Apex Performance Project Monster- update and pics

[bren]

We are undeway with bulding the Apex Performance S14 Monster. After 2 years of preperation we now finally in the stages of putting the car together :)

We are aiming for 700bhp and will be using the following parts:

Engine

Tomei Phase 4 engine


Piston: Tomei 2.2l 87mm
Con rod: Tomei forged H-beam
Crankshaft: Tomei forged full counter (91.0mm)
Camshaft inlet: 270 duration
Camshaft exhaust: 270 duration
Adj pully: Tomei aluminium in/ex
Headgasket: Tomei metal
Valve springs: Tomei B-Type
Solid pivot: Tomei
Valve guide: Tomei PBB
Rocker arm stopper: Tomei
Crank bearing: Nismo
Con rod bearing: Tomei
Con rod bolt: Tomei H Beam
Head bolt: Tomei reinforced stud
Crank cap bolt: Tomei reinforced stud
Oil pan: Tomei oversize
Spark plug: Denso iridium
Thermostat: Nismo


http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=27830&stc=1&d=1139403885

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=27831&stc=1&d=1139403896

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=27832&stc=1&d=1139403909

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=27833&stc=1&d=1139403940

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=27834&stc=1&d=1139403961

[bren]

Turbo

Greddy T78 turbo kit


T78 33D-17cm2 turbo
External wastegate
Tubular manifold
Downpipe
Pipes, mounts and fittings


http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=27836&stc=1&d=1139404253

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=27837&stc=1&d=1139404263

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=27839&stc=1&d=1139404359

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=27840&stc=1&d=1139404373

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=27841&stc=1&d=1139404385

[bren]

Intercooler

Greddy R-SPL HG Type 25


Core size 302x600x149mm


http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=27842&stc=1&d=1139404759

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=27843&stc=1&d=1139404769

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=27844&stc=1&d=1139404777

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=27845&stc=1&d=1139404784

[bren]

Gearbox

Quaiffe 6 speed sequential gearbox


Complete 6-speed dog engagement gearkit with 0.790 top gear
Straight cut, close ratio
6-speed gearkit has new, strengthened bearing case
Comprehensive kits - includes selectors and gear lever
Sequential gearchange
1st 2.76 2nd 1.961 3rd 1.533 4th 1.212 5th 1:1 6th 0.790


http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=27847&stc=1&d=1139404953

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=27848&stc=1&d=1139404980

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=27849&stc=1&d=1139404992

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=27850&stc=1&d=1139405000

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=27851&stc=1&d=1139405024

[bren]

We are still working through a lot of the minor details for the rest of the spec but these are the definates so far. We either have them, theyre already on order or theyre about to be ordered:


Motec management
Motec dash
OS Giken 2 way lsd set up specifically for our car
AP 356mm 6 pot front brakes
AP 330mm 4 pot rear brakes
Koyo alloy radiator with twin 12" electric fans
Apex Performance Aeroquip oil cooler kit
Apex Performance front and rear strut braces and under braces
Greddy 8 injector plenum ported and fitted with larger throttle body
Twin Bosch 044 fuel pumps
Twin SARD fuel pressure regulators
Whiteline/Apex Performance/Nismo uprated bush set

[bren]

Update:

The car is now partially stripped as its prepared for the cage install and get it ready for paint. The engine has been trial fitted to check clearance round the ABS pump etc.

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=29598&stc=1&d=1142267078

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=29599&stc=1&d=1142267078

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=29600&stc=1&d=1142267078

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=29601&stc=1&d=1142267078

[bren]

The shell has been chemically dipped to remove all paint, seam sealer, noise deaening etc. It was then taken over to a motorsport cage fabricator who seam welded EVERYTHING (like you have to see to believe), fitted a T45 cage with supports running through to the suspension turrets, cut the boot floor out and installed a flat plate to remove the spare wheel well and leave more room for a rear diffuser and basically made it necessary to be spider man to get in and out of the thing :wack:

They also installed the air jack mounting points. Thats going to be cool, push a button and the car shoots up in the air :cool:

The shell is ready for collection now and has been booked into a body shop who are just waiting for a dry day so they can go and collect. They need a dry day so the shell doesnt get covered in salt and rubbish on its way down. They will clean back the shell and primer it in 2k. Then its going down to Garys for the first fit :)

http://www.sxoc.co.uk/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=41152&stc=1&d=1168377295

http://www.sxoc.co.uk/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=41153&stc=1&d=1168377306

[Vin Petrol]

Have i missed something....hows come no one has posted on this thread? :confused:

Well impressed Bren, just goes to show what can be achieved when you have the knowledge and facilities to do something.

:thumbs:

[bren]

Its just been moved from our section. I meant to update with much more info and latest pics but..er...forgot :wack:

Ill get on it tommorrow :)

[Mark]

That turbo is stupid big, will it be worth using it below 6k :wack:

Bet Gary is gagging to get it on his rollers :wack:

[Dibley]

Indeedy more pics!!:thumbs:

[bren]

Full boost by 5.5k or so. But then a 10k rev limit kind of makes up for it :nod:

[Fake Ben Taylor]

Full boost by 5.5k or so. But then a 10k rev limit kind of makes up for it :nod:

10k limit:eek: :wack:

[CNHSS1]

that looks awesome, love the cage work and engine build. Bet the quaife wil be fantastic

[SkyJawa]

Does the lightbulb gearknob help the gearshift become a bit lighter? :D *groan* :wack: :p

[HighPsi]

im doing an engine rebuild and full shell respray in a similar fashion but im utterly jealous at your engine spec and the cage :notworthy

i need a cometic head gasket off you bren so im thinking of coming up to collect today maybe. maybe get a few more ideas for mine while im there!

[purplepower]

Is it out of paint yet Bren?

Reading this thread makes me get butterflies in my stomach :D :D

[Roger_Sausage]

Is it out of paint yet Bren?

Reading this thread makes me get butterflies in my stomach :D :D

Me too.......I'm moist!!! lol

This thing's gonna be suck a weapon when it's done! :sxoc:

[bren]

It has been etch primered, we cant paint it until its had a first build as I dont want the final finish damaging in any way during the build process.

The shell and all the parts are down at Garys at the moment, hes doing the build. Ill ask him to send me regular pictures and updates so I can stick them in here :)

[Stuymac]

:eek:

This is going to be one hell of a car - fastest 200 in the UK???

Is that turbo going to be drivable on track or is it going to be a drag machine?

[Coupe]

Will this be ready for Japfest Bren? Are you intending to run this on the track at Japfest or will you be in A.N.other?

[alexjj]

That will be so capable as a 200mph plus beast. 700 is well easy enough to do 200 - speaking of - what aero stuff you doing after?

[bren]

Big Tones will no doubt wipe the floor in a drag race as hes building a drag car but I doubt theres much road legal anywhere in the world that will be that much quicker round a race track when we take the silly size turbo off and replace it with something more sensible and with cams to suit :)

The T78 is going on purely because I shot my big mouth of about running 700bhp so now it has to run 700bhp :wack: Once its done that we plan on detuning it for response and maximum on track performance :)

[Stuymac]

The T78 is going on purely because I shot my big mouth of about running 700bhp so now it has to run 700bhp :wack: Once its done that we plan on detuning it for response and maximum on track performance :)

I love the Logic for this build :D

Good luck matey :thumbs:

[Actual_Ben_Taylor]

The T78 is going on purely because I shot my big mouth of about running 700bhp so now it has to run 700bhp :wack: Once its done that we plan on detuning it for response and maximum on track performance :)

Lol, just replace the T78 with a GT4088 should spool quicker and make more hp :)

[alexjj]

you MUST try a top speed run!!! whats the gearing/bhp work out to theoretical top speed for you?

[arry]

Looking impressive :thumbs:

One question - with regards parts, I see you've gone with the larger company tuning parts, are there going to be any of your own products used? :) I was looking at the intercooler for example, would you look to get your production guys to make you a one off cooler with those dimentions or is it just a case of it being quicker/easier to buy off the shelf and be done with it? Same goes with rad etc :)

[Sir Nodrick]

Thats gonna be fun in the wet!!!:wack:

I hate to be cheeky but what kind of mortgage would i need for such a project???? ;)

[alexjj]

Cost of engine alone?

