Saab FMIC [Archive] - SXOC Bulletin Board

Dave_S14

30-09-2001, 21:42

Who has fitted one themselves to their S14?
How difficult are they to fit and what do u have to cut to make em fit, also what happens about the pipework. The reason I ask is cos I want one but I dont want to pay like a grand or so for HKS.Has anyone taken it to a garage to be done and how much did they charge?
Sorry for all the questons but I need to know how much work is involved and prices before i commit myself.

Cheers

Dave,

Oh and how much are saab FMIC?

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http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/rides/dave_s14/nissansig.jpg

Paul_S13

30-09-2001, 22:05

Originally posted by Dave_S14:
Has anyone taken it to a garage to be done and how much did they charge?

http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/rolleyes.gif I'm afraid your going to have to get your hands dirty and do it yourself.

Paul_S13

30-09-2001, 22:09

Also I think they go for about £70 the supplier www.neobrothers.com (http://www.neobrothers.com) have sussed what is happening, they only charged me £47 when I first whent in there.

It should be easy to fit in an S14 because there is alot more room.

Dave_S14

30-09-2001, 22:38

Originally posted by paul_s13:
Also I think they go for about £70 the supplier www.neobrothers.com (http://www.neobrothers.com) have sussed what is happening, they only charged me £47 when I first whent in there.

It should be easy to fit in an S14 because there is alot more room.

£70 still aint a bad price at all.

I dont mind doing it myself so long as I know whats involved before I buy one. What happens abut the new pipe work, is there like a kit or something available for fitting a FMIC or do you just buy bits of pipe you need.

Cheers

Dave.

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http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/rides/dave_s14/nissansig.jpg

Paul_S13

30-09-2001, 22:44

Its a case of working out what you need and ordering it, the silicone hoses cost me about £70

Dave_S14

01-10-2001, 17:36

Cheers paul,

I think Im gonna look in to getting meself one, what sort of bhp will i gain from it?

Cheers

Dave.

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http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/rides/dave_s14/nissansig.jpg

Paul_S13

01-10-2001, 20:08

My power figure when from 215bhp to 235bhp

Dave_S14

02-10-2001, 17:59

That aint a bad increase for the money, in fact thats f**king good.
Does it raise the boost, cos the norris design brochure says the boost is at 17psi with the FMIC. Can the standard turbo handle this amount of boost?

Cheers

Dave.

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http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/rides/dave_s14/nissansig.jpg

Paul_S13

02-10-2001, 18:54

On a S14 you have a T28 turbo and 17Psi won't be a problem as long as your actuator can hack it.

[This message has been edited by paul_s13 (edited 02-10-2001).]

Bean

02-10-2001, 19:01

Not sure about the Actuator or the Dump Valve reliability running that much boost.

Best of getting a boost gauge as well before the FMIC.

------------------
(MANUAL) 95N/S14
AL0G Red
OBX Short Shifter, PDM Strut Bar, K&N Filter, Private Plate
http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/rides/beans14/nissan2m1small.jpg
ICQ 124584354

Paul_S13

02-10-2001, 20:25

Your DV shouldn't be a problem if you have the Bailey EVO DV their good for 60psi !!! but most DV's should be fine.

Its best to buy an adjustable actuator, a bleed valve is a crude way of upping the boost and they cause boost spikes.

Dave_S14

02-10-2001, 22:03

I have a norris designs DV and acuator so i dont think they should be a problem, should they?

cheers

Dave.

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http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/rides/dave_s14/nissansig.jpg

Daniel san

02-10-2001, 22:59

It doesn't "raise" the boost to 17psi by itself, that's just the way Norris has presented things in his brochure. He's just saying thst with the FMIC added to the other ND conversions you can happily run 17psi and this is what power output you will get. It may raise the boost slightly, due to the increased efficiency of the IC. You can set the boost up to whatever you want.

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Dan
www.puresx.co.uk

'98 Saphire Blue S14 (manual of course)
Far too many mods to list here, it takes up far too much space and after being asked very nicely I've decided to shorten the sig (Is that a WOOHOO I hear??)
I, have NO SMELLY TREE, have no plans for a smelly tree and do not want a smelly tree, EVER!!!
Do not take offence to anything I say, even though I probably mean it. I am more than slightly mad, so just chill de feck oooot, ok!

