View Full Version : Project Wasaabi aka Eleanor May
EDIT: UPDATE!Check out my brief summary of the project, in pictures, here! http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/?f=summary :)
Well, I thought about adding to this one: http://www.sxoc.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?t=274474&highlight=bodging
But on reflection this bodgery deserves it's own thread!
Not really sure where to start, but as many of you may know I've been working on designing a spaceframe based on the S14. I've also made the "interesting" choice to go mid engined with a Saab 2.3 turbo lump transversely mounted in the rear with the Aero gearbox.
Nicely, the entire engine sits forward of the driveshafts, so great for weight distribution and getting it all in side the axles. What it does mean though is that the stock S14 subframe is out of the window. The good news is that the engine does fit inside the multi point suspension points, so I've been jigging things up. I'm getting close to the "stick the major components together and see what we need to go back to the drawing board with" stage (iterative development at it's best!!).
Achievements to date:
Removing the Saab engine and entire wiring loom and steering column. I intend to use the column and entire electrics + dash from the Saab.
Removing the engine from the S14 :cry: Sad day, yet one also full of excitement as I've bitten the bullet and have to crack on lest I spend too long without a nutter-mobile.
Building the platform on which to build the chassis.
Pic to follow in next posts...:thumbs:
Out comes the Saab engine and off goes the shell. Note the comedy ride height with no lump in the engine bay...
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Wasaabi/Saab%209000%20engine%20removal/2008_06_05-10.23.42_IMG_0006%20(Small).jpg
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Wasaabi/Saab%209000%20engine%20removal/2008_06_06-13.33.58_IMG_0026%20(Small).jpg
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Wasaabi/Saab%209000%20engine%20removal/2008_06_10-13.13.46_IMG_0006%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Wasaabi/Saab%209000%20engine%20removal/2008_06_10-13.14.42_IMG_0009%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Wasaabi/Saab%209000%20engine%20removal/2008_06_10-13.30.08_IMG_0013%20(Small).JPG
Nissan engine comes out too - sad day :(
Although I have plans for the lump! My Omega desperately needs a new engine :smash::smash:
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Wasaabi/SR%20Engine%20out,%20reduced/2008_07_12-21.51.26_IMG_0031%20(Medium)%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Wasaabi/SR%20Engine%20out,%20reduced/2008_07_12-21.58.38_IMG_0039%20(Medium)%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Wasaabi/SR%20Engine%20out,%20reduced/2008_07_12-22.08.32_IMG_0041%20(Medium)%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Wasaabi/SR%20Engine%20out,%20reduced/2008_07_12-22.09.28_IMG_0045%20(Medium)%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Wasaabi/SR%20Engine%20out,%20reduced/2008_07_12-22.09.48_IMG_0047%20(Medium)%20(Small).JPG
And now the real fun begins. I've built (as per the Haynes "build your own car" book) a nice big flat platform to work on. I've even painted it white and gridded it up into 100mm squares to make life easier.
I now have both the rear subframe and the front cross member firmly attached in the right place. The S14 schematics I got from the states were very useful in getting the relative heights of everything correct.
You can see the jigs for the rear subframe.
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Wasaabi/Picture%20001%20(Small).jpg
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Wasaabi/Picture%20005%20(Small).jpg
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Wasaabi/IMG_0209%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Wasaabi/IMG_0210%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Wasaabi/IMG_0211%20(Small).JPG
Good luck :thumbs:, always nice to see new things an mad folk at play
japdrifter
28-07-2008, 00:11
edit...i understand now:thumbs:
would a bed stead type frame of 4"x2" steal box section not have been better for a build jig as it would aid in the build more as you could weld in suports as you went where you needed them :) [metal is my job:wack:]
*subscribes*
Awesome stuff :notworthy
would a bed stead type frame of 4"x2" steal box section not have been better for a build jig as it would aid in the build more as you could weld in suports as you went where you needed them :) [metal is my job:wack:]
umm, not sure what you mean - do you mean for the big platforrm? Thing is, I have to move the thing! The subframe, due to it's shape, will not lift off the two jigs in one piece, so the jigs will be bolted to the platform, then the whole lot unbolted, the jigs removed from the subframe, and then the jigs rebolted to the platform, everything remeasured, and off we go :)
I've just noticed where the "Saab and the trailer" pic is. Hmm so close to me :D
I've just noticed where the "Saab and the trailer" pic is. Hmm so close to me :D
Pop round for a cuppa! I'm normally kicking around in the evenings and weekends. :)
you build a rectangle frame [must be leavel]to the dimensions of the car your building then jig off that, its solid and will not flex or twist and its easy to tack on temp suports when you need them:)
you build a rectangle frame [must be leavel]to the dimensions of the car your building then jig off that, its solid and will not flex or twist and its easy to tack on temp suports when you need them:)
Yeah - you're probably right. :rolleyes: But if it's good enough for thousands of chapman's coffin dodgems, then it's good enough for me :thumbs: The bed is built on three lengths of 2x4 by 6 lengths of 2x4 covered in 12mm ply. Basically, the ply is supported by 600mm squares of 2x4. Checked and levelled.
Yeah - you're probably right. :rolleyes: But if it's good enough for thousands of chapman's coffin dodgems, then it's good enough for me :thumbs: The bed is built on three lengths of 2x4 by 6 lengths of 2x4 covered in 12mm ply. Basically, the ply is supported by 600mm squares of 2x4. Checked and levelled.
are you building one of those 1"x1" westfield wanna be's or a space frame race car:D
are you building one of those 1"x1" westfield wanna be's or a space frame race car:D
A bit of both, to be honest. A lot of 1x1, with some 3/4x3/4 for the secondaries, but incorprating a roll cage and so some 1 3/4 round tube. It's tin top (well, grp) and using the S14 suspension. Oh, and it's mid engined, with a centrally positioned driver.
A lot of priciples have been taken from the locost / westy design, of course, but then alot of it is differnt.
Ooooh I can't wait to see this one being built!! :thumbs:
Dave
This is going to be a very interesting thread :thumbs:
A bit of both, to be honest. A lot of 1x1, with some 3/4x3/4 for the secondaries, but incorprating a roll cage and so some 1 3/4 round tube. It's tin top (well, grp) and using the S14 suspension. Oh, and it's mid engined, with a centrally positioned driver.
A lot of priciples have been taken from the locost / westy design, of course, but then alot of it is differnt.
go on use 1" pipe for weight saving and a tube bender to remove quite a bit of welding, you just need a router tool to form the T joints:)
go on use 1" pipe for weight saving and a tube bender to remove quite a bit of welding, you just need a router tool to form the T joints:)
But I like welding in straight lines :cry:
:D Besides, I simply don't have the space for a pipe bender as well. Seriously though, as a first build it myself to my own design project, I think I'm best off keeping some of it pretty simple, and sqaure tube is such a doddle to work with, get sqaure, mount things to etc etc.
Next one.... :thumbs:
But I like welding in straight lines :cry:
:D Besides, I simply don't have the space for a pipe bender as well. Seriously though, as a first build it myself to my own design project, I think I'm best off keeping some of it pretty simple, and sqaure tube is such a doddle to work with, get sqaure, mount things to etc etc.
Next one.... :thumbs:
one thing i would advise after many years working with metal get a good mig set:nod:
Bloody awesome project mate,
Can't wait to see it (you gonna have a reversing camera in this one too? :D )
one thing i would advise after many years working with metal get a good mig set:nod:
Bought an SIP 105, which came out very well in a number of reviews specifically looking at MIG welders for automotive work. It's still very much a home piece of kit, rather than industrial, but my welding has improved over night! Having used a little stick welder for ages, MIG with argoshield is like a dream come true :D
I'm getting loads of practice in with it all the same, welding up dummy parts and jigs :thumbs:
Bloody awesome project mate,
Can't wait to see it (you gonna have a reversing camera in this one too? :D )
yup - i may even stretch to buying the screens too! :thumbs:
as in all welding its penetration that counts:nod:
as in all welding its penetration that counts:nod:
:nod: I will be doing quite a few practice runs on the 1x1 i intend to use, and then cut them open to look at the penetration :thumbs:
:nod: I will be doing quite a few practice runs on the 1x1 i intend to use, and then cut them open to look at the penetration :thumbs:
you must keep this thread updated :nod::)
OK, a bit more progress. I've jigged a cross member on the platform, but I also need to get the relative points of the tension arm pickups and the tops of the turrets.
So, on the car in the drive, I've welded braces across the tension arm brackets and the cross member, such that they will come out as one piece. That can then be put onto the jig on the platform, and the the other key points can be jigged.
But what about the turrets? Well, I have jigged those in the car, and will tack some brackets to them which are bolted down to the aforementioned front crossmember and brackets. The turret jigs can then be bolted onto the rest of it on the platform, and then fixed in place, before cutting away the brakcets fastening them to the cross member.
I think that makes sense...
Had a bit of a mare welding outside. As sods law would have it, the wind picked up everytime I was welding, so I ditched the mig and went for the stick - hence the slightly blobby turret jig! :rolleyes:
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Wasaabi/IMG_0235%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Wasaabi/IMG_0236%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Wasaabi/IMG_0238%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Wasaabi/IMG_0239%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Wasaabi/IMG_0242%20(Small).JPG
You sir, are mental :notworthy
You sir, are mental :notworthy
I've been called worse things... :D
Very excited - I picked up the 3mm sheet I had folded for the suspension pick ups today! The fact that the Omega fuel tank emptied it's guts out on the way and I had to come back on an AA wagon seems immaterial now! :D
A bit frustrated though, as when some chaps were loading the old S14 engine, I had to move the platform with the jigs on out of the garage, and the neighbour ran over it :annoyed:
Great to see projects like this:nod:
fook me thats some extream work going on there,
after the whole thing is done what are you acctually trying to acheave, a tubular chassis with a fibreglass bodyshell.
i take it all the jigging etc is so that you can have all the suspsension and subframe positions set and then join them together without the origional shell in place????
i take it all the jigging etc is so that you can have all the suspsension and subframe positions set and then join them together without the origional shell in place????
Correct. I can jig the rear from a subframe. The front is a little more complex, as I have to get the crossmember, tension arm and turret points correct, and they are four seperate parts! So the jib for the front is being built in situ, so that when I take it all out, I can bolt it all back together.