[def]

Engine 10-12k, Gearbox 7-9k, Deathstar sized turbo 4k, those are the biggest spends but new trousers and pants for when the thing spooles up could catch up with any of the above.

Selotape to stick your face forward when your launching could be an idea.:D

Drag wheels should see you in the 10s but do you think there is a 9 in it?

I know its a track car and the track is more fun but you wil get more buisness draging it at the big events:thumbs:

[CrazySx]

you should defo drag it with that turbo.. wrinkle walls should see you off to a good grippy start ;) I think it will easily be in the 10's.. if not 9's :eek:

[bren]

It should see 200mph assuming it doesnt take off. Not sure my balls are big enough for that though.

Its not a development car, Im sick to death of using all my cars for testing products and finding failings and problems at track days thus completely ruining the event. This is my car, its not a test mule and Apex doesnt do own brand tried and tested 700bhp turbo kits, intercoolers, engines, clutches, diffs, gearboxes etc. By the time Ive fooked about getting a one off intercoolercooler sorted and tested it I might as well just buy one. Theres no way wed ever recoup any development costs.

Anything we do that is tried and tested and is suitable will be fitted but Im not cutting any corners with unproven parts.

I havent added up the price of the parts yet but its goig to come to big money. Its not so bad for me though as the majority of it is money tied up rather than dead as I get trade discount and save the vat :) Apexs overdraft is taking a hit though :cry:

The engine was £9k.

I will run it in drag with softer suspension and decent tyres but Ill have to stick a proper driver in it :)

Garys on the phone now, hes sent some pics so Ill stick them up in a minute.

[bren]

Doors trial fitted:

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42175&stc=1&d=1170943850


http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42177&stc=1&d=1170943880

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42173&stc=1&d=1170943866

Just started removing all eroneous plates and seeing how air jacks sit:

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42176&stc=1&d=1170943857

[200krisx]

:smitten: :smitten: I need those doors :)

[bren]

They look good dont they :)

[D1HKS]

What airjack system are you using, how difficult is it to fit and how much of a mortage would your average joe (ie me:D ) need to have it in his life? lol :wack:

[purplepower]

They are fecking cool that's what they are :cool:

Here they are in action on the Jun 350Z :notworthy

http://k43.pbase.com/g6/04/514204/2/72155695.3dgSCA0b.jpg

Bren, I don't suppose you know how much lighter the doors are over std items do you? They look very good quality!

[WideboyS14]

hmmmm those doors. droooolll.... for the air jacks to work, do you have to plug in an air line. or will you be carryin a cyclinder in the car?? ace project !

[JulesS14200]

Doors look cool but I wouldnt want them on a road car, imagine if someone hit you in the side, not much fun having carbon fibre shards embedded in you :cry:

[bren]

What airjack system are you using, how difficult is it to fit and how much of a mortage would your average joe (ie me:D ) need to have it in his life? lol :wack:

K Sport airjacks, Ive no idea how hard they are to plumb, we havent got that far yet :wack:

You do have to get custom tubes sorted to mount them in but we can supply after getting ours done :)

The air jacks use an air line that you plug into a socket mounted on the cars body work somewhere. Once the cars int he air you can release the air feed as the system has a one way valve to trap the pressure. You then have a button on the exterior of the vehicle that you press to drop the car back to the floor. We will get a specific panel mounted socket that we will most probably install into the front wing to take the socket and switch. We might use a petrol driven generator to power a compressor or even just get a pressurised air bottle as that should be sufficient for the work we will need to do.

Jules,

We will be lining the inside of door with something in case of that exact eventuality :nod:

[200krisx]

They look good dont they :)

"Good" doesn't even come close to how they look :D I dont even have a word in my vocab to describe them :rolleyes: :smitten: :cool:

[sroberts]

We will be lining the inside of door with something in case of that exact eventuality :nod:

Looking good bren :cool: are the doors all carbon or are they a fibreglass shell with the outer skin in carbon? Do you have a target weight for the car?

Si :)

[bren]

Fibreglass shell with carbon skin. Full carbon would be (even more) ott in terms of price.

No target weight, we are fitting the absolute minimal amount of kit so it will weigh what it weighs :)

[sroberts]

Fibreglass shell with carbon skin. Full carbon would be (even more) ott in terms of price.

No target weight, we are fitting the absolute minimal amount of kit so it will weigh what it weighs :)

:cool: But damn at least you could have got the full carbon doors :rolleyes: :D ;)

Are you going to run a full front to back undertray on the car?

Si :)

[bren]

We are planning on making the bottom of the car as smooth as possible but obviously have to work round enclosing box, exhaust etc and what effects that will have on various component temps.

[Mark]

Air jacks are sooooo cool :D

[Topper]

Car will be awesome :nod:

Hope your not painting the doors, they look amazing.

[bren]

We have bottom covers for the doors that make the top of the skits even accross the entire length of the car. Unecessary but bollocks, theyll look damm good. It will result in the bottom section of the doors being body colour so the top half only will be carbon :cool: Ill take the 2 kilo weigh penalty on the chin in return for the look.

We have this kit to fit:

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42179&stc=1&d=1170949488

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42180&stc=1&d=1170949496

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42181&stc=1&d=1170949504

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42182&stc=1&d=1170949512

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42183&stc=1&d=1170949521

[bren]

Check the last pic, thats the arch look Im wanting all round :cool: The kits plastic so should survive a few offs without shattering like fibreglass :)

The kit will be modified to suit our needs. I need to drop the front bumper down lower and add a splitter then get a custom made rear diffuser sorted along with covering as much of the under side as possible.

The bumper will be adapted to a quick release mechanism.

We will be running Seibon bonnet and boot lid to begin with. If, at a later date, Im feeling really flush then we might start again with the exterior and fit full carbon lightweight panels but i have to draw a line in the current development process and this is what we are going with for now.

[Actual_Ben_Taylor]

Nice, still my fave kit for the S14a :)

[bren]

Quite subtle isnt it :)

[200krisx]

I hate body kits :censored:








But this kit is nice and compliments the lines nicely :D

[Mark]

I love that kit much better than the 'Darth Vader' ones you see :nod:

[bren]

Trial dash fitting. Garys cut the ends off, theyll be filled and then the whole thing flocked.

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42185&stc=1&d=1170954941

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42186&stc=1&d=1170954959

[Actual_Ben_Taylor]

Before you flock the dash are you going to strip all the vinyl/foam off it?

[bren]

We werent planning on doing that, Ive no idea what the dash will be like under the foam and vinyl :no:

[Actual_Ben_Taylor]

It'll just be hard plastic underneath (seen it done on an s13 dash). Should save some weight and give a better finish (after some sanding and prep!)

[bren]

Ill mention it to Gary :)

[mohawk]

i cannot believe the size of that turbo!!!!:eek:

great car! cant wait to see it finished! im in love!:smitten: :smitten: :thumbs:

[def]

My mate gets custom ones built for the local rx7 guys I could ask him if he could do it on the 200.
Or do you have someone in mind?

That kits in my top 3 s14a kit list.

[cliffb75]

More pics of the interior and the cage please - love the techy stuff :ghey:

Good to see it all coming together though. Can't wait for a ride in it ;)

[Daniel san]

Coming along nicely fella. Surprised you're even fitting the dash back in....how come?

[Ken]

The Ings stuff is top quality, my front bumper is an excellent fit:nod:

[WideboyS14]

that kit looks ace!! and are those arches rolled in the pic?! thats maaaad. i luv it though! wish i had big enough wheels to roll my arches that much!!

lastly how much would one of those rear bumpers set me back??