Nick_Walczak

03-10-2001, 10:20

I presume you remove the old wingmounted item from the pipework too?

What about bracketry? Did you make your own?

Reeph

03-10-2001, 11:43

I'd like to clarify something if you guys don't mind. Does the improved IC ensure that the air getting to the turbo is cooler and does it also allow the turbo to suck more air in?

If the above is correct do you then need to adjust the fuel flow to keep up with the increased airflow to benefit from the IC?

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Grant Smith
Blue T 'reg' Manual

Rossy

03-10-2001, 11:50

My T28 Hybrid runs at 17PSI with a standard Wing mounted IC and ND Actuator.

Simon Norris did have a 2nd Hand HKS front mount from a S14 that was going from 330 ish to 400BHP....dont know if its still available though.

Nick_Walczak

03-10-2001, 12:03

geoff_s14

03-10-2001, 14:00

Originally posted by Reeph:
I'd like to clarify something if you guys don't mind. Does the improved IC ensure that the air getting to the turbo is cooler and does it also allow the turbo to suck more air in?

If the above is correct do you then need to adjust the fuel flow to keep up with the increased airflow to benefit from the IC?

Reeph,

The intercooler is plumbed in line between the turbo and the inlet manifold. It functions to recool the air once it has been compressed by the turbo, rather than cooling the air entering the turbo. Basically, whenever a gas is compressed some of the energy involved in the process appears as heat (which is why the end of your bicycle pump gets hot). For an engine this is a bad thing, since hotter air is less dense than colder air, so it can carry less fuel into the cylinder at the optimal air/fuel ratio. For a given boost pressure the cooler the intake charge, the more air+fuel can be packed into the cylinder, and hence the stronger the power on the combustion stroke.

The fuel flow is worked out at the airflow meter, which since it is plumbed in after the intercooler, is able to detect the denser air and add more fuel accordingly, just like Nick said.

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Geoff
Emerald S14a, with God's Own Transmission.

http://www.animfactory.com/animations/transportation/cars/mirror_md_clr.gif

http://www.mpz.co.uk/cwm/ups/kamikaze/smilie_groupflip2.gif

geoff_s14

03-10-2001, 14:04

Oh, and the importance of an uprated IC as part of a package of upgrades is that it will help compensate for the higher air temperatures associated with running the turbo at a higher boost pressure.

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Geoff
Emerald S14a, with God's Own Transmission.

http://www.animfactory.com/animations/transportation/cars/mirror_md_clr.gif

http://www.mpz.co.uk/cwm/ups/kamikaze/smilie_groupflip2.gif

Bean

03-10-2001, 14:49

I read an article about intercoolers on an american site. They said for every 7psi you raise the boost pressure the air temperature doubles.

This obviously shows the benefits of fitting an FMIC once you raise the boost pressure!

------------------
(MANUAL) 95N/S14
AL0G Red
OBX Short Shifter, PDM Strut Bar, K&N Filter, Private Plate
http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/rides/beans14/nissan2m1small.jpg
ICQ 124584354

Reeph

03-10-2001, 20:57

Cheers Geoff now it finally makes sense! I always thought the IC cooled air going into the engine which didn't make much sense to me as ambient temperature isn't that high. Cooling the air after compression by the turbo makes complete sense!!

Thank you mate!

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Grant Smith
Blue T 'reg' Manual

Dave_S14

03-10-2001, 21:07

Has anyone got any pictures of a FMIC on their S14 or no where i can find some.
Cos I think I might order a saab one tomorrow, i emailed neobrothers and they are £70.
Is the saab FMIC the same sort of size as the HKS one?

Cheers

Dave.

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http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/rides/dave_s14/nissansig.jpg

[This message has been edited by Dave_S14 (edited 03-10-2001).]

Stevecarter200

03-10-2001, 22:37

Originally posted by geoff_s14:

The fuel flow is worked out at the airflow meter, which since it is plumbed in after the intercooler, is able to detect the denser air and add more fuel accordingly, just like Nick said.

