Tyres, staggered vs Square (race track setup)

[BLAKTOOTH]

265/265 vs 235/265

What's best on a 400bhp+ RWD S14 track car running R compound tyres (R888/A048/DZ03G)?

I currently run a staggered tyre setup on the same size rims. This is due to body constraints. 25mm wings and 50mm overs. I'm looking to do something with the wings to give me as much room up front as I have out back. The question is, is it worth the effort? Obviously the wider you go the more grip but is there an advantage to running wider rears and skinnier fronts in terms of understeer and oversteer? Do you need as much tyre at the front as you do at the back?

[zeppelin101]

Personal preference to some extent. Although weight distribution both statically and dynamically plays a factor.

I ran staggered before, although at a lot less power and I found it annoying mid-corner tbh. Car felt much more inclined to push on than it did to hold a line. I'm now running the same all round with more power and it's a lot more flexible and responds more neatly to throttle inputs as well.

Worth experimenting with.

[BLAKTOOTH]

Personal preference to some extent. Although weight distribution both statically and dynamically plays a factor.

I ran staggered before, although at a lot less power and I found it annoying mid-corner tbh. Car felt much more inclined to push on than it did to hold a line. I'm now running the same all round with more power and it's a lot more flexible and responds more neatly to throttle inputs as well.

Worth experimenting with.

Seems a lot of the Time Attack boys run a Square setup. The other advantage is being able to swap tyres front to back vise versa if I need to. I think the slimmer fronts on road cars improve steering feel and make them less inclined to tramline. That and cost.

[piman2k]

You typically run a narrower section at the front than at the rear on RWD, mostly because the fronts are undriven and so don't do as much work as say a FWD or AWD car.

Run a 265 up front and I would hedge my bets that you'd end up with a lot of tramlining on the road and a lot of scrubbing for no benefit.

[BLAKTOOTH]

You typically run a narrower section at the front than at the rear on RWD, mostly because the fronts are undriven and so don't do as much work as say a FWD or AWD car.

Run a 265 up front and I would hedge my bets that you'd end up with a lot of tramlining on the road and a lot of scrubbing for no benefit.

Driven or undriven, I'm not sure it makes that much difference. Obviously with a lot of power going through the rear axles you want a decent chunk of rubber in contact with the tarmac but when you're ripping it round a track the fronts are worked as hard if not harder. If tyre pressures are anything to go by the O/S front and rear were identical as were the N/S front and rear (Pressures were higher on the O/S due to Rockingham having considerably more/harsher L/H corners). Tyres wear regardless of width especially with the aggresive camber and toe I run. Tramlining I think I can live with, heavy or vague steering would not be good though.

[Zornyan]

I really don't see much benefit going wider. Wider doesn't normally equal more grip, you.may think that it's more rubber in contact with the road it's barely anything though in reality, also a wider contact patch means the weight is more spread out which in some cases means less grip.

Look at snow wheels for instance, a preferable size would be a 7j compared to a 10j. For example on my red s13 I was running oem wheels with 205 Bridgestone semi slicks on it, with full on drag launches I could get near enough 0 wheelspin and 300bhp, yet when we swapped to 295s on a 10j I could never get that same level of grip.

[BLAKTOOTH]

I really don't see much benefit going wider. Wider doesn't normally equal more grip, you.may think that it's more rubber in contact with the road it's barely anything though in reality, also a wider contact patch means the weight is more spread out which in some cases means less grip.

Look at snow wheels for instance, a preferable size would be a 7j compared to a 10j. For example on my red s13 I was running oem wheels with 205 Bridgestone semi slicks on it, with full on drag launches I could get near enough 0 wheelspin and 300bhp, yet when we swapped to 295s on a 10j I could never get that same level of grip.

How the tyre sits on the wheel also makes a difference. The rears at 255/265 sit flush whereas the 225/235 up front has a slight stretch. Moreso with road tyres as they don't have the stiff sidewalls R888's have. I don't think sticking with the same at the rear but going wider, only by a small amount, on the front will upset the car's handling too much. I'd be widening the stance as well as at the moment I have 255 rear with a 25mm spacer and a 235 with a 15mm spacer up front.

[Clarkey]

Wider will improve lateral grip more than traction. The tyres being driven makes a huge difference, look up traction circle!

[Zornyan]

Personally I prefer the steering feel of a staggered setup, I recently swapped from square all round on the e36 to 225 up front and 255 at the rear and it feels much more planted imo and balanced than it did before.

[BLAKTOOTH]

Personally I prefer the steering feel of a staggered setup, I recently swapped from square all round on the e36 to 225 up front and 255 at the rear and it feels much more planted imo and balanced than it did before.

On the road on road tyres I take it?

[Zornyan]

Yes but also when I ran track tyres on the s13 admittedly that was a good couple years ago but with most cars I've always preferred the feel and balance it gives. Never had any issues with grip either.

The worst for it was my mx5s as they are very sensitive to tyres and alignment. And that didn't like the square setup I had

[Scottie]

Of all the combinations I tried, I found the best for me was 235/45/17 front and 255/40/17 rear. I used this size on 888's and RSR's.

A 17 inch wheel is much better on a track or handling biased car than 18 inch wheels, and the 17's cover all the braking you need

[chrispy]

This is an interesting thread.

Can you fit a 265/35/18 R888 tyre on the front without Tubbing (or what ever its called) the inner arches?

[Scottie]

Why would you want a 265 wide tyre on the front?

[chrispy]

Look at the very first line of the opening Post.

[BLAKTOOTH]

This is an interesting thread.

Can you fit a 265/35/18 R888 tyre on the front without Tubbing (or what ever its called) the inner arches?

Not on my car. Well you can but you'll have some rubbing. That's why I'll be tubbing my arches as well as modifying the wings

[handsomedez]

Interesting reading

I'm still building my car but I've got 265 front and 285 rear on 11j all round, with tubbed front and rear arches and metal arch extensions welded on all round and smoothed in to look factory. Can't really contribute since I've never driven the car, it might be absolutely awful!
My only justifications for it are that I'm putting in an RB25 running 400+hp so the extra weight should help on 265 fronts, and it'll look awesome
That's why I'm interested in your 255 Federals Mr Tooth but I've run out of money just now. Currently I've got Pirelli PZero Rosso fronts and R888 rears just because that's what I had lying around. Once the car is running and I've driven it I can look at different tyre options.

[Evilchap]

Just to add my 2p to this one...

Working where I do I come across lots of thoughts and ideas on this.

I would suggest the 200SX is not a heavy car, and as such it is possible to over-tyre it.

This will depend on which tyres you are using, but if you use too large a tyre you will tend to find you have trouble getting and keeping heat in them, which means most of the time they'll run cold, and be a bit exciting to drive on, even on track.

I know Sprout and Justbutts, too people who ran/run pretty powerful S14as with square wheel setups, and close to 400hp each, doing track days quite often, I think run 235/40/17 or there about. I went to the RAF Valley track day in Sprout's S14a, and with Yokohama Advan Sport V103 road tyres in 235/40/17 the only quicker cars on the day were Bren in the V8 Skyline and an Impreza on slicks. We didn't struggle for grip, the limiting factor on the day was temperature - it was hot outside, and the oil and water after 10-15 minutes were getting too hot, so we would have to cool it down, until the bottom hose went on the radiator ending out day (and the engine).

I would think possibly you'll struggle to get a 265 working properly on the front, and as such will not get much if any benefit, and actually might lose some grip if you cant get them warm.

This is something Hondas really suffer from, they are very tyre sensitive, and need stiff sidewalls generally due to their suspension setup and relative lightness to get the maximum energy into the tread blocks to really make them come alive and handle as their owners require.

[Actual_Ben_Taylor]

Interesting reading

I'm still building my car but I've got 265 front and 285 rear on 11j all round, with tubbed front and rear arches and metal arch extensions welded on all round and smoothed in to look factory. Can't really contribute since I've never driven the car, it might be absolutely awful!
My only justifications for it are that I'm putting in an RB25 running 400+hp so the extra weight should help on 265 fronts, and it'll look awesome
That's why I'm interested in your 255 Federals Mr Tooth but I've run out of money just now. Currently I've got Pirelli PZero Rosso fronts and R888 rears just because that's what I had lying around. Once the car is running and I've driven it I can look at different tyre options.

Sounds like way too much wheel and tyre to me, especially on the front.

[MapBoy]

I have 18x9.5 with a 255/35 rsr on the front of mine. I've had a couple sketchy moments in the damp under steering on roundabouts, but other than that cant fault the front end grip. I let Dunc have shot of it at Snetterton. He thought the front end grip was phenomenal, "I can throw it in to the corner with no fear...it just grips and grips", his only issue was the 285 P-Zeros on the rear loosing grip and causing the back end to twitch.