[Richy_Boy]

:thumbs: nice job Bren... 10k rpm.. I swear, I'll piss my pants with joy if I hear that on full chat :nod:

Rich

[bren]

The dash doesnt weigh much and the spending has to stop somewhere so a carbon one will be some time off. I wasnt going to refit the dash at all but its needed for Time Attack and it will hide all the wiring. They look a mess when its all exposed and it will also give us somewhere to mount the fuse box, switches, clocks etc :)

We are retaining central locking as it will have to be alarmed for when we take the odd trip out, what with it being road legal :) Thats another reason to keep the dash, we can hide the alarm gubbings to some extent.

The lump is rated at 10k but I really hope we wont need to use that limit. I want to keep the revs down to more like 8500k rpm if at all possible for longevity and relaibility, another reason why the silly T78 will be going once we had had our fun and got some power figures. Unless it proves reaaaaalllly great fun in which case I might say bollocks to ultimate lap times and just go for the scary ride instead :wack:

Our Skyine is very fast, our S13 was faster, the S14 will have 200bhp on both of them and should come in at 100-150 kilo lighter than the S13 and a whopping great 350 kilo lighter than the Skyline :D

I cant get more pics of the cage myself as the shells now down at Garys but heres some I posted before:

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42214&stc=1&d=1171012353

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42215&stc=1&d=1171012365

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42216&stc=1&d=1171012381

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42217&stc=1&d=1171012389

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42218&stc=1&d=1171012403
[img]

[bren]

And the seam welding:

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42219&stc=1&d=1171012630

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42220&stc=1&d=1171012727

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42221&stc=1&d=1171012742

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42222&stc=1&d=1171012757

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42223&stc=1&d=1171012814

[*AB*]

looking good Bren.

[Daniel san]

Cool, that makes sense re the dash. Hope it goes as smooth as poss!

[sarefeet]

:clap: Keep the updates coming, this car is gona be awsome when its finnished. That cage looks the dogs danglies:eek:

[bren]

My mate gets custom ones built for the local rx7 guys I could ask him if he could do it on the 200.
Or do you have someone in mind?

That kits in my top 3 s14a kit list.

Sorry, just to check, we are talking dashboards here? Out of interest what are they made from and what sort of money?

[CHIEF]

Thought the rev limit on Type B springs was 8k, according to the Tomei website

[DR1FT3R]

chief's right bren the type b spring are designed for a rev limit of 8k the type c springs are for 10k but it doesn't look like they do them for the sr20det :(

[Topper]

Not going to be to easy to get in or out of that car :no: :D

[bren]

Tomei said a 10k limit, I assume they know what theyre doing :)

Topper,

I might have to lose a few Lbs ;)

[base-1]

I love it!

What size wheels/tyres and what final drive will you be running?

[bren]

18x9 front and 18x10 rear. Havent finalised all the tyre sizes yet but for legal use theyll be 265s on the back, not sure on the front.

[Deano19]

wow! looks awesome mate! good luck with the project! :sxoc: :thumbs:

[DR1FT3R]

whats next on the cards bren is gary trial fitting everything or is he fitting everything?

[Colwell]

Top stuff Bren :nod: I bet your slashing to get in it now after soo long waiting for it all to come together. As luck would have it, im at Gary's on monday so i can have a proper look :D

[bren]

Hes trial fitting everything, then it all comes back off.

[DR1FT3R]

decided on colour yet? i've always fancied a matt candy apple green mmmmm apples

[bren]

:eek: Yeah but its a secret ;)

[ex-ctr]

are you replacing the water pump or fitting a booster pump to help cool the monster:)

[def]

Sorry, just to check, we are talking dashboards here? Out of interest what are they made from and what sort of money?

Opps i ment Diffusers and i think carbon.

Couldnt you use the origanel dash as a mould and make it from fibre glass?

[DR1FT3R]

question is though def would hat be worth the hours of work? it wouldn't get any lighter really. you could use carbon fibre sheets instead and the original as a mould but they are expensive and you may save 1kg or so

[def]

question is though def would hat be worth the hours of work? it wouldn't get any lighter really. you could use carbon fibre sheets instead and the original as a mould but they are expensive and you may save 1kg or so


True but as Bren thought i was talking dash boards and seemed quite interested i thought that may be viable and lighter:)

[DR1FT3R]

true enough though :thumbs:

[bren]

Opps i ment Diffusers and i think carbon.

Couldnt you use the origanel dash as a mould and make it from fibre glass?

Im defo interested in a diffuser, I dont have anyone sorted to make one as yet.

[def]

Im defo interested in a diffuser, I dont have anyone sorted to make one as yet.

will take a few days but i will get back to you:thumbs:

[bren]

No probs.

[ian_t]

Cant wait to see it in action

[A14LN C]

FFS Bren, just saw this and boy does that look good!!!!! how long till its ready :D

[bren]

Looks like the primers shite and the shell has to be redipped and recoated :annoyed: :annoyed: :annoyed: :annoyed:

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42265&stc=1&d=1171052425

[Richy_Boy]

:rolleyes: arse. :indiff: It all looks a bit shiney unddr there, don't they have to etch into the metal to get it to dig in?

Rich

[necromancer]

bummer Bout the paint bren :(

but cant wait to see it running :thumbs:

[Matt_S]

I saw it today!

Blimey!

Thats a LOT of work gone on there - let alone what else remains to be done! :eek:

I take my hat off to you mate.

I was there as the pics were taken and the mails sent...

:(

[Ken]

Going to Garys on Monday, looking forward to seeing it:nod:

[Matt_S]

Im glad Im enjoying looking at it. Luckily enough I was fairly busy with mine whilst there - but If I HAD got bored, it was nice to know the climbing frame was there to please me :wack: LOL :D

[Nismo_Freak]

That car needs more tire, and more aero if you want to put it around the track.

I would build your own diffuser as the construction is absolute key to it's function. It has to be properly anchored to the car so building your own leaves the door open to mounting locations.

Under-tray is going to be necessary with those large front bumper openings. At least you'd need to run some sheet metal ducting to direct the air.

Construction of a air dam/duct behind the front bumper would be efficient to reduce drag on the front tires and provide sufficient cooling. Integrating it into the splitter would provide you with a good size area to brace it to the chassis so you can let it work for you.

The rear tire drag is something just about all S-chassis have to live with unless you want to fab some low angle deflectors along the sides of the chassis.

Be careful of where you divert your exhaust on a car with good downforce. If you dump the wastegate under the car it will spoil the pressure gradient under the car.

Feel free to PM me if you want some ideas.

[bren]

I just spoke to the paint guy. He saw the pics last night and was going to get onto his lad and kick his ass for not prepping the shell properly but says you can see the swirl marks on the metal that shows it was buffed down. Hes been onto his paint suppliers to find out whats happened and to see why the paint didnt take.

He took it squarly on the chin and insists the he will sort it without question. We shall see what happens, I feel a bit better now :)

[Mark]

I just spoke to the pant guy. He saw the pics last night and was going to get onto his lad and kick his ass for not prepping the shell properly but says you can see the swirl marks on the metal that shows it was buffed down. Hes been onto his paint suppliers to find out whats happened and to see why the paint didnt take.

He took it squarly on the chin and insists the he will sort it without question. We shall see what happens, I feel a bit better now :)

Good news but what have your pants got to do with it :confused:



:wack: :D

[Colwell]

That is a right pain in the arse Bren, nothing ever seems to happen smoothly when its to do with cars:(

Glad there gonna fix it properly though.

[bren]

At least he sucked it up :)

[Colwell]

:nod: Yeah, he must have felt sick after the call from you. Not to mention how sick you must have felt when you discovered the problem......

[George]

I just spoke to the pant guy. He saw the pics last night and was going to get onto his lad and kick his ass for not prepping the shell properly but says you can see the swirl marks on the metal that shows it was buffed down. Hes been onto his paint suppliers to find out whats happened and to see why the paint didnt take.

He took it squarly on the chin and insists the he will sort it without question. We shall see what happens, I feel a bit better now :)

Has the shell been through a phosphating solution? A lot of primers won't stick to phosphates, even etch primers can have problems. Most zinc galvaising primers seem to work for some reason.

[bren]

Phosphating?

On a happier note Chris spent all day yesterday cutting plates out and welding them in place :)

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42323&stc=1&d=1171105680

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42324&stc=1&d=1171105694

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42325&stc=1&d=1171105708

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42326&stc=1&d=1171105722

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42327&stc=1&d=1171105744

[bren]

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42328&stc=1&d=1171105977

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42329&stc=1&d=1171105992

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42330&stc=1&d=1171106018

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42331&stc=1&d=1171106037

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42332&stc=1&d=1171106068

[Pete C]

At least they don't have to worry about damaging the primer now :thumbs:

[bren]

There is that ;)

[Actual_Ben_Taylor]

Love it!!! :thumbs:

[bren]

That car needs more tire, and more aero if you want to put it around the track.

I would build your own diffuser as the construction is absolute key to it's function. It has to be properly anchored to the car so building your own leaves the door open to mounting locations.

Under-tray is going to be necessary with those large front bumper openings. At least you'd need to run some sheet metal ducting to direct the air.

Construction of a air dam/duct behind the front bumper would be efficient to reduce drag on the front tires and provide sufficient cooling. Integrating it into the splitter would provide you with a good size area to brace it to the chassis so you can let it work for you.

The rear tire drag is something just about all S-chassis have to live with unless you want to fab some low angle deflectors along the sides of the chassis.

Be careful of where you divert your exhaust on a car with good downforce. If you dump the wastegate under the car it will spoil the pressure gradient under the car.

Feel free to PM me if you want some ideas.

You mean seal the ends of the bumper to theres no air flow through them ot duct to force the air through the rad?

Regardong defelectors for the wheels, youre suggesting building little 'ramps' in front of the wheels at the back of the sills to sirect air down towards the floor?

[SM]

Arse with the paint, I didnt think it could be dipped now? as the cage would have to be drilled to drain it?

[Ari Vatanen]

looking good Bren:thumbs:

can't wait to see it blasting round a track :)

[bren]

There may be a way round it, Id need to speak to the dipping guys. The paint bloke seems confident he can get to the bottom of the problems and is insistant that he can and will sort it 100%. He has his paint supplier coming to see him to work together and find out whats gone wrong.

[George]

Phosphating?



Just a thought. I don't know how your shell was treated, but I expect it was stripped either with chemicals or caustic then the loose rust removed and dipped again in a phosphating bath. This is just conversion coating solution that turns any remaining oxides into something that will cling to the surface and not flake off like oxides do. There are tons of secret formulas out there, I use a Cortec product but it i basically the same principle as the Jenolite that you will have in your own garage. I just know that paint adhesion can be a problem with some products if residue is left on the surface of the metal. Surface finishing can be a bit of a minefield.:)

Anyway it's not your problem

[Matt_S]

SEE! I told you I was there! :D:D:D

:wave:

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42330&stc=1&d=1171106018

[dano]

looking good, will be ace when its done.

[bren]

Just a thought. I don't know how your shell was treated, but I expect it was stripped either with chemicals or caustic then the loose rust removed and dipped again in a phosphating bath. This is just conversion coating solution that turns any remaining oxides into something that will cling to the surface and not flake off like oxides do. There are tons of secret formulas out there, I use a Cortec product but it i basically the same principle as the Jenolite that you will have in your own garage. I just know that paint adhesion can be a problem with some products if residue is left on the surface of the metal. Surface finishing can be a bit of a minefield.:)

Anyway it's not your problem

Ah, ok, so when the shells dipped if its not 'cleaned' properly as part of the dipping process then the residue left will prevent any primer from adhering properly?

What can be used to remove this residue? Im told the shell was DA'd and wiped down with thinners, what else could be done?

[bren]

looking good Bren:thumbs:

can't wait to see it blasting round a track :)

You and me both :thumbs:

[HighPsi]

will all get there in the end, amazing project and great attention to detail

[bren]

Thanks :)

[George]

Ah, ok, so when the shells dipped if its not 'cleaned' properly as part of the dipping process then the residue left will prevent any primer from adhering properly?

What can be used to remove this residue? Im told the shell was DA'd and wiped down with thinners, what else could be done?

It's usually specified by the product that is used. In most cases the metal has to be washed with deionised water or wiped down while it is still wet (thinners just kind of spread it around and you will still see the swirls of residue when it dries). Otherwise there is a kind of powdery layer that deposits on the metal as the solution evaporates and it is a bit like getting paint to stick to a floured surface.

You really need to stick to the instructions with this kind of stuff.:)

Don't know what DA'd is:confused:

[phat 13]

Ah, ok, so when the shells dipped if its not 'cleaned' properly as part of the dipping process then the residue left will prevent any primer from adhering properly?

What can be used to remove this residue? Im told the shell was DA'd and wiped down with thinners, what else could be done?

bren when you paint on bare metal it needs eatching first,the best way to see if it has is to peel a bit of primer off and look on the back side of it,normaly the eatch is a diffrent colour to the primer.hope this may help you mate,im sure your guy knows wots wot tho.

[Kamatayan]

That looks fast, and its not even moving :eek:

[Ari Vatanen]

Don't know what DA'd is:confused:

DA sanded maybe ???

[Colwell]

Most people use the term DA as short for 'duel action' sanders. Just an air powered disc that spins round but also off centre hence dual action. You put different grade discs on it for different finishes.

He means the car has been sanded and wiped.

http://www.tool-net.co.uk/data/tools/sa6duaccat93.jpg

[SM]

If its residue of anything it will be the preserving oil not the dip. Shell was dipped months ago, oiled, taken the the cage people, re-oiled, and has been bare metal for 6 months. If that wasnt fully cleaned off before the primer that would stop it sticking.

I'm sure it will get sorted :nod:

[George]

Most people use the term DA as short for 'duel action' sanders. Just an air powered disc that spins round but also off centre hence dual action. You put different grade discs on it for different finishes.

He means the car has been sanded and wiped.



Ahh, round here we call that a random orbital sander:)

[ShawJohn]

I hope it wasn't a silcone based oil they put on it cause if it was you'd need something pretty potent to get it off :(

[Nismo_Freak]

You mean seal the ends of the bumper to theres no air flow through them ot duct to force the air through the rad?

Regardong defelectors for the wheels, youre suggesting building little 'ramps' in front of the wheels at the back of the sills to sirect air down towards the floor?

Any airflow that enters the front bumper is purely for heat exchange purpose. If it is not being used then it will only promote drag and increase lift, and it needs to be blocked off. If you are going to use heat exchangers (radiator, oil cooler, gearbox cooler, brake ducts, etc.) then you need to focus on reducing drag via pressure modulation.

We know the front of the car holds high pressure airflow at the bumper. This flow will enter the radiator (or oil cooler) and needs to be expelled. If you don't duct this air then it will either stagnate (increasing underhood pressure / reducing mass flow through the radiator) or it will subvert to the lower pressure region under the car. Odds are you will have a full splitter to prevent this.

The solution is to connect the pressure at the front to the reduced pressure in the wake of the upper hood slipstream (hood vent basically). You duct the entire process from where the air enters to where the air exits. You do the same for other coolers. You also integrate front wheel wells into the construction in order to reduce drag at the tire. You can build ducts into the well for brake ducts.

Everything has to be anchored well to the chassis. Some simple aluminum or steel framing will do wonders. The result is tons better cooling, reduced drag, and a noticeable amount of frontal downforce.

Rear diffuser should start about behind the driver and slowly rake at a very minimal pitch and pick up to around 7 - 8 degs. of angle at the rear exit. Guide foils are beneficial for straightening out the airflow or ducting the air towards a rear diff cooler.

On the rear fender I am talking about blending the door line into the fender flare similar to what you'd see on the RUF BTR. You can minimize the aerodynamic rake which will drop drag in the region quite a bit over the air slamming into a flat tire surface. This would also stand to smooth out your rear wake (possibly reducing pressure further) and providing less airflow under the car.

Along the sills you should build a divider plate to prevent the air stream from subverting downward. You can find this on most DTM and JGTC car designs.

Pics of Kuah's Aero Work on his Z32:

http://upshizzle.com/up/pfiles/7837/reardiffuser.JPG

Rear diffuser exit.

http://upshizzle.com/up/pfiles/8299/Side1.JPG

You can make out the rear diffuser start point at about the pedal box.

http://upshizzle.com/up/pfiles/7835/fronttrailer.JPG

Note the block off plates and front splitter / dam assembly. Behind the bumper lies aluminum ducting to the radiator.

FWIW, Mike Kojima noted a 15 deg. reduction in running temps on the tract with front aero mods I noted above.

[Infinity]

Wow :eek: This is looking good Bren :nod:

I too am going to be at Gary's at some point on Monday - can't wait to see it in the metal.

Jut

[lumoxs]

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42330&stc=1&d=1171106018

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42331&stc=1&d=1171106037

hhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmm carbon :smitten: :notworthy awsome project bren :nod:

[purplepower]

Any airflow that enters the front bumper is purely for heat exchange purpose. If it is not being used then it will only promote drag and increase lift, and it needs to be blocked off. If you are going to use heat exchangers (radiator, oil cooler, gearbox cooler, brake ducts, etc.) then you need to focus on reducing drag via pressure modulation.

We know the front of the car holds high pressure airflow at the bumper. This flow will enter the radiator (or oil cooler) and needs to be expelled. If you don't duct this air then it will either stagnate (increasing underhood pressure / reducing mass flow through the radiator) or it will subvert to the lower pressure region under the car. Odds are you will have a full splitter to prevent this.

The solution is to connect the pressure at the front to the reduced pressure in the wake of the upper hood slipstream (hood vent basically). You duct the entire process from where the air enters to where the air exits. You do the same for other coolers. You also integrate front wheel wells into the construction in order to reduce drag at the tire. You can build ducts into the well for brake ducts.

Everything has to be anchored well to the chassis. Some simple aluminum or steel framing will do wonders. The result is tons better cooling, reduced drag, and a noticeable amount of frontal downforce.

Rear diffuser should start about behind the driver and slowly rake at a very minimal pitch and pick up to around 7 - 8 degs. of angle at the rear exit. Guide foils are beneficial for straightening out the airflow or ducting the air towards a rear diff cooler.

On the rear fender I am talking about blending the door line into the fender flare similar to what you'd see on the RUF BTR. You can minimize the aerodynamic rake which will drop drag in the region quite a bit over the air slamming into a flat tire surface. This would also stand to smooth out your rear wake (possibly reducing pressure further) and providing less airflow under the car.

Along the sills you should build a divider plate to prevent the air stream from subverting downward. You can find this on most DTM and JGTC car designs.

Pics of Kuah's Aero Work on his Z32:

http://upshizzle.com/up/pfiles/7837/reardiffuser.JPG

Rear diffuser exit.

http://upshizzle.com/up/pfiles/8299/Side1.JPG

You can make out the rear diffuser start point at about the pedal box.

http://upshizzle.com/up/pfiles/7835/fronttrailer.JPG

Note the block off plates and front splitter / dam assembly. Behind the bumper lies aluminum ducting to the radiator.

FWIW, Mike Kojima noted a 15 deg. reduction in running temps on the tract with front aero mods I noted above.

Some real good info there, Thanks for sharing. I plan to duct between my FMIC & rad before Japfest & also try and fabricate some sort of undertray / splitter. I actually understood quite a bit of tha above :eek: :thumbs:

Bren, any idea on what material you will use? I have been looking at aluminium & perspex...

[cliffb75]

I wouldn't bother with perspex. Quite heavy and expensive I think? Ally, fibreglass or carbon sheet is the obvious choice.

But don't overlook plywood either. A good way to make your mistakes cheaply! At autosport show noticed that several of the old le-mans cars, and the current DB9 race car use ply for the side splitters :nod:

[Nismo_Freak]

Some real good info there, Thanks for sharing. I plan to duct between my FMIC & rad before Japfest & also try and fabricate some sort of undertray / splitter. I actually understood quite a bit of tha above :eek: :thumbs:

Bren, any idea on what material you will use? I have been looking at aluminium & perspex...

You need to use rigid material. If you use a non-rigid material it will just deflect at speed and spoil the aero effect. Thin walled aluminum is well suited IMO. Carbon is nice but very much pricey.

[SM]

But don't overlook plywood either. A good way to make your mistakes cheaply! At autosport show noticed that several of the old le-mans cars, and the current DB9 race car use ply for the side splitters :nod:
Thats good to know, I was going to use it anyway, worked for Jez :thumbs:
There'll be 3 S13's with plywood splitters in TA07, Jez, Yak and me :smash:

[HighPsi]

a carbon kevlar composite may be suited to this? very light while also being very strong!!!

[piman2k]

Those doors are PORNO mate, how much did they set you back?!

[Nismo_Freak]

Bren,

Kuah's Z32 (pictured above) just placed 2nd in the Redline Time Attack event in California. It finished ahead of Porsche GT2's and many many other ultra high performance cars / drivers. It finished 0.2 seconds behind an NSX driven by a professional driver on Hoosier slicks while the Z was on lesser tire at a lower power setting. The second outing the Z's gearbox broke while it was out on better tires and more power.

The power of aero. :)

[bren]

Is there a reson why Kuah didn run that undertray from the diffuser right forward to the front bumper?

Does the undertray not cause problems with gearbox oil temps?

How does the diffuser start, is it belnded into the fllor at all or is there a sharp edge where air could flow beteen the undertray and the floor?

What did he do to combat exhaust temps, just wrap the system?

I cant picture the rear tyre deflector, Ill do a search for ythe RUF car :)

Thanks for the input, much appriciated. I do have a book on aerodynamics but havent got round to reading it yet :rolleyes:

[CNHSS1]

see attached scribblings of my current front end project and flat floor inc diffuser

[scimmy ben]

see attached scribblings of my current front end project and flat floor inc diffuser

Too much time at the desk Craig... I see the pop-ups are going again :) Does this mean you are ducting the flow through the radiator more rigidly?

For all concerned about gearbox temps, the SS1/Sabre has an undertray under the gearbox and although the sample size is smaller and the power outputs are generally lower, the gearbox failures you hear of are generally Craig's and his unsympathetic change technique :D If still concerned, a temp switch activated cooler ala the rear axle may be required.

[CNHSS1]

Yes Ben, the water rads in the boot and will be fed via a NACA duct in the floor start in front of the diff and the rear wing apertures to cover the wider rubber.
The bonnet and nose mods are to utilise the airflow under the nose (not under the car, but under the nose as its undercut) to flow thru the ducted IC and up over the bonnet, which at worst will cut the lift and im pretty sure give a useful amount of downforce.
As for temps, my car tends to channel the heat that cant escape under the car, thru the trans tunnel and then out. I doubt the temps are enough to cause the components too much worry, but as the driver in 3 layers of nomex race suit, i feel like a bloody fried chicken! Gonna wrap the exhaust, turbo and manifold and hopefully the bonnet vents will draw some of the heat out too. The cockpi floor will also be lined with reflective material so as not to cook me at Gas Mark 7!

[purplepower]

Some interesting discussions over on freshalloy about diffusers & undertrays.

Here's the thread; well worth a read :)

[ants13]

wheres the thread?

[Nismo_Freak]

Is there a reson why Kuah didn run that undertray from the diffuser right forward to the front bumper?

I haven't seen the finished piece yet. He finished it shortly before leaving for California. Odds are it is blended into an undertray from the front splitter back.



Does the undertray not cause problems with gearbox oil temps?


The car is having gearbox issues at relatively low power levels. I told him that I think the gearbox needs a cooler. The problem hasn't been resolved so I'm not sure what is going on with the box issue.




What did he do to combat exhaust temps, just wrap the system?


The car has a 4" mandrel pipe for an exhaust pipe. It is not wrapped. I don't feel that heat is an issue since the car has two downpipes to effectively double the area of the pipe. On our cars however overheating might be an issue, but I don't generally think it's a big deal unless you are running aggressive anti-lag.

I would suggest coating the bottom of the car above the exhaust with some heat retardant material if you are running exposed floor boards. Then again you don't have the exhaust running under your nuts like we do in the US.



Thanks for the input, much appriciated. I do have a book on aerodynamics but havent got round to reading it yet :rolleyes:

Sometimes it helps to just go with what works. You can spend all day trying to design effective aero packaging.

[Nismo_Freak]

wheres the thread?

Do a search on Fresh-Alloy you lazy British type. :ghey:

:wack: :wack: :wack: :wack: :wack:

How goes it Ant. :wave:

[purplepower]

Here's the thread...

http://forums.freshalloy.com/showthread.php?t=158857&highlight=aero+diffuser

Apologies :)

[Colwell]

Saw the car yesterday Bren and the doors are really good with the shut lines about spot on :thumbs: The amount of work the guys are putting into it is incredble.

If you want a really fancy front splitter, then Arimad (Kevlar) is the best stuff to use mate ;) as it has the most suitable properties.

[bren]

If you want a really fancy front splitter, then Arimad (Kevlar) is the best stuff to use mate ;) as it has the most suitable properties.

Is that an offer? *nudge nudge wink wink* You know you want to :thumbs:

[SM]

I'd have a sheet for my S13 if you were buying some bren ;)
Cost dependant, otherwise back to plywood :p

[George]

Saw the car yesterday Bren and the doors are really good with the shut lines about spot on :thumbs: The amount of work the guys are putting into it is incredble.

If you want a really fancy front splitter, then Arimad (Kevlar) is the best stuff to use mate ;) as it has the most suitable properties.

Really? I'd have thought carbon would be better due to its greater stiffness.

[Colwell]

Splitters have a tendancy to scrub on the floor, so if you made it solely from carbon it would more than likely just crack and bits break off on impact. Kevlar has much tougher and impact forgiving tolerances :nod:

Plywood would be the best cheap solution i would have thought as well.

[Colwell]

Is that an offer? *nudge nudge wink wink* You know you want to :thumbs:

Lol, wasn't meant to be mate. To be honest we dont use a great deal of Kevlar :no:

If we need something with those sort of properties we have a 'rubber' type laminate that goes between layers of carbon. Not really sure what it is but its pretty cool:)

[George]

Splitters have a tendancy to scrub on the floor, so if you made it solely from carbon it would more than likely just crack and boits break off on impact. Kevlar has much tougher and impact forgiving tolerances :nod:

Thought that might be the compromise. You don't really want aerodynamic aids to flex, but at the same time it is nice if they stay in one piece.:)

I suppose you just have to reinforce it a bit more or make a slightly thicker part.

[Topper]

Should the splitter protrude? Or would running it from the same level (height) as the bumper back into the car work? I.e. not making the front bumper closer to the floor

Like this -

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wMTMzMDYwNjZzNDEzZGZkMzF5NTQx.jpg

[SM]

Closer to the floor the better :nod:

Ideally it should go forward to "split" the air under and over, the pic above just helps flatting, but the pressure build up at the front will still force more air under the car than something that cuts it a few inches forward of the front of the car.

[DR1FT3R]

exactly closer to the floor the less air enters under the car so the lesser the problem

[bren]

Splitters seem to be horizontal, shouldnt they be angled downwards slightly so force the front fo the car downwards?

[George]

Splitters seem to be horizontal, shouldnt they be angled downwards slightly so force the front fo the car downwards?

That's not really how they work, the splitter stops a lot of the airflow from getting under the car and a high static pressure area forms on top of the splitter as the air tries to escape round the sides of the car and over the top.

The air that does get under the car can be used to drive your venturi which is made up of your undertray and rear diffuser. Your undertray should start as near the front of your car as possible and have a shallow angle all the way to the rear diffuser which you can have as steep as you can get without getting flow separation. This again is for front downforce (although the diffuser can be used o drive the rear wing). For the rear you just need a big gay wing to balance things out.:)

[bren]

Is it worth spacing the front of the undertray down slightly to allow a shallow angle to be built into the underneath of the car?

[George]

Is it worth spacing the front of the undertray down slightly to allow a shallow angle to be built into the underneath of the car?

Yup, that should make a difference, although it will mean a deeper front air dam. This is quite a big and wooly subject unless you have access to a wind tunnel or a good CFD computer model. There are a lot of things that are tried and tested and there are also little details that need to be paid attention to. Read your book when you get a chance and you will increase depth of understanding. A good book for grasping the fundementals and also giving you practical pointers is Aerodynamics for Competition Cars by Simon McBeath.

[CNHSS1]

yes, have a look at the scribblings i did for my setup, the whole floor should slope by 2-5degrees, rising from the front to the rear before it joins the diffuser. This angle also stops the car being 'pitch critical' too where as the nose rises over a bump or between gear changes the car goes from downforce to lift which can be very odd indeed!:eek: think Lemans porsche and Merc cars back flipping.
The rear diffuser angle doesnt want to be too great, 7-10 degrees is about max or the air flow will break away and become turbulent in the diffuser. Ignore F1 'Bat cave' diffusers, they are due to the regs and slightly higher speeds too!.
as for the splitter, as George said, its not a 'wing' where you need and angle of attack, its splits the air boundary layer that builds up in front of the nose of the car. A wing section, given taht it needs an angle of incidence (angle of attack) causes drag too, so a near parallel splitter causes less drag, but still contributes to downforce by not creating lift (that all amkes sense in my head.....:wack: )

[CNHSS1]

The McBeath books very good in terms of being practical and easy to understand. Also deals with real world speeds (sub 150mph cornering:thumbs: )

I think im gonna continue with ply but the front splitter and tray having a layer of kevlar just to stop it getting wrecked when riding the kerbs.
Advantages of full carbon or carbon/kevlar floors are strength and weight, but i cant justify the cost, especially as my front, centre and diffuser sections i suspect will become 'consumables' through a season due to *ahem, cough* incidents:D

[ants13]

Do a search on Fresh-Alloy you lazy British type. :ghey:

:wack: :wack: :wack: :wack: :wack:

How goes it Ant. :wave:


I may be lazy but I'm not British, I'm English,........ohhh hang on wait a minute,

Umm I'll get back to you about that!!! :wack:

Everythings going fine mate, got track days and a new engine coming up soon so busy busy busy!!! Anyway get your arse over here for a couple of weeks!


Sorry for the hijack, back on topic!

[Nismo_Freak]

Bren, this will briefly explain front aero functionality for you.

http://nismo.q45.org/airdamstech.pdf

[Nismo_Freak]

Yup, that should make a difference, although it will mean a deeper front air dam. This is quite a big and wooly subject unless you have access to a wind tunnel or a good CFD computer model. There are a lot of things that are tried and tested and there are also little details that need to be paid attention to. Read your book when you get a chance and you will increase depth of understanding. A good book for grasping the fundementals and also giving you practical pointers is Aerodynamics for Competition Cars by Simon McBeath.

I don't think degreeing an attack angle into the splitter will be positive. It would have a poor downforce to drag ratio since it would impart an upward motion to the flow. It would create a stagnation front at the bumper with a ton of drag, and the cantilevered member is not rigid at an angle so deflection based dynamics will be an issue. That is if you are talking about the integrated splitter member.

In my opinion, the under tray at the engine should be flat (neutral) in order to maximize effectiveness since you want to maintain flow properties before you develop them in the diffuser.

[George]

I don't think degreeing an attack angle into the splitter will be positive. It would have a poor downforce to drag ratio since it would impart an upward motion to the flow. It would create a stagnation front at the bumper with a ton of drag, and the cantilevered member is not rigid at an angle so deflection based dynamics will be an issue. That is if you are talking about the integrated splitter member.

In my opinion, the under tray at the engine should be flat (neutral) in order to maximize effectiveness since you want to maintain flow properties before you develop them in the diffuser.

I think you missed the point, the splitter is still horizontal, it's just moved down a bit to accomodate the shallow 3-5 degree angle that the undertray (from the bulkhead back) will be sitting at. Otherwise the chassis legs get in the way.:thumbs:

[bren]

Sending some more stuff down to Garys.