Errr, the AFM is before the IC, not after, so it does not alter the fuelling to match a denser charge. However, the Lambda sensor will alter the fuelling when reading a lean mixture. It keeps a constant check on the mixture because it is a closed loop system.

Steve

geoff_s14

04-10-2001, 10:00

Stevecarter200

04-10-2001, 22:50

Originally posted by geoff_s14:
I stand corrected.

http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/tongue.gif
.
.
http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/biggrin.gif

Billy

04-10-2001, 23:37

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SteveCarter100:
[B] Errr, the AFM is before the IC, not after, so it does not alter the fuelling to match a denser charge.

Shurly shome mishtake m8y http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/eek.gif

Stevecarter200

04-10-2001, 23:57

Which bit? AFM, turbo, IC, throttle, engine. Yes?

Billy

05-10-2001, 00:13

The bit between "Errr" and "...charge"

Or is the S14 different to the S13?

Or should I just go to bed

Or spliff up

http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/wink.gif

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Picking car up tomorrow, the 5th....Oh well, it's only 12 more twitchy, long, painfull, yearning, hours. Thank God for you guys. If I start ranting, just slap me......oh, but the test drive was just the best! I mean! It's like a brand new car and the power! ...oh, let me tell you about......

[This message has been edited by Billy (edited 05-10-2001).]

Stevecarter200

05-10-2001, 00:22

I'm basing this on an S13 which I believe is the same set up as an S14 but the AFM is before the turbo and IC so it cant react to a denser charge caused by the IC unlike a MAP sensor. It will alter the fuelling if the charge is denser due to atmospheric conditions. Or am I getting the wrong end of the stick?

Steve

Billy

05-10-2001, 00:30

I think I'm mixing the AFM in with the throttle body! Of course the AFM sits just behind the air filter. Doh!

Definitely need to dummy up...

And go to bed...

'Nite.

Stevecarter200

05-10-2001, 00:45

DOH!

Roll yourself a fat one matey! http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/smile.gif

Or is that the ause of the confusion? http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/biggrin.gif http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/biggrin.gif

Steve

Matt_S

05-10-2001, 12:07

As Dan Blitzd says, the extra efficiency of the larger FMIC will automatically up the boost, possibly by as much as 3 psi (well it did on mine anyway!)
Your ECU will sense the boost increase via the mixture reading given by the lambda sensor. It will then alter the fuelling to prevent the engine running lean.

Anyone already running higher boost (say 16psi) and then uprating the IC should be aware that you may hit the fuel cut (or even cause damage to the engine!) if you do not limit the boost to stock prior to FMIC fitment and then have the boost/ignition set up again after FMIC fitment.

Just a word of warning http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/smile.gif

Matt

Actual_Ben_Taylor

05-10-2001, 12:15

Right, my car is booked in for a custom made fmic from Henstead Motorsport (www.hensteadmsport.co.uk) for the week after next. Should be able to run 17/18psi with it fitted. I'll try and get some pics when its done if anyone is interested...

Matt_S

05-10-2001, 12:53

Nice one Benny Boy!
May even see you down there as Ive got to get my car set up asap.
One thing though, you may need an FCD to stop the inevitable "Vroooooooom, BANG!, OUCH! - fuel cut / head hitting windscreen)once the weather gets a bit cooler.
Last time I was there, Dave (at Henstead) had made a "copy" of the HKS FCD, only better. Charged about £50 plus fitting (judging by Daves labour rates, about £0.02! http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/wink.gif)

A small but significant point methinx!

Matt

Actual_Ben_Taylor

05-10-2001, 13:17

On his website it says FCD fitted for £100, might see how it goes...

Bean

05-10-2001, 13:21

Originally posted by Matt_S:
As Dan Blitzd says, the extra efficiency of the larger FMIC will automatically up the boost, possibly by as much as 3 psi (well it did on mine anyway!)
Your ECU will sense the boost increase via the mixture reading given by the lambda sensor. It will then alter the fuelling to prevent the engine running lean.

Anyone already running higher boost (say 16psi) and then uprating the IC should be aware that you may hit the fuel cut (or even cause damage to the engine!) if you do not limit the boost to stock prior to FMIC fitment and then have the boost/ignition set up again after FMIC fitment.

