E85 (Bioethanol) Powered 200SX (S14a)

[skyshack]

OEM systems use an fuel mix sensor AKA Flex Fuel sensor. It's fitted in the fuel hose and measures the ethanol content. Allows any mix from 100% ethanol to 100% petrol. So it doesn't matter what fuel you can get, the ECU is told what it's using and adjusts accordingly. Normally the GM or Ford parts cost around $500, it's something like this but in bag that says Ford or GM on it -so it looks like Siemens, Ford/GM etc and the dealer all make 100% on a $60 part.
http://www.siemensvdo.com/products_s...x-fuel-sensor/

Megasquirt uses a GM part - someone is selling them cheap $50.
http://www.megamanual.com/flexfuel.htm
(Phatbob - will VEMS do this? Or have they gone too far down different paths?)

E85 likes to be very much richer for max power than petrol. It's not just a simple case of bung xx% more fuel in across the whole range. The megasquirt web page shows the ratio of petrol to E85 at stoichiometric to be 146% (1.46x the amount), for (avg) best power it's 12.5/7.65 = 163% (1.63x), injectors / pumps need sizing to met that best power demand

On a normally mapped ECU like the stock Nissan ones without spare programmable external inputs you could have 8 or 16 maps to cover the range 95-105RON. 128K rom chip(s) will do. If you could be sure of always getting 99RON octane petrol or E85 then you could use fewer maps. Using the sensor on PIC chip interface the map switching would have to be latched when the ECU is doing a memory / IO write - it's not accessing rom. Otherwise a bit of maths and a careful record of what has gone in the tank could be used for manual selection on leaving the pump. The mix won't change while driving and what's in the fuel rail will purge back to the tank during priming. Mapping sessions would need to use at least 3 fuel mixes, 100% petrol of the lowest octane you would use, 100% E85 and a 50/50 mix of the two. You can fill in the other maps as either a straight line or a parabola fitted though the 3 points.

There is a technique called "virtual octane sensor", this uses lambda, knock sensor and ion ignition detection to find the mixture and best ignition for whatever mix of fuel is used. AFAIK No aftermarket ECU is clever enough yet.

Fuel tanks very rarely contain an explosive mix of air and fuel vapour. If there is liquid fuel sloshing around in there the vapour mix is usually so rich that it's not explosive (it is at vents, the filler or any other hole - the free air dilutes the mix very close to the hole). It's when you drain the tank and there is just a small amount left in seams that it leans out to the point that it will go bang.

[JP]

So what you're saying is my injectors will be maxed out at this rate? SOrry, I need more sleep before I can fully understand all that!

JP

[PhatBob]

Megasquirt uses a GM part - someone is selling them cheap $50.
http://www.megamanual.com/flexfuel.htm
(Phatbob - will VEMS do this? Or have they gone too far down different paths?)

Nope we dont have that, as we have the built-in wideband controller and UEGO feedback it was never really considered as an option. I think also thats one of the US based options, never seen it over here.

Rob

[JP]

So in a sentence Skyshack, are you saying we have a problem? Sorry about this but I can't be the only person who looked at that & when "huh?!" If I'm JUST running E85 & have my car mapped to suit, is there a problem?

JP

[Loose Hand Luke]

If I'm JUST running E85 & have my car mapped to suit, is there a problem?

JP

No. Just as long as you change everything you need to.
What I think people are getting at is the difficulty of changing between fuels once you've converted to allow you to choose.
A car mapped and set up for only E85 will work fine.

[JP]

No. Just as long as you change everything you need to.
What I think people are getting at is the difficulty of changing between fuels once you've converted to allow you to choose.
A car mapped and set up for only E85 will work fine.

That's exactly what I wanted to hear!

[WeirdNeville]

This is a fasinating project - Hope it works out well!

My big bug-bear with High Performance motoring at the moment is the Ostrich response to Carbon Output. Combined with our increased reliance on rogue states to keep oil prices low, it puts us in a less and less tenable position with regards to our hobby.

"In ten years we'll all be driving Electric/Hydrogen Powered cars" Errr, no we won't. No-one seems to consider the full life cycle of these vehicles. Hybrids get very poor fuel economy in spirited driving and weigh too much. Electric will always have a limited range and no-one seems to consider where the electricity comes form in the first place - Burning Fossil fuels, inefficiently, and then transporting it hundreds of miles in cables with all it's associated losses. And as for the environmental issues surrounding batteries - Forgeddabout-it!

Bio-Fuel is the way forwards. A zero Carbon fuel option which can preserve oil resources for really important uses, reduce our reliance on other states for energy or at least spread the burden, and increase performance to boot!

