to see an anomolous result from a dyno if the figures simply outstretch the flow capacity of the compressor, or are not achievable at the stated boost pressure.

Right, time to go home!

Edit: I'll just rephrase the bit above
It would require an engine of very efficient BSFC like that of a race car to achieve those high outputs, AND at the same time be at the ragged edge of the compressor map AND require high octane fuel. For an engine like the std nissan lump, it would require the turbo to operate beyond the limits of the choke line of the compressor map, and higher boost pressure than the turbo is capable of surviving at or indeed doing anything meaningful at.

[Pulsargt]

back on topic...the 2871 will be fine on the standard engine untill you can get the rest of the upgrades installed for stage 3/3a...ran mine for about a month before i put the injectors, AFM and chip in... just keep the boost down so you do not hit the cut out....

[geogge]

And who is to say thats a reliable figure either

With all the cars running T28r's i have never seen one make much over 300bhp on a DD RR

There is soooooo much bullshit floating around about power figures i dont know why people get so hung up about them, its just my dick is bigger than your dick

Who gives a fook

Well your correct in a way, i certainly dont give a fook about how big or small your dick is

Who's to say DD RR is accurate and everyone else's is wrong.

I don't give a fook about who got what but you can get more from a t28r then 300bhp all depending on your fuel and supporting mods.

[Vova]

12psi out of a std T28 and 12psi out of a GT2871R is NOT the same,

yes, the pressure is the same, but the volumes of air are completely different,

That is not true. 12PSI = 12PSI = The same volume of air (given the same temp). Imagine a square box with 1L or air at atmos pressure. To reach 1 bar in that box, you need to pump in 1L more and it doesnt matter if you do it with a T28 or a 2871R.

The only thing is, is that a 2871R will flow 12PSI for a longer amount of time than a T28. I.e. hold the boost longer. Considering the S14's redline only being 7400 or so, the SR20DET's properties of air comsumption, 12PSI will also be held by a T28 so in essence, with the 2871R you will be flowing exactly as much air as with a 2871R

Now if the SR could rev till 15.000RPM, the T28 wouldn't be able to hold 12PSI after lets guess..12.000? Where the 2871R would be able to flow enough air to maintain a 12PSI pressure up to 15 000RPM

[Karan]

my 28r makes 294bhp and 310bhp on my interneally stock sr20 at 1.2bar, but it makes this bhp at just under 6k, due to it just running out of puff at high revs.. i therefore think 330bhp is a 'tad optimistic for the 28r,,,,more rs territory

i would assume the 2871r is abl to efficiently flow higher volumes of air.

i am thinking of goign this route on my stock engine, but may just rebuild to a tomei 2.2 stroker (or similar) and go for a bigger turbo. being a track car, reliability is my fear...