Just a word of warning http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/smile.gif

Matt

I disagree, the boost won't automatically raise by adding a FMIC. It just means that the same boost pressure won't have such a drop off and higher pressure will get to the engine.

Think I may have contradicted myself there?

------------------
(MANUAL) 95N/S14
AL0G Red
OBX Short Shifter, PDM Strut Bar, K&N Filter, Private Plate
http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/rides/beans14/nissan2m1small.jpg
ICQ 124584354

Tom_S14

05-10-2001, 14:25

This stuff always confuses the hell out of me. All it is is the ideal gas equation right ? You've got mass, density, volume, temperature all inter-related here. PV = nRT right, so to reduce the temperature by a load without reducing pressure the volume of gas has to go up. Volume goes up, but the mass of air is presumably constant (or atleast the ECU thinks it is since it measures air mass before it gets to the intercooler and fuels at the engine accordingly !!)... so I suppose if density of air is a stronger function of temperature than it is of volume then you just about get an advantage, and you end up with denser, cooler air at the engine. BUT... since the mass of the air going in is measured at atmospheric pressure, and the engine can only suck in a given volume of gas each stroke... Nah... still don't get it....

Tom

Bean

05-10-2001, 14:50

Originally posted by Tom_S14:
This stuff always confuses the hell out of me. All it is is the ideal gas equation right ? You've got mass, density, volume, temperature all inter-related here. PV = nRT right, so to reduce the temperature by a load without reducing pressure the volume of gas has to go up. Volume goes up, but the mass of air is presumably constant (or atleast the ECU thinks it is since it measures air mass before it gets to the intercooler and fuels at the engine accordingly !!)... so I suppose if density of air is a stronger function of temperature than it is of volume then you just about get an advantage, and you end up with denser, cooler air at the engine. BUT... since the mass of the air going in is measured at atmospheric pressure, and the engine can only suck in a given volume of gas each stroke... Nah... still don't get it....

Tom

Look like someone swallowed a physics book, careful now Tom we're not all as intelligent as wot u is! http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/biggrin.gif

Basically with a FMIC a lower volume of air at a recuced density but lower temperature feeds the engine. Therefore your are running with greater efficiency.

Ouch , my head hurts!!!!!!!!! http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/biggrin.gif http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/biggrin.gif http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
(MANUAL) 95N/S14
AL0G Red
OBX Short Shifter, PDM Strut Bar, K&N Filter, Private Plate
http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/rides/beans14/nissan2m1small.jpg
ICQ 124584354

Tom_S14

05-10-2001, 15:34

....... well this is just it, cos if the air coming out of the intercooler has a lower density - this is no good. We want it to be higher (to whack a load more fuel at it). But in any case, since the air mass is measured before any of this malarky goes on, then we won't be whacking any more fuel at it anyway.....See what I mean ?
This is wot does my bleedin brain in. God I'm a sad bastard, why can't I just accept it works and shut up eh ? http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/biggrin.gif

Tom

JohnD76

05-10-2001, 15:49

Originally posted by Billy:
The bit between "Errr" and "...charge"

Or is the S14 different to the S13?

Or should I just go to bed

Or spliff up

http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/wink.gif

Spliff up everytime!!! http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/biggrin.gif

Daniel san

05-10-2001, 21:58

Originally posted by BeanS14:
I disagree, the boost won't automatically raise by adding a FMIC. It just means that the same boost pressure won't have such a drop off and higher pressure will get to the engine.

Think I may have contradicted myself there?

I think you may have. http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/wink.gif

Basically, I'm no expert (Matt_S, check this please) but as I understand it, there is a drop off in boost pressure across the IC, so having a much more efficient unit will result in less of a drop off and the end result is a higher psi.

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Dan
www.puresx.co.uk

'98 Saphire Blue S14 (manual of course)
Far too many mods to list here, it takes up far too much space and after being asked very nicely I've decided to shorten the sig (Is that a WOOHOO I hear??)
I, have NO SMELLY TREE, have no plans for a smelly tree and do not want a smelly tree, EVER!!!
Do not take offence to anything I say, even though I probably mean it. I am more than slightly mad, so just chill de feck oooot, ok!