If E85 were widely available on the forecourt I'd not hesistate in switching my SX over to it. Then my eco-missus could stop bitching about it's inefficiency, and I'd get to enjoy an extra few Bhp with a clear conscience.

Lets hope the SX leads the way in conversions, to prove how easy it can be!

[PhatBob]

This is a fasinating project - Hope it works out well!

My big bug-bear with High Performance motoring at the moment is the Ostrich response to Carbon Output. Combined with our increased reliance on rogue states to keep oil prices low, it puts us in a less and less tenable position with regards to our hobby.

"In ten years we'll all be driving Electric/Hydrogen Powered cars" Errr, no we won't. No-one seems to consider the full life cycle of these vehicles. Hybrids get very poor fuel economy in spirited driving and weigh too much. Electric will always have a limited range and no-one seems to consider where the electricity comes form in the first place - Burning Fossil fuels, inefficiently, and then transporting it hundreds of miles in cables with all it's associated losses. And as for the environmental issues surrounding batteries - Forgeddabout-it!

Bio-Fuel is the way forwards. A zero Carbon fuel option which can preserve oil resources for really important uses, reduce our reliance on other states for energy or at least spread the burden, and increase performance to boot!

If E85 were widely available on the forecourt I'd not hesistate in switching my SX over to it. Then my eco-missus could stop bitching about it's inefficiency, and I'd get to enjoy an extra few Bhp with a clear conscience.

Lets hope the SX leads the way in conversions, to prove how easy it can be!

A turbo'ed engine is an execeptionally good basis for a bio-ethanol or bio-butanol fuel. A quick glance around the forum will see that most people tend to be limited in their power and reliability by the octane of the fuels that are readily available.

Ethanol is going to be the solution to a fair degree of our fuel needs, unfortunately its production and uptake is going to be subject to the same sort of political bartering that the whole CO2/global warming debate is. In the US its 'common knowledge' that Ethanol is not the solution because the can't grow enough corn to satisfy demand.
The trouble is that corn is one of the least suitable crops to use for Ethanol production! The reason the septics are reliant on it is because of the political lobbying power from the corn growers.
Brazil on the other hand has no such problem and creates enough ethanol for its internal and export requirements. Once there is a sufficiently large demand for sugar cane, the equitorial African county's farmers (that have been massively screwed by the Common Agricultural Policy) would be potential bio-mass producers.
Some would argue that this is changing one unstable political source to another, but if this was to be done following the Fair Trade business model we might see a slightly more acceptable solution.

So there you have it, its a fairly trite, heavily biased to my own beliefs, summary of the advantages of Ethanol aside from the obvious engine power benefits.

[keasty]

ive just read this thread and am i right in thinking you will need twice as much fuel to go the same distance and it costs about the same as petrol?

[JP]

ive just read this thread and am i right in thinking you will need twice as much fuel to go the same distance and it costs about the same as petrol?

In a word, no. E85 is cheaper (by 10-20% depending where you go) MPG is slightly reduced, performance is increased, emissions are lower, it's a better fuel for your engine which means it'll last longer & have less bung-ups along fuel lines, injectors etc. Believe me, I'm not interested in converting to some random fuel-source for the laugh...

Oh, & it'll either work out the same price or better than using petrol depending on the price & how you've the car tuned.

JP

[PhatBob]

In a word, no. E85 is cheaper (by 10-20% depending where you go) MPG is slightly reduced, performance is increased, emissions are lower, it's a better fuel for your engine which means it'll last longer & have less bung-ups along fuel lines, injectors etc. Believe me, I'm not interested in converting to some random fuel-source for the laugh...

Oh, & it'll either work out the same price or better than using petrol depending on the price & how you've the car tuned.

JP

One tiny issue here in the UK. As part of the government's green initiative they've decided that the duty on "eco" fuel should be increased to the same amount as the dino juice we all know and love.

Rob

[JP]

Still though, better fuel for the same money, I'd still buy it!

[RohanC]

This is a fasinating project - Hope it works out well!

My big bug-bear with High Performance motoring at the moment is the Ostrich response to Carbon Output. Combined with our increased reliance on rogue states to keep oil prices low, it puts us in a less and less tenable position with regards to our hobby.

"In ten years we'll all be driving Electric/Hydrogen Powered cars" Errr, no we won't. No-one seems to consider the full life cycle of these vehicles. Hybrids get very poor fuel economy in spirited driving and weigh too much. Electric will always have a limited range and no-one seems to consider where the electricity comes form in the first place - Burning Fossil fuels, inefficiently, and then transporting it hundreds of miles in cables with all it's associated losses. And as for the environmental issues surrounding batteries - Forgeddabout-it!