Then from THAT I need to jig the points on the platform. :rolleyes:
The front and rear I can align relatively using this... http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Public/s14pdf/240sx%20Dimensions%20Schematic.pdf
I'll also use the schematic to get double check all the diagonal dimensions.
shit me there are a lot of dimensions to take into account. very handy schematic that one,
looks like you have really done your homework, good luck on this one and i really hope it all works how you want it to :)
Bloomin' awesome,
Looks like it's really coming together :D
Bloomin' awesome,
Looks like it's really coming together :D
Well, it is and it isn't. I'm STILL jigging up the inside of the S14 engine bay.
Every now and again I have this really sick feeling in my gut and a voice saying "why didn't you just tune your S14 like everyone else. What if you build it and it's crap....?" :hurl:
But then I go back and measure things again, and i feel better :wack:
I've taken a week off in September to try to get to the point that I have a rolling chassis.
Hiya nick...:wave:
looks like youre on your way to a monster!! :D
If theres anything i can help with, just shout..:)
Hiya nick...:wave:
looks like youre on your way to a monster!! :D
If theres anything i can help with, just shout..:)
If you have a fat wedge of cash lying around that you don't need...... :D
I've taken a week off in September to try to get to the point that I have a rolling chassis.
good luck, september really is not that far away now. very interested to see what you get rolling :)
I couldn't sleep last night for things going round in my head, and I decided that my approach to jogging the turrets was over engineered and too prone to error.
I had been making it in pieces to allow removal and reassembly, but then realised that the two turret parts do not need to be independent, as I can just dro pthe struts down to allow the turret jigs to be taken off in one (the studs angle inward, so it would be impossible with them poking through). That means that the whole turret job can be made a single piece which bolts to the crossmember/arb assembley in three places.
Much simpler/easier/acurate, although it means I've wasted some time/steel. Still, rather get it right. And the welding practice is always good.
The aim is to have got everything off the shell before september :whip:
OK, I've pretty much jigged up the front now. I need to take out the upper jig and give it an assement for how stiff it is, but i'm confident. If it's ok, then it'll go to one side until I drag out the lower arrangement.
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/IMAG0134 (Medium).jpg
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/IMAG0135 (Medium).jpg
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/IMAG0136 (Medium).jpg
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/IMAG0137 (Medium).jpg
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/IMAG0138 (Medium).jpg
And it's out (with a bit of a tug). Didn't have to drop the strut either. I guess I did the right thing using a 10.5mm drill bit instead of a 10mm. Little bit of play :thumbs:
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/IMAG0139%20(Medium).jpg
nice use of triangulation lol. to the extream ha ha.
im starting to get the idea you have now. so basically you will have the positions of all the suspension mounting points in the same place as where the car origionally intended.
so whats the plan from then?? do you have a roll cage that you can triangulate to these suspension points or are you going to make something completely different??
nice use of triangulation lol. to the extream ha ha.
:D I really don't want the thing to move :no: Most things I can handle being not quite where they were intended to be, and it's not unusual for a chassis to warp by 10mm over it's length due to welding, but the suspension points HAVE to be bang on.
so basically you will have the positions of all the suspension mounting points in the same place as where the car origionally intended
Correct :thumbs:
so whats the plan from then?? do you have a roll cage that you can triangulate to these suspension points or are you going to make something completely different??
Something completely different really. All the S14 geometry, shocks, brakes, hubs etc etc, but with a transvers engine in the back. Three seats, with the driver centrally positioned and further forward, with A=Pilliars where the turrets are.
Yes, I'll be "recycling" parts of my roll cage, but it's more than a roll cage with bits bolted on.
It won't look like an S14. In fact I'm not really sure what it's going to look like. I'm in the 2nd round of design on paper, and there will be a third once all the major components are laid out and jigged.
wow. when are you looking to have something that resembles a car again, even if its not shelled or engined??
so your building an meclaren f1 sx:nod:
wow. when are you looking to have something that resembles a car again, even if its not shelled or engined??
I have a week off in September - that's my target: to have something that can be rolled in and out of the garage by the end of that week
so your building an meclaren f1 sx:nod:
In a way - yes :)
very very very cool stuff i want to do something like this one day once im married have a house sorted and so on........ will it every happen..... i got myself a copy of build yourself a sports car for £250
very very very cool stuff i want to do something like this one day once im married have a house sorted and so on........ will it every happen..... i got myself a copy of build yourself a sports car for £250
Dude - trust me - do it before you're married.... :thumbs: :D
Fortunately my wife loves the fact that I'm completely barking... :wack:
yeah i have a small problem with that im getting married in 14months have a house to buy and a timeattack car to get reliable
yeah i have a small problem with that im getting married in 14months have a house to buy and a timeattack car to get reliable
Ahhhh... Busy man then! :D
very very very cool stuff
Well, I dunno about that. I want to be clear here - I haven't got a clue what I'm doing... :wack: Well, not quite true, but it may be a sack of spanners to drive!
i got myself a copy of build yourself a sports car for £250
Good luck doing it for £250 ;)
Got the rest of the jig / low crossmembers out :D
Pant's camera was on crap setting!! :annoyed:
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/IMAG0140%20(Medium).jpg
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/IMAG0141%20(Medium).jpg
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/IMAG0142%20(Medium).jpg
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/IMAG0143%20(Medium).jpg
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/IMAG0144%20(Medium).jpg
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/IMAG0145%20(Medium).jpg
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/IMAG0146%20(Medium).jpg
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/IMAG0147%20(Medium).jpg
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/IMAG0148%20(Medium).jpg
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/IMAG0149%20(Medium).jpg
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/IMAG0150%20(Medium).jpg
Try again with the pics.... :rolleyes:
Cross member at brackets out in one :thumbs:
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/IMAG0154%20(Medium).jpg
Tiny wheels!
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/IMAG0151%20(Medium).jpg
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/IMAG0152%20(Medium).jpg
Well, the Omega has been called a shed before. And now, thanks to lack of space, IT IS!
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/IMAG0153%20(Medium).jpg
Jig reassembled! And initial measurements suggests all is still square. Nice! :thumbs: http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/IMAG0155%20(Medium).jpg
Just placed my order for my steel: 48 metres of 25mm x 25mm x 1.5mm ERW square tube.
£100 delivered! :thumbs:
Better clear some space - it arrives tomorrow!!!! :D
looking good so far will be good to see how she develops. You must have some sketches you've made to give us an idea of your final shape and maybe some of your tubing designs or are you not willing to share them just yet. :)
There are some pics kicking around, but these were done on the premise that I was going to use the original S14 drive train, which I'm now not. Time and other factors have dictatied that I get the s14 shell off the drive, and get the jigged parts out.
The "design" is a rough "yes it will all fit", but needs to be re-done on paper before welding starts. I opted to get the jigs in place to allow more acurate measureing of the key components relative to each otehr, before "filing in the gaps" as it were.
What's it going to look like? Your guess is as good as mine. It's not quite as "build it on the fly" as it might sound, but it's very much an interative process, refining the designs that are further down the line of realisation, as problems are addressed, designs are changed and facts are confirmed earlier on.
With the A-pillars being where the turrets are (for stiffness and allowing the drive to be relatively far forward to account for the mid engine and two passengers), and the need to use a fairly standard windscreen from something readily available, it will (as far as current plans go!) likely look like a Gillardo / Esprit kind of shape, with a shortish "snout")
you can recoup some of the project costs once finished by selling the jigs to the Tate Modern as a modern steel sculpture. call it summat like 'Steel tree rising' and some chinless-wonder from the city will pay £20k for it :D
Big respect mate :notworthy ya doing a grand job :thumbs:
LOL! Thanks! It's like a big pylon!
The next step is to make up some pieces a bit like toblerone. These will bolt onto the jig where the turrents were, and will off set the turrets by 100mm (the greatest distance I can wind my front shocks in by, from their current state) along the line of the shock
Remember all that faffing about with clever spreadsheets to understand the effect of keeping the front suspension as is, but shortenning the strut by dropping the top mount - well that's it - actually happening now!!! :D
This is going to be amazing. Can´t wait to see it come together!
Righto - a bit more, but not quite as exciting. I'm working my way backaward down the shell, scavaging everything of use, and got to the bulkhead. Not one to trash something for the sakes of it, instead of cutting the pedal box out, I've jigged that too. Used wood, as it's a bit easier to work with and it's not as critical as the suspension. I'll get pics of the inside jig up later, but essentially I've sandwiched the bulhead so that I can reproduce it on the new car. Whilst I could probably have knocked it up on the fly, it's nice to be able to make the panel first and then just fit that.
The clutch pedla / master cylinder just goes straight through a narrow panel in the bulk head. The brake pedal / servo however stradle a really wide gap (couple of inches), and the accelerator pedal is offset on two stud on the inside.
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Wasaabi/IMAG0157%20(Medium)%20(Small).jpg
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Wasaabi/IMAG0158%20(Medium)%20(Small).jpg
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Wasaabi/IMAG0159%20(Medium)%20(Small).jpg
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Wasaabi/IMAG0160%20(Medium)%20(Small).jpg
Oh, it appears that the thread name has changed. Many thanks to Paul for doing that. :thumbs:
OK, so, an explanation is required, I suppose.
Why not bodge? I thought it was sending out the wrong impression! This is, in one sense, a bodge of epic proportions, however it's been too long in the planning and far too much attention has been given to detail for it to qualify as such.
Why Wasaabi? Well, like it's name sake (there's a pun in there too, for the observant: sake ;)) it's Japanese and Spicy. However, it's Saab engined, so... Wasaabi :thumbs:
Why Eleanor May? Well, without being overly emotional about these thing, we lost our daughter 7 months into the pregnancy, and Eleanor May was her name. It's a way to keep her name ever present. :)
This arrived this morning :D
http://i16.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/f3/d4/f9a5_1.JPG (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=130245684138&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=003)
and I had a call to say that there is a great pile of steel in the garage! :thumbs:
OK, after much soul searching, and a poll here: linky here (http://www.sxoc.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?t=367669), I have decided to go two seater, for a number of reasons.
I won't need a new rack
I'd like to be able to talk to the (possibly inexperienced) person who might be taking my car out.
I'd like to be able to recieve instruction / tuition.
It's another departure from what I originally set out to build.
There is a risk that trackday organisers may view them as rear seats - ie no passengers.
The driver will be further back, so safer in a frontal impact.
There will be marginally more space for the many things I may have ommitted (running pipe work and electrics though etc.) as well as for the bits and pieces I may want to take other than my passenger (tools, can of tyre weld etc.
I get to keep a tunnel, which is quite important structurally as it's effectively a second tube inside the chassis (radius of gyration.....) and helps combat torsion in the chassis.
I've convinced myself.....
LOVE the Spidey welding mask :D
I assume you have considered that this will more than likely need an SVA test upon completion? And all the associated radius edges and the like?
I assume you have considered that this will more than likely need an SVA test upon completion? And all the associated radius edges and the like?
Actually, it will need an IVA ;) which is planned to come into play Q2 next year. But yes, I'm fully aware of this. :)
GmasterT
25-08-2008, 22:58
Good work mate, been thinking about front mount saab engine for about four years now and intend to try and go ahead over winter. Word of warning, even the aero box is poo :wack:
Good work mate, been thinking about front mount saab engine for about four years now and intend to try and go ahead over winter. Word of warning, even the aero box is poo :wack:
Not quite true, as I understand it. :) There was a problem with something breaking in them. However, the car I bought, they guy broke his gear box, and Saab gave him a new one without the defect under warranty. So hopoefully I should be covered!
Hurrah - and my web server is back on line (so you can see pics...!) :D
GmasterT
27-08-2008, 00:14
ummm... abuse above 250bhp = deaduuuu Im afraid. The aero box is stronger than the normal ones but still a mild chedder to the dairylea counterparts. Next step is Vauxhall (as you have a 92+ car) which iirc a 6spd vaux box will bolt up as an option and more likey to get a better vaux set.
Remember its the torque that'll kill it, Im resorting to R154 on mine :) (obviously wont work the same as yours :wack: !)
ummm... abuse above 250bhp = deaduuuu Im afraid. The aero box is stronger than the normal ones but still a mild chedder to the dairylea counterparts. Next step is Vauxhall (as you have a 92+ car) which iirc a 6spd vaux box will bolt up as an option and more likey to get a better vaux set.
Remember its the torque that'll kill it, Im resorting to R154 on mine :) (obviously wont work the same as yours :wack: !)
Really? Hmm, OK. I'm sure there's folk out there running big power on stock boxes. Some thinking to do then! Any idea how a GM FWD box would fit with the saab drive shafts?
BeerBringer
27-08-2008, 09:27
There are tuning companies in Sweden that strengthen SAAB gear boxes.
Ask at www.saabturboclub.com they hava a international part of there forum.
About SAAB engine in a FR aplication: It will be VERY interesting to see if you can get it to fit under the bonnet. SAAB engines are very tall...
The cost of SR20's in Sweden is stupidly high. SAAB engine conversion totaly makes sence here!
There are tuning companies in Sweden that strengthen SAAB gear boxes.
Ask at www.saabturboclub.com they hava a international part of there forum.
About SAAB engine in a FR aplication: It will be VERY interesting to see if you can get it to fit under the bonnet. SAAB engines are very tall...
The cost of SR20's in Sweden is stupidly high. SAAB engine conversion totaly makes sence here!
No problem fitting it under the bonnet, as it's going in to boot ;) :p
But yes, a very tall engine. It's more that the block is very low - if that makes sense. The crank is right up inside the block. In that respect, it would be easy to plate across where the sump goes and dry sump it.
GmasterT
27-08-2008, 11:48
Really? Hmm, OK. I'm sure there's folk out there running big power on stock boxes. Some thinking to do then! Any idea how a GM FWD box would fit with the saab drive shafts?
Dunno, never really looked into strenghening the FWD box, never had that much power out of my 9k to warrant looking into it, plus it was never an aero, plus it was before anybody other than cold, blonde haired and white teeth types tuned them.
There are tuning companies in Sweden that strengthen SAAB gear boxes.
Ask at www.saabturboclub.com they hava a international part of there forum.
About SAAB engine in a FR aplication: It will be VERY interesting to see if you can get it to fit under the bonnet. SAAB engines are very tall...
The cost of SR20's in Sweden is stupidly high. SAAB engine conversion totaly makes sence here!
Dont want to highjack JN's thread, but I know they are tall. Either way, Im happy to cut holes in my bonnet :D I think one of the 900's run a shallower sump :)
Dont want to highjack JN's thread, but I know they are tall. Either way, Im happy to cut holes in my bonnet :D I think one of the 900's run a shallower sump :)
No problem :) It'll encourage me to get more pics of the project up!!
I thought the 900 had a totally different set up, with weird gearboxes fitten into sumps...
GmasterT
27-08-2008, 12:01
No problem :) It'll encourage me to get more pics of the project up!!
I thought the 900 had a totally different set up, with weird gearboxes fitten into sumps...
only the classic 900's, the GM ones are transverse like the 9000 :thumbs:
And I need my own encouragement! Will be actually going for it once I have the gearbox :)
Well, I ought to make an update, although I've no pics.
Progress report:
Decision to go two seat instead of three is now set in stone (as much as these things can be), and I am now the proud owner of a pair of K-Sport seats. VERY light (6.7kgs) - the lightest seats with comfort I've found.
The rear subby is out of the car. I took the hub and arms out as a whole unit on each side, and then took out the diff and rear prop as one. Then the subby. Interestingly, my subframe is different to the one I've been using to jig things up..... :eek:
The shell is just a shell now :( and I'm a bit sad. Poor thing is sitting up on four stands (I can lift the back with my own hands!!) Would love to sell it to a good home, but I suspect it's going to be scrapped.
With the seats, I've been doing some sizing up of things, and have marked out on the platform where I need clearances for wheels and also where the new mid engine will go, and where the "old" blulkhead used to be. I don't think that the driver is going to be as far forward as I hoped, as I'd like to retain a tunnel for strength, which pushes the seats out a little, meaning the pedals would be fouling where the wheel and rack sit. There is th optin though to put pedals where I want them, and then do clever things with push rods (as is the case with many LHD cars built for a RHD market)
calicagesracing
27-08-2008, 15:30
madness, madness, madness!!! i love it:D
best of luck with it:thumbs:
madness, madness, madness!!! i love it:D
best of luck with it:thumbs:
Thank you! :thumbs:
Founds these pics of my shell being ransacked.....
EDIT: note the excessive use of a lump hammer and cold chisel to remove the top of the fuel tank... :wack:
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02769%20(Medium).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02770%20(Medium).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02771%20(Medium).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02772%20(Medium).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02773%20(Medium).JPG
Ringburn
27-08-2008, 21:18
The escort didn't particularly enjoy the drive home with all that lot in there :D
Project sounds like it's progressing nicely, it will be amazing.
OK, the garage is getting a bit full now....
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02790%20(Medium).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02792%20(Medium).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02798%20(Medium).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02795%20(Medium).JPG
Right, not really my project, but the home where the SR20 went to, which is interesting anyway....
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/Photo-0038.jpg
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/Photo-0040.jpg
looking good as usual mate :), if not even more scary now,
is your old shell strait?? only if it is, then surely someone could make use of it, or at least bits of it
and do tell what car that engines now in. it looks very far forward from the bulkhead, or was that just to line up the gearstick??
looking good as usual mate :), if not even more scary now
LOL! Thanks! :D :thumbs:
is your old shell strait?? only if it is, then surely someone could make use of it, or at least bits of it
Yep - and up for grabs in the for sale section :nod:
and do tell what car that engines now in. it looks very far forward from the bulkhead, or was that just to line up the gearstick??
It's in an E30. Dunno about the engine location, the chap just sent some pics through. I'll ask him when he comes to collect the diff
thought it was an e30 when i saw the headlights but didnt want to say.
that will be an interesting drive :)
Ringburn
29-08-2008, 10:15
I'm guilty of the above (MASSIVE) pics.
The engine position is dictated by the sump position relative to the front cross member. Any further back and they would want to occupy the same place.
Having clearance to the bulkhead has the extra advantage og being able to remove the gearbox with some degree of ease, which wasn't the case with my last engine which only just squeezed in the engine bay and had to be lowered along with the front suspension and cross member to change the clutch etc. :annoyed:
anything to make a gearbox change easier is good by me lol.
the sr20 is nice aswell more due to the fact that it sits upright, makes a fair few things quite a bit easier
I'm guilty of the above (MASSIVE) pics.
The engine position is dictated by the sump position relative to the front cross member. Any further back and they would want to occupy the same place.
Having clearance to the bulkhead has the extra advantage og being able to remove the gearbox with some degree of ease, which wasn't the case with my last engine which only just squeezed in the engine bay and had to be lowered along with the front suspension and cross member to change the clutch etc. :annoyed:
Ah... spying on me? ;)
Yep - and up for grabs in the for sale section :nod:
In fact, it's here: http://www.sxoc.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?t=368519
Ringburn
29-08-2008, 10:36
Ah... spying on me? ;)
Just wanted to see who's making slower progress, you or me.
Definitely me.
Just wanted to see who's making slower progress, you or me.
Definitely me.
I dunno. You have an engine in your car. I don't even have a car....
Arse and pants....
Just remeasured, and something's not quite where it should be. The rear upper suspension mounts (the fore-most ones - ie not toe or camber) need to reside somewhere just inside the gear box on one side, and in the midst of the pulleys on the other. :smash:
Oh well, looks like I'll be widening the track by 35mm on each side :rolleyes: At least it'll be less likely to roll over....
OK, well, regardless of some niggles, here's some more progress pics:
I've mocked up the pedal box with the pedals on a piece of ply. It's close getting the steering column through, so the master cylinders are offset to the left. I'll then fab up the pedals to put them in the right place again. Did this to see where the seats are actually giong to be, and where my bulkhead will be. Right by the rack :thumbs:
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02801%20(Medium).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02802%20(Medium).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02805%20(Medium).JPG
The platform is starting to look more like a set of plans, which it should! The tunnel and edges are now marked up.
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02803%20(Medium).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02804%20(Medium).JPG
weirdly, here's the differences between the two subbies I have...
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02806%20(Medium).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02807%20(Medium).JPG
The subframe is gone - long live the jigs!
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02811%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02812%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02813%20(Small).JPG
Chriscooke
29-08-2008, 22:14
I really have no idea what im looking at:( looks good to me all the same:thumbs: Interesting build
I really have no idea what im looking at:( looks good to me all the same:thumbs: Interesting build
I can explain, if you like, or you can just look at the pictures - your call :D
Chriscooke
29-08-2008, 22:44
I can explain, if you like, or you can just look at the pictures - your call :D
If you could explain in very basic terms that would be good:nod: I'm guessing the board is the jig and you'll use that to get everything aligned then welded etc:confused:
If you could explain in very basic terms that would be good:nod: I'm guessing the board is the jig and you'll use that to get everything aligned then welded etc:confused:
Not far off. The board is my life sized plan, and the jigs are bolted to that, to make, i suppose, an uber-jig :wack:
The jigs in the most recent post were made by bolting in steel tube to the subframe suspension pickup points, welding the points together, and then removing the job from the subframe, having bolted them down to the board.
Hey presto - I have an effective mould or template that allows me to recreate the key points in my own chassis - far preferable to just bolting in a stock subframe.
Up front there is a bit of both, there are stock components, welded together when they were in the car, and also jigs for the tops of the turrets welded to these. From this I can then make the inverse on the board - a jig for the lower points and the new topmounts, and then using the jogs for the lower points, I can make the new points in the new chassis.
Daa Daaaa! New car :D (if only.... :rolleyes:)
Chriscooke
29-08-2008, 22:55
Cheers for that i'm a little bit more clued up now:nod: well as much as i'll ever be:wack: Got to be said you know what your doing:eek: Sounds like a difficult yet rewarding project:thumbs:
Just realised i've missed half the thread didn't realise that you had got so much done, how long do you think the entire project will take?
Got to be said you know what your doing:eek:
LOL! Don't be fooled by long words and photographs. I haven't really got a clue - ewll,maybe a bit, but more patience, and an even more patient missus! :D
how long do you think the entire project will take?
Well, I think the devil will be in the detail. I've given myself until summer 2010 to have it on the road. A rolling chassis will be a small part of it.....
I have to make body panels :eek:
Chriscooke
29-08-2008, 23:19
Ha ha, prob a good idea to take your time with it with the abuse you will be giving it:nod: Although i do get the feeling from some of your other posts that you may get a little annoyed with the lack of track time over the next year and a bit:) Will be watching with interest and hopefully i may learn something also:)
Right - started on the top mounts, which are oddly one off the more annoying bits to make:
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02821%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02822%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02823%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02824%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02829%20(Small).JPG
I've wound the struts down as far as they will go, and am taking this as a starting point, with very minimal ground clearance, to give me the lowest profile on the body. From there I can wind them out a bit as necessary. It's really reqrding to see this, although it doesn't look like much, I'm just starting to see what I've been doodling actually coming to life!
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02825%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02826%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02827%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02828%20(Small).JPG
Oh, and back to the minor issue of the suspension mouns being a touch too narrow :o
Wider track, after much trigonometry. is the way to go. What you see here is the jigs welded into some frames, aligned on the grid that I drew out at the beginning (knew that would be a good idea for something!!)
Now it's fairly easy to move the jigs outward, keeping them square and moving them by the same amount.
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02831%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02832%20(Small).JPG
paulw1128
01-09-2008, 21:14
Loving the thread - looks like an incredible project.
I have to ask - are those structural buckets or are they purely for jigging purposes? :wack::D
are the buckets going to stay?:wack:
Chriscooke
01-09-2008, 21:17
Any more progress today mate seeing as you had a nice forced break from the board:D
Loving the thread - looks like an incredible project.
I have to ask - are those structural buckets or are they purely for jigging purposes? :wack::D
Just for jigging :nod: Hence the rapid / bodged approach. Some of the front end job is really bodged! Had to do it outside and it was windy, so no MIG. Arc welder to the rescue, but not with out popping a few holes :smash:
are the buckets going to stay?:wack:
Heh! They're to make the jigs visible - I'd be really hacked off if I tripped up over it and broke something! :(
Any more progress today mate seeing as you had a nice forced break from the board:D
Yup, was just thinking I should get the camera out of the garage.... :thumbs:
Chriscooke
01-09-2008, 21:29
Yup, was just thinking I should get the camera out of the garage.... :thumbs:
Well what you waiting for:whip:
Right - I'm on my first day of the week I've taken off work to get make some progress. Frustratingly I seemed to get repeatedly sidetracked by other things :whip:
Still, I did manage to have a big clean up, and more the entire platform down to the door, and to one side, which gives me better access to the garage, and a larger space between the platform and the rest of the workshop. Not very exciting though.....
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02833%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02834%20(Small).JPG
Oh, and I've gained some space by shoving more crap into the currently immobile Omega, and my spare set of standard alloys are under the S14. Basically, I dropped the shell down until it was touching four wheels, and then shoved axle stands under, and dropped it the rest of the way. The result is that the shell no longer looks like a shell, and the neighbours are happy :)
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02835%20(Small).JPG
With my new found space, I found a use for the dolly I had made for swinging the shell around on. It's a perfect engine trolley! This is great, as I can move the engine around, get dimensions, and shove it out of the way.
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02836%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02837%20(Small).JPG
Chriscooke
01-09-2008, 21:50
The s14 looks well low innit:wack: looks like you need a bigger garage tho:(
looks like you need a bigger garage tho:(
A bit more space is always good, but it's not an unreasonable size. It's over twice the length of a normal garage, but I do struggle with it being so narrow.:nod:
With engine far more accessible, I've now been able to mark out where things will lie, having removed the rear jigs. I can then put them back, widening the track to accomodate the transverse engine.
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02838%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02839%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02840%20(Small).JPG
Oh, and I started making the suspension brackets today :thumbs: These will be mounted on the jigs. The chassis will potentially warp whilst being welded up and so the brackets will be the last thing to be welded to the chassis.
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02843%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02844%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02841%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02842%20(Small).JPG
calicagesracing
02-09-2008, 09:51
yep, i'd imagine warping will be one of your biggest problems:annoyed:
(well mabey not biggest, but one of many problems!)
just try to have a good few bits going together and get small tacks on them, with some triangulation you shouldn't get warping when finish welding them
yep, i'd imagine warping will be one of your biggest problems:annoyed:
(well mabey not biggest, but one of many problems!)
just try to have a good few bits going together and get small tacks on them, with some triangulation you shouldn't get warping when finish welding them
Yeah, the plan is to jig all the geometry points, but not weld them. I'll build the rest of the cahssis, and at the very end, weld in the points, so that they are still square with each other. All things considered, the rest of the chassis geometry is not so critical.
Right - I got some channel made up: 40mmx40mm internal and 50mmx50mm internal, to make the rear suspension pick-up points. Unfortunately one of the 40mm arms on each side needs more space to move around in than the 40mmx40mm channel can provide whilst retaining enough steel between the hol ethat bolts through and the edge of the mount. Decided to use some 50mmx50mm with 10mm cut out and welded back together. It;'s 3mm thick, so out with the arc welder....
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02845%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02847%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02848%20(Small).JPG
And here's one I mullered to make sure the weld was strong enough (butt welds being what they are...
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02846%20(Small).JPG
I think they'll do :thumbs:
Chriscooke
02-09-2008, 16:58
Looks like some nice welding:thumbs:
It's a really good feeling to have all the rear mounts in place on the jigs. It's anotehr step closer to actually joining the bits together!
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02850%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02851%20(Small).JPG
Looks like some nice welding:thumbs:
Thanks! :)
(Pssst.... between you and me I'm quite please with it too.... :thumbs:)
Chriscooke
02-09-2008, 17:03
Guessing your using a mig welder rather than an arc:confused: Saying that i'm useless with both at the moment:wack:
Guessing your using a mig welder rather than an arc:confused: Saying that i'm useless with both at the moment:wack:
Both. The weldin gyou commented on was from an arc. Tried the Mig (on the one I beat for testing), but wasn't convinced after some tests on a piece of plate that I was getting the penetration. Arc welder did much better.
I struggle to get the amps down here in the garage, as there's quite a run of wiring from the point where it comes into the fuse board in the house to here, and you lose a surpising amount of amps over the run. I reckon that on 105 amps, I may be getting 75?
Chriscooke
02-09-2008, 17:18
We had the same problem so my old man upgraded the cable to the garage to 6mm stuff and set up a new ring main/ distribution board to sort it:nod:
OK, I've finished the second top mount. I really enjoyed making the first one, as the idea of knocking it up out of angle has been kicking around in my head for ages. The second one was more of a chore, but none the less it was really rewarding to have made two identical things. I don't knwo why, but that makes me feel good!
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02852%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02853%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02854%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02856%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02857%20(Small).JPG
It occurs to me that widening the track make smy stock ARBs redundant. Not sure if they can be extended, but it's a good opportunity to redesign them to fit the new chassis, rather than working with what I have. I may even look to make up some adjustable ARBs. The relief is that it's one less thing to worry about in the base chassis - makeing the pick-ups for the stock ARBs which as things stood, really didn't fit with where the other three main front points lie (arm, tension arm, top mount).
Widening the track makes for a bit more room in the driver's footwell, as wheel arch is moved outward, so that's nice :)
Right, lots to write about today. :D
Sick and tired of running out of comsumables, and paying through the nose for them from Halfrauds, I went shopping....
...for some Argoshield....
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02858%20(Small).JPG
...and this arrived too :thumbs:
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02875%20(Small).JPG
Right, thought I'd show some detail on how I jigged the front end. The jigs needed extending to include the tension arm pickups. So, two big 12mm washers, and some 12m internal diameter tube. Bolt it together.
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02859%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02861%20(Small).JPG
Measure it up to be sure that it's the right size for the point it's jigging
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02863%20(Small).JPG
Tack them together
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02864%20(Small).JPG
And I run a drill bit through it to clear out any penetration (as I had to wind the threaded bar out after welding
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02865%20(Small).JPG
Offer it up for a fit. Snug as a bug in a rug :thumbs:
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02866%20(Small).JPG
Here's the jig for the front arm pickup that is already in place
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02867%20(Small).JPG
Join them all together. Angle iron to the rescue!
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02868%20(Small).JPG
OK, the next step was to drop the turrets to a lower position. I've shortened the strut by a further 60mm from where it was one the car (already low), and so the turret has been moved down by 100mm to bring the suspension arm back to the angle it should be as stock. McPherson strut does slightly odd things when the arm starts operating at anything above horizontal, and the roll centre becomes harder to control.
So, given that the geometry, with a shorter strut, is closer to normal, the suspension points are moved vertically up by 30mm (hence it's all off the deck) and everything in the cabin is located at ground zero - 30mm below the bottom of where the cross member would be on an S14. The ultimate way to lower your car - leave all the suspension the same and litterally lower everying around the suspension. :thumbs:
Here you can see the top mount which I made jigged out by 100mm from the topmount jig built on the S14 carcass. I did this with 10mm threaded bar bolted either side of the jig and eitehr side of the fabricated topmount. Double checked with an engineering square, but nuts being what they are, things sit pretty square.
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02869%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02870%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02872%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02876%20(Small).JPG
Now, given the need to run wider track, I need to be able to split the front and move the components outward in two groups. The decision to grid out the board because "it might be handy" has turned out to be a real blessing, as it makes the moving around of things much easier.
I widened the base and strategically placed the pieces on lines on the grid, to enable re-alignment in a wider track.
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02877%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02878%20(Small).JPG
And then I joined the topmounts to the jig. For some reason I wasn't entirely happy with a piece that is part jig, part car, but then I wasn't going to make another jig for the newly located top mounts, and I didn;t want to hack up the original top mount jig uneccesarily.
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02879%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02881%20(Small).JPG
I then triangluated the "towers" to give them some strength for when everything else is removed and they have to stand on their own.
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02884%20(Small).JPG
And here's what happens when you have an itch on one arm and a wire brush in the other hand....
...and you happen to not be thinking about what you're doing.... :rolleyes:
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02882%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02883%20(Small).JPG
Anyway - back to the job in hand....
The original turret jig came away like a treat :thumbs:
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02885%20(Small).JPG
Removing the rest of the stock brackets, to leave the jigs, was a bit more of a hassle, as I wanted to leave the steering rack mounts where they are. I'm stuffed if I'm maing a new one of those! :whip:
Here's the classic "now I've sawn through it, the saw won't come back...."
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02886%20(Small).JPG
Free at last!
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02887%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02888%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02889%20(Small).JPG
It's funny - I think I'll miss the jigs I've used so far. I've become quite used to them.. :(
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02890%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02892%20(Small).JPG
It's also hideously dusty, so I've taken to wearing a mask most of the time, or else my chest feels hideous in the evening / morning.
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02893%20(Small).JPG
So, I finally got everything off the board, where it's been boltde down for so long and with terror that things might move and not be square. It's quite a relief to have got this far, where I have stiff jigs and a confidence that they'll go back to where I want them with no problems.
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02895%20(Small).JPG
And so it's time to put everying back on the board, moving it all outward by the same amount.
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02896%20(Small).JPG
The pieces of timber you can see to the rear are to mark out where the diff casing and tube support sit, so I can be sure they won't foul the chassis.
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02897%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02898%20(Small).JPG
I cannot tell you how much of a relief and uttery joy it was, to screw down all four jigs for the last time before building the chassis. I picked up the tape measure, offered up a prayer, and started measuring diagonals from opposing pairs of key points to common points down the centre line.
I think the furthest anything was out was about a mm. I really cannot believe it. I was prepared to be 5mm out over the length of the suspension geometry (a 0.25% tolerance), but 1mm is fantastic news. I wish I could say it was down to hard work and deep thinking (and trust me - there has been some of that), but God has really blessed this too. :nod: Too many things have worked out "just right" and "just in time" :thumbs:
I start actually building the chassis tomorrow!!!! :D :D :D
It's 6:30 am and I've been up for half an hour thinking about car things. It feelslike Christmas morning, when you know the presents are downstairs, but you're not allowed to open them until the rest of the family are up :smash: :smash:
I might have a cuppa.....
weiner_patrol
04-09-2008, 07:43
good luck with it mate...you are mad I have to say but hope it all turns out good for you :D
mad as a hatter:nod::D but you have to respect some one who has so much commitment :nod:
good luck:thumbs:
mad as a hatter:nod::D but you have to respect some one who has so much commitment :nod:
good luck:thumbs:
:D :thumbs:
OKey Dokey!
Today turned out to be a little disappointing.My Christmassy excitement soon dwindled when it dawned on me that there was something else I had to do first. I hadn't really given the front suspension pick-ups much thought. I suppose I had been engrossed in other aspects of the project, and kind of assumed I would sort out a solution before I needed one. I didn't :rolleyes:
In the back of my mind had been the thought of re-using the existing brackets, although that had been before I hacked the cross member in 3....:smash: Still, never one to give in, I looked at what options I had readily available, which as it turned out was of course the stock brackets.
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02899%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02901%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02900%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02902%20(Small).JPG
However, having hacked them to shape and offering them up, they just didn't look / feel right, and I felt I would be selling myself short by persuing this route. I'm a great believer that if something doesn't look right, it probably isn't. Of greatest concern is the tension arm mounts. The loading on these is extensive under braking and the have to be positioned is such a way as to handle the load and spread it through the chassis. It's either use the existing piece complete and compromise the chassis, or use the modified pice and compromise the integrity of the suspension.
So I sacked it off, and got on the phone to embankment engineering, who provided the folded 3mm plate for the rear pick ups. I must have been sounding desperate, as they agreed to have the parts ready for tomorrow afternoon.
It did give me an opportunity to crack on with some other bits though. I decided to make sure that the seating / pedal / steering arrangements are OK. Good job I did, the pedals were too low. I mounted the seat on a piece of board so that it didn't fall over every time I got out of it! :whip:
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02903%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02904%20(Small).JPG
Oh, a nice steering wheel arrived in the post. Donated by a very good friend! :thumbs:
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02905%20(Small).JPG
I should probably build the bulkhead out of something other than offcuts of timber.... :smash: :D
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02906%20(Small).JPG
I made the move to remove the parts of the rear jigs I had added to allow the tracking to be moved out and align the jigs, as they are in the way of where I need to put the lower chassis. It's a bit of a no return point (well, OK, I could weld bits back on again, but you get my point. If something catastophic happened, like I broke a jig, I'd be back to digging out a subframe and got back to the original track and working out again)
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02908%20(Small).JPG
And I bought some nice goggles that I can actually see out of (Bolle :thumbs:)
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02910%20(Small).JPG
And finally, I at last managed to get some chassis cut at the end of the day. Decided to knock it on the head at 9:30 in the evening :sleep:
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02911%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02912%20(Small).JPG
Right, some more pics.... Sorry to all you 56k connections :rolleyes: Not posted anything last night, 'cos I was out eating pizza... SO, to catch up!
The big metal tree like jig is now redundant, as are the bits of S14 that were welded together. Having tripped over them several times, I decided to hack them up and recycle the pieces....
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02913%20(Small).JPG
Embankment engineering came up trumps and had my folded sheet ready for me in the morning (rather than the afternoon as expected) and I scrounged a "useful" looking sheet of galvanised 1.5mm
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02914%20(Small).JPG
Despite concerns that they wouldn't be able to fold channel that was higher than it was wide, they did a great job.
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02915%20(Small).JPG
So, it's time to take one of these....
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02916%20(Small).JPG
and make my own...
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02917%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02918%20(Small).JPG
One of the most exciting parts so far has been laying out the lower chassis rail, and it looks like a car....!
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02919%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02920%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02921%20(Small).JPG
One great advantage of massively over engineering things is that when you realise you have to hack some bits of the jig you made, it's not a big deal :D
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02922%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02923%20(Small).JPG
Time to make the cross member brackets
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02924%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02925%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02926%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02927%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02928%20(Small).JPG
Making up the many pieces was a bit dull and time consuming.
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02930%20(Small).JPG
But worth it...
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02931%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02932%20(Small).JPG
And finally tonight I tacked the lower chassis together!
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02933%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02934%20(Small).JPG
:thumbs: :D
Today was my last day of serious work for a while, as I'm back to work now, so it's just bits here and there. it doesn't do to get home at 7pm and get the chopsaw out! Weekends only now until the metal work is complete, and then the more neighbour friendly jobs of wiring etc start.
Had a bit of a mare today. On a positive, I fitted the roll hoop. For this I used my roll cage from the Nissan. I hacked off the rear supports and the brackets to leave just the hoop. I will use the larger supports, but in different places. I also jacked the platform up on axle stands and cut out the platform in the engine bay to allow the engine to be trial fitted. This was not such a good idea, as the platform has lost a little of it's integrity, but I can reinforce it, so no biggy. Removing the platform was also, as it happens, unnecessary as the car is so low, with 4" clearance underneath and the need to not compromise the diffuser, the engine actually won't protrude underneath the chassis. That's the danger of ploughing ahead with expectations of where you want to be, and the blessing is that other things in life pull you away and you can reflect on it! So in short, I need to put the platform back in the rear and reinforce it.
The good news is that having trial fitted the engine, and thinking it wouldn't fit, given the actual location of it, with no sump protruding, it will fit. Phew! The bad news is that in moving the engine around, I clattered the rear jigs quite heavily, so much remeasuring and validation is required to ensure that things aren't thrown out. Arse! Having said that, I would have had to do that anyway just before I weld the mounting points to the chassis. I'm torn between waiting until the chassis has been fully welded, which involves lifting the tack welded complete chassis from the platform, fully welding it (needing space for the platform AND the chassis) and then dropping it back over the jigs and then welding up the points, or tack welding the entire chassis and then welding the points on which will ensure they spend as little time "at risk", but the chassis may distort during full welding. The halfway house, I think, is to tack weld the chassis entirely, and then fully weld as much as possible with it in situ. Then weld the points, and then ditch the platform and fully weld the bit's I couldn't access with it on the platform.
More pics (although for some reason they're not really very good quality)...
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02936%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02937%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02938%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02939%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02940%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02941%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02942%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02943%20(Small).JPG
:clap::notworthy
fair play mate.
dougal200
07-09-2008, 21:33
looks like a very different project, i have been following for some time now admittidly with a bit of confusion but it seems to be coming together nicely.
i built my own chassis a few years ago in a very similar fasion ( like a caterham) so i understand exactly what you are going through and i would advise you to weld as much on the jig first then place the brackets and the finish off the jig.
i dont know if i have misread/missed but what shell will you be using (existing s14?)
PS if you want to not spent a huge amount of time with a grinder try to avoid round tube as the fishmouths take forever to get right.
keep up the good work
wow. really starting to come together now mate. i know it couldnt be further away from the car on the road again but seing the shape and beginning to get the suspension together really must be a posative step for you.
i see a lot of the builds on here and think that i would be able with the same funding to be able to attempt most of them but this is one that i can safely say i would not even think of trying,
ive thought of making a car from scratch in the past (more of a go cart than a car) but it would have been nothing to the scale of your work,
very very impressed and i really cant wait to see the car rolling on 4 wheels again
Thanks guys. Patience really is the name of the game. That and being prepared to look at what you've done and say "that's not quite right" and go away and rethink. There are a myriad of minor issues, and for me being inherantly impatient, the challenge is to stop and work out the best solution to the niggle dispite the urge to ignore it, do something else more interesting, or fudge something. :rolleyes:
Last night it became clear that the engine doesn't fit :whip:, but nothing too hideous, the sump fouls the engine bay on one side. Losing about 10mm will see it clear, 25mm and it'll be very comfortable. Fortunately the crank is right up in side the block, so the sump houses nothign but oil. I can take a cut out of the side of the sump and get it rewelded (not quite ready to try ally welding myself!)
It's a blessing really, as it's an opportunity to take a smidge off the bottom of the sump too so that the engine can sit a little lower. :thumbs:
The good news is that it doesn't really interfere with the building of the chassis. The engine bay can be completed, as dropping the engine a touch will only give more clearance above. That's the main reason for dropping the engine over the chassis at this stage, aside from a trial fitmaent to the lower chassis, it's to let me build the chassis around the engine.
The top half of the engine bay will be removable. Imagine a line from the highest, foremost point, running diagonally backward to the lowest rearmost point of the engine bay. This will define the top and bottom halves of the bay, with the top half being like a cage that covers the engine, and which can be unbolted to allow the engine to be removed by lifting it 6 inches and rolling the car forward. :thumbs:
get yourself a copy of classic ford mate if you havent already. they are fitting the 2.3 turbo saab engine to a mk2 escort and have had to do the sump modifications you speak of. :)
get yourself a copy of classic ford mate if you havent already. they are fitting the 2.3 turbo saab engine to a mk2 escort and have had to do the sump modifications you speak of. :)
It's probably the same conversion that's being done in PPC, which I am following closely :thumbs:
hang on i think i got my mags the wrong way round, i meant ppc lol. my bad,
i love the look of that saab engine, and 2.3 is a massive bonus too
Did a little bit more today :smash:
Built the chassis up to take in the rear toe arms and started to locate the other upper suspension points.
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Wasaabi/DSC02944%20(Medium).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Wasaabi/DSC02946%20(Medium).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Wasaabi/DSC02947%20(Medium).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/Wasaabi/DSC02948%20(Medium).JPG
Fair fricking play man:notworthy only just spotted this after seing your sig!
You have balls to do this in your garage at home, i wouldnt even attempt it at my workshop!!
Going to be following this one!!!
Maybe, possably the best DIY project iv seen, hats off to you:clap:
Fair fricking play man:notworthy only just spotted this after seing your sig!
You have balls to do this in your garage at home, i wouldnt even attempt it at my workshop!!
Going to be following this one!!!
Maybe, possably the best DIY project iv seen, hats off to you:clap:
Thanks. :) Well, we'll see what it drives like when it's built - the proof being in the pudding and all that! I think there's going to be some serious fine tuning once it's built. Widening the track by what turned out to be 100mm :eek: on each side will have thrown Akerman out, not to mention making it a little tail happy :smash:
just out of interest. you have gone to massive lengths to make this car better than the s14, but then you have just put a FWD engine set up in the rear putting all the weight right at the back.
and we all know how an MR2 can handle (well but once the tail has gone its like a spinning top). and that is basically what you have started to create, albeit a bit longer wheelbase.
why didnt you go for a mid mounted set up rather than a rear set up with a transverse box, sitting the engine directly in the middle of the car,
i saw a polo being built years go (there site no longer works) and the engine was exactly between the wheels, and they used a V8 from an audi allong with box. not sure what one but it was a brilliant desighn. (not that yours isnt)
whats your reasoning for this choice of engine position and not to go with the origional engine and box set up.
It's still technically mid engined as opposed to rear engined. The entire engine is infront of the rear axle, unlike, for example a 911, or Hillman Imp :wack:, which hang the engine behind the rear axle. The engine is just transverse. But I take your point.
Had an MR2, and thought it was a cracking motor, but underpowered. I like the whole elise / vx220 thing too.
It seemed like an interesting challenge. :smash: I did consider using a transaxle box, but there simply isn't room. The driver position is as far forward as it can go and things are still a little tight.
nice thoughts mate and i can see you have put plenty of that into your ideas :)
really looking forward to seeing what you come up with. should be in go cart style teratory :nod:
So, the engine fits. Nice and snug. Considering squeezing it further forward though, but this will mean that the drive shafts don't sit straight. I'm not sure how much angle I can get away with though. There's also the "minor" issue of where the alternator is going to go. Hmm... maybe I could get an electric one onstead of a belt driven one... :wack: ;)
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02949%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02950%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02951%20(Small).JPG
The tunnel is in, and it's actually starting to look like a car! :thumbs:
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02952%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02953%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02954%20(Small).JPG
Some of the pieces that are cut are quite difficult to work out, so I tack a piece of tube in the line of where the final piece will got, and then measure from each corner to size up....
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02955%20(Small).JPG
And finally the last rear pick-ups are located on the chassis
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02956%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02957%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02959%20(Small).JPG
Hiya JN, big respect again!
Space frames coming together well now :clap:
most cars have some 'angle' to teh drive shafts and dont suffer big worries, although traditional thinking is to keep them straight and level at std ride height ideally. i suspect the Saab shafts will be pretty tough though, so unless you are gonna be running huge power and drag-slick launches i doubt id worry.
on the hillclimbers, getting the anti-tramp settings and damper rebound will make a big difference to reducing the chances of driveshaft breakages too. tramp causes massive shocks to the trans line.
as for the alternator, can you not mount it elsewhere via a longer belt? look at pics of race engines, especially Vs and anything TVR have done (:rolleyes:) and they are a right hodge-podge serpentine mess!
alternatively if you have a reasonable size battery and not a race battery, you can drive the alternator off the output flange from the diff/driveshafts. most single seaters and sports racers do this if they need an alternator (formula fords and most short race single seaters dont bother) and it has the added advantage of consuming less engine bhp to drive it due to the gearing. disadvanatges are that it only charges when your moving but it doubt you want to sit in it idling with the lights on do you :thumbs:
There are some "interesting" shaped joints where multiple tubes come together at one point. Like this....
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02961%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02962%20(Small).JPG
I ran out of steel :cry: Which means things may be a little heavier than expected. I've used 54m of steel :eek:, athough there's probably about 3m or 4m in unusable off cuts and metal dust! Out of interest I weight a piece of the tube, and it turns out to be a smidge over 1kg / m. I think I need about another 12m of tube, which makes maybe 65m of steel in the chassis = 65kgs, plus the roll hoop at about 10kgs. So 75kgs for the bare chassis with no suspension components. All in all I don't think that's too bad though.
A westy race chassis weighs in at 45kgs bare, and the locost book chassis at about 65kgs. Even if I come in at 85kgs, that's only 20ks over the locost, and in the grand scheme of things, 20kgs in a 600kg car, for the sakes of being sure it's got all the strength in the right places, I'm happy. :thumbs:
Having no more steel, I had to mock up the rest of the front end, but it was a good opportunity to sit back and experiment which where to put the joints. All those pieces from the jig came in handy! :thumbs:
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02963%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02964%20(Small).JPG
most cars have some 'angle' to teh drive shafts and dont suffer big worries, although traditional thinking is to keep them straight and level at std ride height ideally.
How much angle do you reckon I can get away with?
GmasterT
13-09-2008, 23:03
Mate, the angle should be fine, esp with the straight section on the longer shaft ;)
The shafts will be fine too, the gearbox is the weakest point remember :D :wack:
Also, you keeping the hubs? 4x108 remember :)
Mate, the angle should be fine, esp with the straight section on the longer shaft ;)
Cool, there's enough space in the engine bay that if it becomes a problem, I can shift the engine back a bit then.
The shafts will be fine too, the gearbox is the weakest point remember :D :wack:
Reckon I'll use the box till it breaks. Been on some Saab forums, and 300 - 350 is not un reasonable. In the words of Dolph Lundgren in Rocky IV - "If he dies, he dies..". I'll then start looking at 6 speed Vectra boxes :whip:
Also, you keeping the hubs? 4x108 remember :)
No, I'm using the S14 hubs, front and rear - hence the multi link suspension at the back :) There's an interesting challenge to over come yet, and find some where that will machine me up some shafts to go from the inboard Saab CV joints to the S14 outboard CVs :smash:
GmasterT
15-09-2008, 11:52
:thumbs:
remember that 300-350 with instant light up wheelspin, yours will have all the weight and more grip :)
And dunno how youre doing the gearchange, but the rubber thing is massive gay :nod: :wack:
:thumbs:
And dunno how youre doing the gearchange, but the rubber thing is massive gay :nod: :wack:
:D
Gear change is going to be an interesting problem to fix :nod:, as the selector is currently sticking out near where the rear bumper will be :wack:
Clever cable aarrangement will be the solution :thumbs:
How much angle do you reckon I can get away with?
im not a clever engineer-type to tell you mate, but essentially the greater the angles the more likelihood of CV failures, especially during tramp. luckily FWD setups tend to have bigger and better joints to cope with steering angles as well as suspension deflection during bump and rebound. if you are going to run large rolling radius tyres/wheels, that wont help if you have the engine and trans mounted low in the chassis, hence most circuit cars using small rolling radius 13"/15" tyres and rims. if it looks excessive, it probably is :thumbs:
most of the hillclimbing guys that run Elises (fwd rover box and shafts) dont seem to suffer problems even with mega sticky slicks, and 250hp from super/turbo charging, so if rover can manage it, im sure the saab stuff will suffice in terms of strength.
GmasterT
15-09-2008, 14:47
im not a clever engineer-type to tell you mate, but essentially the greater the angles the more likelihood of CV failures, especially during tramp. luckily FWD setups tend to have bigger and better joints to cope with steering angles as well as suspension deflection during bump and rebound. if you are going to run large rolling radius tyres/wheels, that wont help if you have the engine and trans mounted low in the chassis, hence most circuit cars using small rolling radius 13"/15" tyres and rims. if it looks excessive, it probably is :thumbs:
most of the hillclimbing guys that run Elises (fwd rover box and shafts) dont seem to suffer problems even with mega sticky slicks, and 250hp from super/turbo charging, so if rover can manage it, im sure the saab stuff will suffice in terms of strength.
agreed, the saab stuff is tres bien cool with power, designed when saabs were engineered to goodness, not too a budget (they just forgot about the gearbox :wack: ) :thumbs:
How much angle do you reckon I can get away with?
Hi. Just read your thread, really good read. I designed and manufactured a chassis for a formula student car two years ago so really interested in this. Was told by someone who really knows what their talking about that the rule of thumb for this angle is 7 degrees max.
Not sure if anyone has suggested them to you but I found the books by Carroll Smith a massive help:
http://www.gprdirect.com/OnlineShop/Summary.do?c=254
Tune, Engineer and Prepare to win are all really good. Best of luck with the build!!!!
Hi. Just read your thread, really good read. I designed and manufactured a chassis for a formula student car two years ago so really interested in this. Was told by someone who really knows what their talking about that the rule of thumb for this angle is 7 degrees max.
Not sure if anyone has suggested them to you but I found the books by Carroll Smith a massive help:
http://www.gprdirect.com/OnlineShop/Summary.do?c=254
Tune, Engineer and Prepare to win are all really good. Best of luck with the build!!!!
Nice one :thumbs:
I just ordered Engineer to Win, and Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners and Plumbing!
The long winter evenings will fly by :wack: :D
Tricky-Ricky
16-09-2008, 10:53
You probably know this already,and haven't finished, but to me some of the areas look like they will need some triangulation in order to give it some stiffness.
You probably know this already,and haven't finished, but to me some of the areas look like they will need some triangulation in order to give it some stiffness.
Not every area needs to be triangulated with secondaries, and certainly not with the same thickness steel as the primaries :no:
But yes, there are areas that need secondaries ,particularly the sides. These cannot be put in yet though, as the entire chassis is tack welded first to give is some strength in structure prior to full welding which will introduce some distortion. The chassis needs to be fully welded before I put the secondaries in, as the secondaries themselves will obscure welds on the primaries :)
Tricky-Ricky
16-09-2008, 12:23
Ahh right, thought you probably had it covered, was going to mention about being tacked and distortion, do you think the distortion factor will be lees due to most of the structure being already formed before final welding?
do you think the distortion factor will be lees due to most of the structure being already formed before final welding?
That is certinly my expectation. Additionally, although the suspension pickups are jigged, they are not welded at all, and won't be until all the full welding (that can be accessed with the chassis on the platform) is competed, so the geometry will still be true. If the points are all correct relative to each other, it should matter very little what distortion there is in the chassis, expect for minor deltas between left and right in how the chassis behaves under load.
All in all, having discussed this with, and shown pictures of my efforts on, the locost builders forum, the consensus is that there are a lot worse built cars on the road :nod:
If anything, it is over engineered, particularly around the fron McPerson struts, as it's an odd thing to spaceframe.
any slight chassis tweaks (and looking at the way you are doing things they will only be slight) can be taken out with a final corner weighting/geometry session anyway.
I have the fear.... :o
I widened the track by 100mm on each side, of a car that runs 9J wheels on S14 hubs with an ET+2.........
What if it doesn't fit in the garage?!
Or even worse....
....I can't get it out? :rolleyes:
silvia_200sx
16-09-2008, 21:23
You must of seen the program where the bloke built car in kitchen and had to have front part of his house knocked down to get it out.
Or the Mark Evans Kit Car program, where they had to lift car over house with crane.
er, when i modded my car with the Carlos Fandango wheels i found it was too wide for my trailer. Oh how i laughed:rolleyes: and to buy another trailer too
calicagesracing
17-09-2008, 08:57
er, when i modded my car with the Carlos Fandango wheels i found it was too wide for my trailer. Oh how i laughed:rolleyes: and to buy another trailer too
yep, been there mate, had to cut and shut the trailer and add 8" into it:rolleyes:
It fits!!!!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :notworthy Praise Da Lord!!!! :D
http://www.sxoc.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?t=371874
Woohooo! The chassis is fully welded. Well, as far as it can be on the platform. :clap: :thumbs:
No pics, as it doesn't really look any different.
Will weld the suspension brackets on tomorrow, and then lift the entire chassis from the platform and weigh it.
My arm is knackered from gripping the welding gun ALL day, I've inhaled all kinds of crap, and I'm covered in burns... :whip:
Right - loads of pictures, but I can't be arsed to write about each one, but will answer any questions!
Briefly though, the highlights are getting the suspension brackets welded on, front and rear, and lifting the chassis off the board and getting it into the sushine, and then turning it over to eld the rest of it. The lowlights are realising that the steering rack needs to be located in a place where there is an intersection - good for strength, but not for accessing the bolts...:smash:
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02965%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02966%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02967%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02968%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02969%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02970%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02971%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02972%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02973%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02974%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02975%20(Small).JPG
And some more....
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02976%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02977%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02978%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02979%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02980%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02981%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02982%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02983%20(Small).JPG
And the last lot for the day
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02988%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02989%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02990%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02991%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02992%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02993%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02994%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02995%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02996%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02997%20(Small).JPG
Very good work :notworthy
Maybe its just the angle of the pics but to me it looks like your going to have front wheel clearance issuse with the two most outer sections on each front arch:confused:
Very good work :notworthy
Maybe its just the angle of the pics but to me it looks like your going to have front wheel clearance issuse with the two most outer sections on each front arch:confused:
well, I've yet to try and fit any front wheels yet, and I am prepared for the case where it needs to be reworked, but having measured up against the shell, I'm confident it'll be ok. the rearward ones are more of a worry, as the wheel potentially needs to pass under it. the front one runs from the outside of the top mount down to where the s14 chassis rail would be, so there's less concern there.
Time will tell though! :)
Chriscooke
21-09-2008, 17:14
It's really comming together mate:nod: Looks great:thumbs:
It's really comming together mate:nod: Looks great:thumbs:
Thanks Chris :thumbs:
Polo's comments kinda made me thought, and then you know it would have eaten away at me....
...so I got home from church "just got to go into the garage for 20 minute, babe...." didn't stop to wait for an answer :D
Am I as happy as a pig in his own excrement right now...? What do you think?
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02998%20(Medium).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC02999%20(Medium).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC03000%20(Medium).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC03001%20(Medium).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC03002%20(Medium).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC03003%20(Medium).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC03004%20(Medium).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC03005%20(Medium).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC03006%20(Medium).JPG
Chriscooke
21-09-2008, 20:28
Fair play, you know it makes sense, that would have of been bugging you all night else:wack: You need to make this a rolling chassi asap:D
Fair play, you know it makes sense, that would have of been bugging you all night else:wack: You need to make this a rolling chassi asap:D
Too right! Just got to finish the full welding of the bottom bits, and sort out the "issue" with the rack. Reckon I'm gonna tube it (you can see where I'm offering up some 2" tube (off cut from the roll hoop) and then the cutter). I'll then make some cunning pieces of 20mm square tupe that have a curve cut in one side, and put one on each side of the 2" tube.
Just found out that the missus will be out tonight. Time to get some wheels on this!!! :smash: :smash:
weiner_patrol
22-09-2008, 09:38
good luck mate :) as said you are mad but we all love you for it :D
good luck mate :) as said you are mad but we all love you for it :D
Your car in your sig appears to have a halo :thumbs:
Not so sure about your avatar though... :whip:
:D
weiner_patrol
22-09-2008, 09:51
lol that was a quick 5-10 minute paint job i did on a base car. If you mean the strip on the top of the picture I need it for reference later on when i go back to it which is why i kept it there (I am lazy).
Should I just change my sig to something like "Yours appears to be too small" or something along that line... :D
lol that was a quick 5-10 minute paint job i did on a base car. If you mean the strip on the top of the picture I need it for reference later on when i go back to it which is why i kept it there (I am lazy).
Should I just change my sig to something like "Yours appears to be too small" or something along that line... :D
LOL :)
weiner_patrol
22-09-2008, 10:08
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u213/weiner_patrol/toosmall.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u213/weiner_patrol/firecrotch.gif
Something like that?
Right! Too many eastern people setting their goolies on fire for my liking... :smash:
Enough! :whip:
Did more welding tonight - if I'm honest, it's getting a bit boring :sleep: there's so much! Just when you think your on top of it, you look at it from another angle and unveil more :rolleyes:
Still, not too much more now. Should finish it tomorrow evening. :smash: Then I can get onto the serious issue of making my chassis a rolling chassis, the first step of which is to fit the steering rack mounting. I've made so much for that car, that I feel like I out to make this, but it's not the simplest thing in the world, and as I have one there already....
Once it's on four wheels, there's the challenge of the rear shocker / strut units. Unlike the front McPhersons, these don't form part of the geometry, and so the alignment of them is not as critical. My current thinking is to look at using a push rod and bell crank to allow them to be used horizontally - lowering their CofG and putting their weight further forward. It would also preserve what lines of the car are there are such, and will require less "extra" chassis to be put in.
Awesome work again! Will be good to see it coming together.
Legendary work JN. Is that up there the finished article or are there still bits of jig attached that will be taken opff once its all bolted together?? :confused:
Legendary work JN. Is that up there the finished article or are there still bits of jig attached that will be taken opff once its all bolted together?? :confused:
Nope - all the jigs are off. :thumbs: Gonna try and get wheels on it tonight! :D Just got to sort the steering rack out. I've changed my mind about cutting holes in the frame for access to the bolts for the rack clamps.
Instead I'm going to weld a piece of angle onto each end of the rack mounting to present a horizontal flat piece to the chassis. This will mate up to another piece of angle wirrored in the chassis itself. The chassis pieces will have nuts welded underneath, allowing the rack mounting to be bolted through from above. The rack mount itself will have slots rather than holes.
This way I can tune the steering rack position: shims will elevate it, and the slots allow longitudinal movement / adjustment. Additionally, it fits with one of my over riding objectives that as little as possible (nothing?) should require access under the car. The more that can be done without jacks the better :thumbs:
Awesome work again! Will be good to see it coming together.
Thank you :) I really appreciate the encouragement, as it's not all "glory days", there's lots of boring and sometimes disappointing bits too :nod:
park_monkey
24-09-2008, 16:24
this is such an interesting project, i would never have the patience to even do the research into this. good luck with the rest of it, i will be following your progress with interest. do you do things like this as your job and are you a qualified engineer or is it a hobby?
this is such an interesting project, i would never have the patience to even do the research into this. good luck with the rest of it, i will be following your progress with interest. do you do things like this as your job and are you a qualified engineer or is it a hobby?
Research...? ummmm..... :o
OK, maybe a bit ;)
Nope - I'm an IT consultant :rolleyes: All learnt and practiced in my own time :smash:
jacko_rs
24-09-2008, 17:14
seriously awesome work going on here.. cant wait for more updates! hats off to you mate.
razza987
25-09-2008, 22:13
Some of the best projects are by guys who aren't engineers or welders or technicians, because they spend all day doing that sort of stuff and don't really want to do it in their spare time :wack:
Best of luck with it, will be keeping a close eye on it from now on :thumbs:
Raz
Chriscooke
25-09-2008, 22:14
So are these wheels on yet:smash::D
Some of the best projects are by guys who aren't engineers or welders or technicians, because they spend all day doing that sort of stuff and don't really want to do it in their spare time :wack:
Best of luck with it, will be keeping a close eye on it from now on :thumbs:
Raz
Thanks! :thumbs:
So are these wheels on yet:smash::D
Ummm.... no :o
I have started "solving" the steering rack problem though. I've now decide to hold fire on the rack, and get the wheels on, to be sure that the rack is infact going to clear everything.
I'll have a start this evening, but certainly by tomorrow there should be wheels on it.
I need to get shot of the shell on my drive too.....
Nothing to add, just huge respect and words of encouragement from a silent observer.
Sterling stuff dude, keep at it :)
Si
Well, a sad but exciting day. The shell finally went. I hung onto it for as long as I could, but it really had to go, and I wanted my drive back. Managed to get a few last pics of me posing with what was left of the carcass...
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC03009%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC03010%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC03011%20(Small).JPG
And the missus doing some kind of bullfighting thing.... :wack:
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC03012%20(Small).JPG
Don't ask - I don't understand it either.....
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC03013%20(Small).JPG
Then this chap arrived....
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC03017%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC03019%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC03021%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC03022%20(Small).JPG
...and he did this!
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/N4Eb5SdCPew"> </param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/N4Eb5SdCPew" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"> </embed> </object>
...bye bye..... :cry:
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/38hYyXmhMSs"> </param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/38hYyXmhMSs" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"> </embed> </object>
i always fancied building a lowcost lotus seven rep but decided to change my sx instead, im a fabricator/sheet metal worker and would not fancy doing what your doing, so a big:notworthy, also are you doing any body/flooring in steel if so have a look at this mig brazing wire, took me ages to find it this cheap http://www.thewelderswarehouse.com/Welding/copy_of_Mig_Brazing_Wire.html
i always fancied building a lowcost lotus seven rep but decided to change my sx instead, im a fabricator/sheet metal worker and would not fancy doing what your doing, so a big:notworthy, also are you doing any body/flooring in steel if so have a look at this mig brazing wire, took me ages to find it this cheap http://www.thewelderswarehouse.com/Welding/copy_of_Mig_Brazing_Wire.html
Yeah - interesting in brazing - supposed to be more flexible and yet still strong. Why for floors specifically?
I am planning on doing the floor from in front of the seat to the front bulkhead in 1.2mm steel plate plug welded onto the chassis, after painting with weld through primer.
Still, not all sadness today! :thumbs:
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC03030%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC03031%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC03032%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC03033%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC03034%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC03035%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC03036%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC03038%20(Small).JPG
pity you did not live by me i could have made you a floor of 1mm thk ns4 aluminium which could be bonded and rivated to the floor bars with a few extra box section ns4 stiffeners thrown in, also ns4 is a hard aluminium more ridgid than 1.2mm steel and so much lighter:nod:
http://www.smithmetal.com/downloads/5251.pdf can be mig welded [using aluminium wire]
:notworthy :clap:
That is all.
Chriscooke
27-09-2008, 18:14
That looks spot on:notworthy:notworthy:thumbs: Shame to see the s14 go off on the back of a truck tho:(
Well, it fits in the garage - but only just :wack:
I'll not be doing anything that requires a wheel taking of.... :rolleyes:
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC03041%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/DSC03042%20(Small).JPG
RSendout
27-09-2008, 19:34
This is coming along so quick, Ive been watching from the start and all I can say is fantastic work:notworthy
I would love to see this one day. What sort of thing are you going to be using for and where? If you are going to be anywhere near me I will make sure I come and say Hi:nod:
And tell me honestly.......have you sat in it making bruuuum bruuuuum noises yet?:D;)
And tell me honestly.......have you sat in it making bruuuum bruuuuum noises yet?:D;)
umm... yeah.... :o
It's really annoying that the front wheels are not linked, making it a nightmare to push around, so this morning I figured I would get on with sorting that out.
This meant getting the rack installed properly. As said in previous posts, I've kept the original S14 rack and the part of the cross member it mounts to. Rather than fabricate something new, I decided to use this part of the cross member. Problem is, I was going to weld it straight into the chassis, but that would have meant there was no access for the bolts for the clamps that hold the rack in place.
This is not necessarily a bad problem though, as it meant I had to rethink my options and come up with something which, as it happens, is even better. Using angle welded to the sides the mounting now bolts onto two other pieces of angle with captive nut welded on the back, which are then welded to the chassis. The beuty of this is that it means there is now nothing that requires access below the vehicle - ie no jacking up unless I actually want to remove a wheel. :thumbs: Pics should hopefully make it a little clearer! Additionally, I have th eoption of putting shims under the rack mounting, making the rack adjustable to deal with any bump steer. If necessary, I can machine the holes in the angle into slots to allow forward and backward adjustment too. :thumbs:
So, ready to attack the steering rack, I got sick of being covered in the crap that was clarted all over it, so decided to give it a clean. Then decided I should prime it. Then paint it.... A productive morning! The selection of colours are a bit odd, as I have various cans of paint kicking around that need using up!
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/vol2/DSC03043%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/vol2/DSC03044%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/vol2/DSC03045%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/vol2/DSC03046%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/vol2/DSC03047%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/vol2/DSC03048%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/vol2/DSC03049%20(Small).JPG
And some more pictures it wouldn't let me post :smash:
Oh, I also seem welded the hacked cross member to give it some more rigidity / structure.
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/vol2/DSC03050%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/vol2/DSC03051%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/vol2/DSC03052%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/vol2/DSC03053%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/vol2/DSC03054%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/vol2/DSC03055%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/vol2/DSC03056%20(Small).JPG
Thought I'd get the last bit finished and sprayed up so that it can sit over night ready for fitting tomorrow :smash:
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/vol2/DSC03085%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/vol2/DSC03086%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/vol2/DSC03087%20(Small).JPG
http://jesus-ninja.dyndns.org/wasaabi/vol2/DSC03088%20(Small).JPG
:notworthy.
That is all.
Thanks, Si :)
I guess I'm OK with the offset police - as I'm running ET+2 with 100mm extra track.
So I'm effectively ET +102 :wack: might need a flare.......:D
Thanks, Si :)
I guess I'm OK with the offset police - as I'm running ET+2 with 100mm extra track.
So I'm effectively ET +102 :wack: might need a flare.......:D
Wouldn't that be ET52 each side?
Wouldn't that be ET52 each side?
No - 'cos i widened each side by 100mm :thumbs:
200mm over all track increase :smash:
stevencolman1
28-09-2008, 21:35
just read all of this thread and all i can say is wow. i would love to have a go at something like this because i have just finished my level 3 hgv mechanic's course. think i will have a go at something small like a bike enginned go kart first tho.
truly inspiring!!!
:thumbs:
just read all of this thread and all i can say is wow. i would love to have a go at something like this because i have just finished my level 3 hgv mechanic's course. think i will have a go at something small like a bike enginned go kart first tho.
truly inspiring!!!
:thumbs:
Shouldn't you be building an HGV? :wack: :D
Seriously dude - just get stuck in. I remember one of my first project cars was a rotten Chevrolet Camaro I was rebuilding. A guy at a party said "Wow! I'd give anything to be doing what you're doing"
So I said "then go do it"
"I wouldn't know where to start"
"At the beginning, and if you're really stuck - ask someone who's been there before!"
he never did it as far as I'm aware.... :rolleyes:
The point being, just go and have a go - it's all I'm doing really. Much of it is researched, and more is dealt with on the spot, but I have never done anything like this before.
As the man once said "How do you eat an elephant? One steak at a time!" I have a plan of sorts. And as I move through it, things move into view that were previously a bit vague and hazy and make more sense when the boits before are done. For example I only recently really worked out how I would attach the steering rack, and I haven't a clue what the body work is going to look like!
Have a go! The one thing I can guarantee is that you will get things wrong, but if you are persistent you will solve the problems.
having said that, I'm a logn way from a finshed car, and it may be hideous to drive! :rolleyes: But most horrible to drive cars can be improved - so here's hoping! :D
stevencolman1
28-09-2008, 21:50
yea a spaceframed volvo race truck that would be cool :) :wack: i think i will take your advice and have a go as soon as the s13's run in and doing well as ive just rebuilt the engine, repaired all the rust, repaired damaged bodywork and re-spayed it too and 2 years ago i wouldn't have attemted anything like what i have just done.
top man :thumbs: :thumbs:
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.