Daniel san

05-10-2001, 22:01

Originally posted by SteveCarter100:
Errr, the AFM is before the IC, not after, so it does not alter the fuelling to match a denser charge. However, the Lambda sensor will alter the fuelling when reading a lean mixture. It keeps a constant check on the mixture because it is a closed loop system.

Steve

Steve's right, as long as the Lambda sensor isn't fooked right up. The it will run lean and one of your pistons might get stuck in the bore causing loads of damage, both to the engine and your wallet!

But hey, I'm not bitter. The engine work is complete now.

------------------
Dan
www.puresx.co.uk

'98 Saphire Blue S14 (manual of course)
Far too many mods to list here, it takes up far too much space and after being asked very nicely I've decided to shorten the sig (Is that a WOOHOO I hear??)
I, have NO SMELLY TREE, have no plans for a smelly tree and do not want a smelly tree, EVER!!!
Do not take offence to anything I say, even though I probably mean it. I am more than slightly mad, so just chill de feck oooot, ok!

kopite

04-03-2005, 20:21

what kinda saab does the cooler come from? a 900 or 9000 or what? sounds too good to be true apart from the fabrication bit but hey, i like a challenge!!

djbuknard

18-03-2005, 15:11

9000 Cse 2.3t

s14 neal

18-03-2005, 18:24

i've got one in my 14a right now mate, if you wanna have a look your welcome as its coming out monday evening to be replaced by my monster alloy one thats finally turned up. its a pian in the arse to fit as its bloody long, hangs down a bit. i take it you already got the cooler seeing as you work at saab dealership! ;)

archenemy.co.uk

18-03-2005, 20:22

Saab 9000 coolers are too deep, you can't fit them in front of the rad and AC rad, if you put them behind they will be about 50% as good :(

s14 neal

18-03-2005, 21:47

Saab 9000 coolers are too deep, you can't fit them in front of the rad and AC rad, if you put them behind they will be about 50% as good :(
sorry mate, will have to disagree on that point, i have one in the front of my 14a and although it is deep, it doesn't hang below the front valance and i have mounted it in the space under the headlights. :nod:

archenemy.co.uk

19-03-2005, 08:05

sorry mate, will have to disagree on that point, i have one in the front of my 14a and although it is deep, it doesn't hang below the front valance and i have mounted it in the space under the headlights. :nod:

Picture then... I measured it up and it wouldn't go, others have tried and failed and ended up with it inside the engine bay on the back of the AC rad

Are you sure its the 9000 2.3 T FMIC, they are too wide to fit right in front of the rad, and too deep to fit in the usual place just behind the bumper

Lennie

19-03-2005, 08:07

Go outside and take you gearbox off phil.

archenemy.co.uk

19-03-2005, 08:14

surprised you're out of bed Lennie :smitten:

Lennie

19-03-2005, 08:24

surprised you're out of bed Lennie :smitten:

I woke up because i needed a shit and didnt want to go back and wake her up. Let her sleep so she isnt tired and can be used to full potential later. :thumbs:

djbuknard

19-03-2005, 08:26

Neal, Yeah I have one off my managers 300+ bhp 9000 Anniversary Aero 2.3T

Phil, The ic works on s14 using jez's guide s14a because of light shapes etc seems to work
with pipe joins at the base ala S14 neal which looked good buddy also have you sold the pipes and brackets as I would be interested in taking them off your hands should I do it the same way.

archenemy.co.uk

19-03-2005, 08:58

I woke up because i needed a shit and didnt want to go back and wake her up. Let her sleep so she isnt tired and can be used to full potential later. :thumbs:

:whip:

Phil, The ic works on s14 using jez's guide s14a because of light shapes etc seems to work
with pipe joins at the base ala S14 neal which looked good buddy also have you sold the pipes and brackets as I would be interested in taking them off your hands should I do it the same way.

Eh, don't understand that, English please :D

djbuknard

19-03-2005, 11:41

Sorry Phil,

Really hungover this morning :D

The saab ic works on the s14 vehicles using the same technique as guidlined in jez @ horshams website.