Bio-Fuel is the way forwards. A zero Carbon fuel option which can preserve oil resources for really important uses, reduce our reliance on other states for energy or at least spread the burden, and increase performance to boot!

If E85 were widely available on the forecourt I'd not hesistate in switching my SX over to it. Then my eco-missus could stop bitching about it's inefficiency, and I'd get to enjoy an extra few Bhp with a clear conscience.

Lets hope the SX leads the way in conversions, to prove how easy it can be!

Wholesale Electric production per KW/h is vastly more efficiant than the combustion engine in a car, as is the power distibution network, when compared to the energy used in defraction and lugging 1,000,000's of tons of oil around!

And as Bob said, grain is a shit source of BioMass, but goverments are to suseptable to the influence of lobby groups

There is promise from a project i read about though, where they have managed to turn the whole of the crop of grain into Ethanol, rather than just the heads of corn.

Saying that, considering the bulk of crop you can get from Cannabis plants i cant work out why people arnt researching that as a fuel

BTW, my misses is Eco mad, but loves fast cars too

[alexjj]

A friend of an ex of mine just got hired last year in a start up with huge cash injection for bio engineered life forms which converts any plant source into ethanol.

Thats right, synthetic life - totally artifically created - no divine intervention at all. The first synthetic life form was a virus, created in 2001 but peer reviewed later (check it out on Google scholar - peer reviewed in "Science").

The premise is - these artificial bacteria become hugely efficient engines, metabolising plant material into fuel. The more they feed, the more efficient (until certain density of organism/fuel/feed/metabolites) they are.

Its based in Guildford, near the satellite and space research park I think..

I asked for a discount.. Anyways - they are gearing up - as are many start ups - this is the next wave - a lot of money being invested in it. You dont create artificial life for nothing with no prospect of a return, it takes several Phd students slogging away for years to make artificial life!

Here is one synthetic bacterium http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/conten...urcetype=HWCIT
Which moved things on from the old days (2001.. ) where we could only create viruses from scratch.

Its increasingly simple to code in instructions to life using chemical ones and zeroes into a genome now - thankfully its mostly robotised - I have seen vast farms... of robots, all making life.. you wouldnt believe it!

[PhatBob]

Wholesale Electric production per KW/h is vastly more efficiant than the combustion engine in a car, as is the power distibution network, when compared to the energy used in defraction and lugging 1,000,000's of tons of oil around!

And as Bob said, grain is a shit source of BioMass, but goverments are to suseptable to the influence of lobby groups

Its a good source of biomass, just not a particularly good one
Take a look at what BP and British Sugar have been doing with bio-butanol though.

There is promise from a project i read about though, where they have managed to turn the whole of the crop of grain into Ethanol, rather than just the heads of corn.

The holy grail of extracting the hydrocarbons from cellulous, its technically possible but then again so is cold fusion.

Saying that, considering the bulk of crop you can get from Cannabis plants i cant work out why people arnt researching that as a fuel [/QUOTE]

Re-read your lobbying group sentence and put it here. Cotton growers took down the hemp industry back when god was a boy. As an oil seed rape is better and for ethanol its not carbohydrate rich enough. I live in East Anglia where sugar beet is grown, lots of carbs in that.

BTW, my misses is Eco mad, but loves fast cars too

I'm eco mad too - I love this planet. I aint too keen on the people on it mind you.

[johnnyhillen]

all very interesting and it sounds like fun but does any one know of a supplier in northern ireland

[alexjj]

I agree... one thing we could code into one of her bacteriums would be the ability to metabolise other things.. like..

What is a plentiful supply of materials, and even INCREASES in numbers during periods of drought, lack of resources - even lack of education? Why... Chavs or other scum!

Metabolise them in huge vats - like in the video Pink Floyd the Wall - they all march into a huge vat...

And out the bottom - 105RON!!!! Cant say fairer than that.. Never ending supply of fuel.. just keep Asda on the go and the catholic church forbidding condoms et voila.... might have to bump up Burberry production mind..

err possible all of that but...

socially desirable? just so we can burn it in huge quantities???

Yer...


Sorry Johnny hillen - check out maxol.ie - for Irish sites - think ESSO is being bought over to launch E85

[johnnyhillen]

forgot to say kudos to jp for having the balls to go for it, lets hope he doesn't blow ireland to pieces

have u ever considered remote start for the car

[alexjj]

Ah didnt see your signature Johnny the link I gave you is for Ireland, not NI - Im not sure where you would get it there.. How far are you from the nearest Maxol bio fuel site - too far to make it worth while?

[johnnyhillen]

pity cause i think the car is under fueling cause the injectors are too small and so i would have just got an extra larger size and it would need mapped any way, i'll prob get the extra larger size anyway incase bio becomes feasable in the future