Anti bump steer K sport rod ends:

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42513&stc=1&d=1171458074

Apex roll centre adjusters:

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42514&stc=1&d=1171458603

Aluminium solid rack mounts:

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42515&stc=1&d=1171459950

[SM]

Anti bumper steer ends I guess.

The solid rack mounts looked :cool:

Heard anything about the paint?

[bren]

Ive heard nothing about the paint, zip, nada, sweet fa.

[tommo]

What stage do you need the anti bump steer rod ends? and what about those roll centre was-a-name's?
My S14 is real low on apex coilovers and i know i need to correct the rear camber but i've never seen either of those bits! :)

[Nismo_Freak]

I think you missed the point, the splitter is still horizontal, it's just moved down a bit to accomodate the shallow 3-5 degree angle that the undertray (from the bulkhead back) will be sitting at. Otherwise the chassis legs get in the way.:thumbs:

Ic.

[bren]

When you lower the car the steering rods rise at the hub end. The bump steer rod ends drop the pivot point down to bring the back to a more horizontal level.

Any lowered car will suffer from bump steer to a degree, the lower the car the more it will be effected.

The roll centre joints are new to me, this will be the first time we will have used them.

[Topper]

How would i know what bump steer feels like?

sorry for the nOOb type question

[DR1FT3R]

you go over a small bump or crease in the road and the car steers itself a bit like tramling but evil...er effort to kepp the car in a straight line

[Neal]

I have suffered from bump steer on my old FTO i do belive.

Cracking car this Bren il be keeping a very close eye on it :)

[Smart-Tech]

To improve adhesion of the etch primer get the shell sandblasted then cleaned with flash fast panel wipe. No oil or silicones will survive it. :thumbs:
Looks awseome by the way.

[Sir Nodrick]

To improve adhesion of the etch primer get the shell sandblasted then cleaned with flash fast panel wipe. No oil or silicones will survive it. :thumbs:
Looks awseome by the way.


He's not cleaning his bathroom here.... :wack: ;) :thumbs:

[kriSX]

Ithink a bit of plywood works ok for the undertray Bren as all the F1 teams have some bolted to the underside of their cars.If its good enough for them guys it must ok for a road car.The engine looks awesome, I`d be happy to have that as a centre piece in my living room.Not sure our lass would be though

[dano]

Ithink a bit of plywood works ok for the undertray Bren as all the F1 teams have some bolted to the underside of their cars.If its good enough for them guys it must ok for a road car.The engine looks awesome, I`d be happy to have that as a centre piece in my living room.Not sure our lass would be though


i understand the F1 cars have to run a plywood section under the floor. its to do with checking the ground clearance and ensuring not too much of the wood has been worn at the end of the race.

[slideordie]

Amazing project mate. Good luck with it, I'm sure it'll try your patience at times!

[def]

My mate cant do it (de-fuser)as he needs one to mould his one. sorry brenda:) but if you know of someone who has an after market one he should be able to do it

[Squares]

Just wanted to say great project Bren and good luck.:nod: :)

[joney]

The easiest thing to do on the diffuser front is to model it in cardboard and then transfer it to sheet steel, then take a CF moulding off that. If you put 6mm nomex or aluminium honeycombe in there with a few plys of wet lay carbon on either side then you'll be pretty sorted :D

[kriSX]

i understand the F1 cars have to run a plywood section under the floor. its to do with checking the ground clearance and ensuring not too much of the wood has been worn at the end of the race.

Yes I understand this, I`m a massive F1 fan, the point I was trying to put across is that it has no obvious limitations to the cars undertray otherwise they wouldn`t use it. Sorry for any confusion people !

[dano]

Yes I understand this, I`m a massive F1 fan, the point I was trying to put across is that it has no obvious limitations to the cars undertray otherwise they wouldn`t use it. Sorry for any confusion people !


ah, i got what you meant by it now :)

[Jezzter]

Its not actually plywood under the F1 cars guys .. there are two options, either resin impregnated hard wood or a special resin based synthetic material. However thats me being pedantic :ghey:
My point is its non-structural & is simply there because the regs say it needs to be. (& yeah, its so min ride height can be monitored through wear) The floor & diffuser are all carbon

Great project Bren, can't wait to see it :thumbs:

[bren]

I was down at Garys yesterday and we have what we need to move the project on :)

[George]

I was down at Garys yesterday and we have what we need to move the project on :)

Have you robbed a bank?

[yeager]

Bren, this looks AWESOME!! God I would love to put that around the track for a few laps (not sideways) on a decent set of slicks. Who you getting to drive it for time attacks?

[SM]

Who you getting to drive it for time attacks?
I think Bren will have that honour himself :nod:

[bren]

Have you robbed a bank?

No but we dont need money to get some serious progress sorted :) I think the Skyline is now on a limited life, I cant see us keeping the Skyline and S14 come the end of this years season :( If anyone wants to buy a nails RB25 with PPG dog box, big turbo, injectors, fuel system etc at the end of the year then let me know :wack:


Bren, this looks AWESOME!! God I would love to put that around the track for a few laps (not sideways) on a decent set of slicks. Who you getting to drive it for time attacks?


I think Bren will have that honour himself :nod:

Im going to get some help from race engineers to set it up and will be taking some serious tuition to learn to use the car properly but hope to drive it myself :nod:

[ex-ctr]

No but we dont need money to get some serious progress sorted :) I think the Skyline is now on a limited life, I cant see us keeping the Skyline and S14 come the end of this years season :( If anyone wants to buy a nails RB25 with PPG dog box, big turbo, injectors, fuel system etc at the end of the year then let me know :wack:





Im going to get some help from race engineers to set it up and will be taking some serious tuition to learn to use the car properly but hope to drive it myself :nod:

don't you worry that after all the time and effort you have put into this project that you might stuff it into a wall, i do with mine and I'm only on a small budget, at times i wish i had gone out and brought one track ready as its not the money but the effort you have put into it which plays on the back of your mind on track and holds you back, 90% commitment instead of 100% if you know what i mean, or are you a red mist type that's out to win no matter the cost:)

[Asht_200]

How about you talk to top gear and get the STIG to take it around the test track. Would be good publicity for APEX also:thumbs:

[Chris B]

That would be excellent :D

[purplepower]

If anyone wants to buy a nails RB25 with PPG dog box, big turbo, injectors, fuel system etc at the end of the year then let me know :wack:



May be interested in the box ;) - Gimme a shout first if it ever happens :thumbs:

Jay

[bren]

don't you worry that after all the time and effort you have put into this project that you might stuff it into a wall, i do with mine and I'm only on a small budget, at times i wish i had gone out and brought one track ready as its not the money but the effort you have put into it which plays on the back of your mind on track and holds you back, 90% commitment instead of 100% if you know what i mean, or are you a red mist type that's out to win no matter the cost:)

Yep, its a majour concern. I dont drive to the cars limits on track, I drive to what I feel the cars limits are and dont push past that point. That leaves me a fair margin of safety and it works for me, Ive only ever spun once on track and that was due to inexperience years ago in our Cossy. I only spin now on airfields when Im deliberately pushing the limits where I know its safe to do so.

Having said that we now have a professional driver working with Apex and he is already showing me where the real limits of the cars are meaning I will now no doubt be pushing much closer to them with the resultant increased chance of binning the cars :rolleyes:

The cage guys assure me that the shell can be hammered straight in the instance of an off that bends it :wack:


How about you talk to top gear and get the STIG to take it around the test track. Would be good publicity for APEX also:thumbs:

Good idea :)


May be interested in the box ;) - Gimme a shout first if it ever happens :thumbs:

Jay

Will do :) Obviously I dont want to sell the Skyline as its being built as a full on top spec drift car so will be completely different to the S14 in what its capable of and will be a very impressive car in its own right but if needs be it will have to go, as with everything we own.

[bren]

Ill also have to step up my driving if I want to stand any chance of getting placed in Time Attack so do expect to do a fair bit of damage in the process. It has to be expected if I want to learn to driver right on the limit, theres no easy way round it.

[bren]

We have now got a race engineer on board via our driver to help set the whole thing up :cool:

[ex-ctr]

Ill also have to step up my driving if I want to stand any chance of getting placed in Time Attack so do expect to do a fair bit of damage in the process. It has to be expected if I want to learn to driver right on the limit, theres no easy way round it.

could you do us all a favour when its finished get it photographed professionally with some tasty undressed ladies draped over it then make it into a calendar, 12 shots with the car and ladies in different poses sounds good, then you can go out and break it:nod: :D

[yeager]

Ill also have to step up my driving if I want to stand any chance of getting placed in Time Attack so do expect to do a fair bit of damage in the process. It has to be expected if I want to learn to driver right on the limit, theres no easy way round it.

Respect to you Bren. Getting some proper instruction on race driving would be very very useful. Learning braking techniques, car balance etc will let you shave seconds off times. Also I would recommend getting a decent PC with a good steering wheel and simulator to actually practice some of the stuff you are taught. GTR2 with a Logitech Momo force feedback wheel goes a long way to understanding good throttle control and it's much cheaper than a track day.

[sideways.taff]

GTR2 with a Logitech Momo force feedback wheel goes a long way to understanding good throttle control and it's much cheaper than a track day.

I worked on GTR2 :p

[SpencerS14]

this is amazing! fair doo's to you Bren and the whole of the Apex team involved - as well as Gary :notworthy

Cant wait to see this running!

[SteveSadler]

nice m8. nice!;-) looking forward to seeing it run

[ants13]

could you do us all a favour when its finished get it photographed professionally with some tasty undressed ladies draped over it then make it into a calendar, 12 shots with the car and ladies in different poses sounds good, then you can go out and break it:nod: :D

yeah I wouldnt mind a calender of it!!!

[yeager]

I worked on GTR2 :p

Really? You hero! What did you do? And do you know how I can get my Logitech Momo Force pedals working as seperate axis? :D

[Felix_kentish]

could you do us all a favour when its finished get it photographed professionally with some tasty undressed ladies draped over it then make it into a calendar, 12 shots with the car and ladies in different poses sounds good, then you can go out and break it:nod: :D

calender sounds good :thumbs:

[cliffb75]

ebay find:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130028626717&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RSII_Pr4_PcY_BIN_Stores_IT&refitem=6638248451&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=active_view_item&usedrule1=ItemToItem&usedrule2=StoreCatToStoreCat&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget

??

[bren]

How do we tell if that will be suitable or is it a case of theyre all similar?

[ex-ctr]

are you using a rear skirt becaues it would need to be 1.3mtrs wide min, also as we have irs [nothing hangs low:) ]the under tray can come really close to the inside of our wheels so you would need a custom one, might be worth contacting them to get one made:nod:

[bren]

Got some more parts landing soon:

Throttle body system:

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=43179&stc=1&d=1173185795

Lower front arms (see bearing inner mount and roll centre adjustment) with tc arms.

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=43180&stc=1&d=1173185824

Rear lower arms. Again note bearing inner mounts and roll centre adjustment:

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=43181&stc=1&d=1173185839

Tie rods:

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=43182&stc=1&d=1173186000

Bump steer rod ends:

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=43183&stc=1&d=1173186023

[bren]

are you using a rear skirt becaues it would need to be 1.3mtrs wide min, also as we have irs [nothing hangs low:) ]the under tray can come really close to the inside of our wheels so you would need a custom one, might be worth contacting them to get one made:nod:

Ill get onto it once we have the rear bumper installed.

[ex-ctr]

Ill get onto it once we have the rear bumper installed.

i so need to see this car when its finished:smitten: any thoughts on having it professionally photographed as its going to be the number 1 sx in the uk

[bren]

Ive not thought that far ahead, the tunnel seems to be long and the lights a long way off yet :cry: Im keeping on with the baby steps and one day we will get there :nod:

[SX Sam]

Is that the Ikeya throttle body set up Bren??

It looks very :cool:

[D1HKS]

Those arms are the Ikeya Formula stuff? How do they compare to the Apex arms?

[bren]

Is that the Ikeya throttle body set up Bren??

It looks very :cool:

Yep, hopefully it will give us better midrange response and rivability than just running a big ass throttle body.


Those arms are the Ikeya Formula stuff? How do they compare to the Apex arms?

Apex doesnt have own brand lower arms. :no:

[cliffb75]

are you using a rear skirt becaues it would need to be 1.3mtrs wide min, also as we have irs [nothing hangs low:) ]the under tray can come really close to the inside of our wheels so you would need a custom one, might be worth contacting them to get one made:nod:

That was my thinking - if they already have something close they may be able to produce something similar, or modify what they already have.

Alternatively have a chat with local fibreglass laminator type people - anyone who works with fibreglass could do carbon undertrays since you wouldn't need it to be structural, so no need to autoclave it.

Just depends if you want to spend the money......

Those lower arms look very nice. Rears don't look like they would be too difficult to get made (nudge nudge ;) )

[fegizii]

Any news on the project Bren?

[bren]

We are going to cut back the car to an extent just to get it up and running so will be going with standard pedal box, wiring loom etc for now. Garys paint guy has been to see the car and reckons the majority of the primer is fine, theres just areas that need sorting and gary can blast it down to get it prepped.

[Evilchap]

Hello Bren

Have you thought once you have your wings, door skins etc fitted of having somebody take moulds to allow you to practice on track with full enthusiasm?

Same with diffusers and splitters and stuff. There are many skilled people around who could do it, I could put you in touch with some.

Once you have those, with a bit of kit you could sell them to order if the demand was there and if you have some space, and you could have enough spares to give the car the beans on the track!

Just a thought.

Ben

[j.alvin]

The front lower arms, is that something you guys at apex can get??
If possibble do you have a price ???

[Matt_S]

I saw the car yesterday Bren. The new susp bits you have are awesome and I want! :D:D:D

[bren]

Ok, the shells gone off for painting, woohoo! :D

[purplepower]

Yay!! :D :D

[necromancer]

woohoo glad to hear its moving forward again :D

[RSendout]

YAY, another guess the colour thread:wack:

[bren]

Its going to come back white to begin with so the shell can be built up then itll go back for the outside painting :nod:

[dukey]

wow i am in awe of this whole project and would 1 day dream of seeing it race.

fancy lendin it to me for a weekend when its done????
(dont think it would like all the speed bumps round here)

[bren]

It will be road legal but I seriously doubt itll go over any speed bumps. The ride height will be that of the touring cars :wack:

[dukey]

tell you what then i have a new mission in life

"my mission is to buy a mental hard ass digger and flatten all roads in the country. no more speed bumps just so we all can enjoy the roads"

and take out a couple novas on the way round too!

[boosted drifter]

Just a quick question bren..... Whats that gear off that runs off the tomei exhaust sprocket that powers the CAS?

Looks awesome by the way:thumbs:

[bren]

As you say, it drives the cas I believe.

[boosted drifter]

What it came already instaled on the engine?

[bren]

Yeah it came like that

[yeager]

Pics!

[Ste333]

Yeah pics please :)

[Yak]

It will be road legal but I seriously doubt itll go over any speed bumps. The ride height will be that of the touring cars :wack:

I have trouble getting on and off my drive when Ive got my shroom on. Speed bumps = :no: and then this cars going to be even more extreme :D

[200sxslide]

any updates bren?:thumbs:

[amnesia]

Come on, come on... another month on and no updates :(

[bren]

We picked it up from Garys a couple of weeks ago so its here now:

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=49313&stc=1&d=1190711976

[200sxslide]

looking good:thumbs:

[Delboy]

Really can't wait to see this finished and out on track :thumbs:

[ben8000]

got to be an update on this by now?:)

[purple200]

lookin awsome!!!

[def]

Whats the eta now?

Doesnt look like much progress have you had any other issue with the painted chassis?:confused:

Have a good crimbo:thumbs:

[diamondsink]

Think your project has died a bit bren, was well excited about it, when it was first started.

[Sir Nodrick]

aye, i think brens got bored of it... bren, i'll give ya £300 for the unfinished project... ;)