The s14a, however, requires you to mount it angled forwards @ the front of the two rads under the lights ala S14 Neal. In this method the ic pipework routes similiarly to the kits where you require to cut a hole in wheel arches and remove or resize battery and move the water bottle.

It will however take some uber bodging in both but I am up for a challange as Neal was

The last bit I mentioned should really have been directed at Neal as I was wondering if I could nab the pipes and brackets in exchange for money as although it is a longer route for the pipes than Jez;s method to have the "kit" effectively ready to just bolt on with my ic would be superb.

archenemy.co.uk

19-03-2005, 19:35

Hmm

When I started wanting a FMIC they were about £600 for the cheapest which was the Apexi. I didn't want to pay that much, so I looked around for alternatives.

Really the only coolers worth fitting to an S14 if you're on the DIY route IMO are the Skyline GTR and the Evo 5/6. The Evo is an excellent fit, and a good cooler, but because they are such a good cooler most of the Evo lot keep them, there are more people with damaged evos looking for 2nd hand ones so they are pricier than the bigger and probably little better GTR cooler - which requires more work to fit.

When you compare the build and size of these 2 against a Saab cooler you'll see there is no comparison, they are far better

The most expensive / hardest part is the pipes, so I'd say either

1. Buy a greddy or Brens budget one for £400-500
2. Get a £150 jap cooler off bren or Ebay and make your own pipes
3. Get a GTR / Evo cooler and make your own pipes

For what you save on the Saab cooler its not worth it for me, especially if you have to lean it right over and spoil the airflow, only a small amount of it will get flow through the bumper anyhow, so a thicker smaller cooler must be better :thumbs:

s14 neal

20-03-2005, 06:47

Phil, The ic works on s14 using jez's guide s14a because of light shapes etc seems to work
with pipe joins at the base ala S14 neal which looked good buddy also have you sold the pipes and brackets as I would be interested in taking them off your hands should I do it the same way.

no problem buddy, they aren't pretty but work fine, you will still need a 90deg 76mm i/d samco elbow and a 3" dump valve t piece as i'm keeping these bits for the new one. will let you know soon as its off, sometime this week i imagine, just waiting for my new samco's.
i can see wher phil is coming from, i have to really seeing as i just got myself one of the 'ebay coolers' (but at 143quid delivered i wasn't really gonna say no was i?! ;) ), but i think it was a little harsh to say that it wasn't worth doing and should get a gtr/evo one instead. i looked into the saab coolers before fitting them and they actually perform very well and don't forget, the s13 boys been doing this mod for years. :nod:
mine isn't 'leaned right over', it has a slight angle to it granted, but the airflow isn't obstructed any more than normal as the bars of the cooler are rounded.
my only problem was the brackets i made were too thin and the cooler kept sagging which meant every so often i had to lean under and push it back up. stonger brackets would have solved this though.

archenemy.co.uk

20-03-2005, 15:22

but i think it was a little harsh to say that it wasn't worth doing and should get a gtr/evo one instead. i looked into the saab coolers before fitting them and they actually perform very well and don't forget, the s13 boys been doing this mod for years.

I don't think I'm being harsh I'm just doing the maths, much harsher things are said on here.

Saab cooler + pipe run for an S14 = £300
GTR/Evo cooler + pipe run for an S14 =£350-400
Jap cooler + pipe run for an S14 =£350-400
cheapest cooler kit = approx £400 (no hassle at all)

Saab cooler plus saab/S13 pipes for S13 = £50

Thats why it doesn't make sense to fit one to an S14 to me. If I had an S13 which I wanted 250-300bhp out of, I'd fit one. But not on an S14, the maths doesn't work and I can't see how it will fit.

It isn't cheap enough to my mind to bother doing it on an S14

s14 neal

20-03-2005, 21:34

£300??? my cooler and all pipework cost well under £100. just used boost hoses from volvo 740 plus the original plastic boost hoses from the wing mount. i don't wanna upset anyone cos i agree with many of the things phill has said, i just beleive there are ways of doing things a lot cheaper than people imagine if you're willing to put the effort in. :nod: