Tyres, staggered vs Square (race track setup)

[BLAKTOOTH]

Just to add my 2p to this one...

Working where I do I come across lots of thoughts and ideas on this.

I would suggest the 200SX is not a heavy car, and as such it is possible to over-tyre it.

This will depend on which tyres you are using, but if you use too large a tyre you will tend to find you have trouble getting and keeping heat in them, which means most of the time they'll run cold, and be a bit exciting to drive on, even on track.

I know Sprout and Justbutts, too people who ran/run pretty powerful S14as with square wheel setups, and close to 400hp each, doing track days quite often, I think run 235/40/17 or there about. I went to the RAF Valley track day in Sprout's S14a, and with Yokohama Advan Sport V103 road tyres in 235/40/17 the only quicker cars on the day were Bren in the V8 Skyline and an Impreza on slicks. We didn't struggle for grip, the limiting factor on the day was temperature - it was hot outside, and the oil and water after 10-15 minutes were getting too hot, so we would have to cool it down, until the bottom hose went on the radiator ending out day (and the engine).

I would think possibly you'll struggle to get a 265 working properly on the front, and as such will not get much if any benefit, and actually might lose some grip if you cant get them warm.

This is something Hondas really suffer from, they are very tyre sensitive, and need stiff sidewalls generally due to their suspension setup and relative lightness to get the maximum energy into the tread blocks to really make them come alive and handle as their owners require.

Very interesting as I seem to have the exact opposite, too much heat in the tyres. Which is why Federal 595 RSR's and many other tyres have not worked for me. R888's in 235/255 have been the best tyre I've tried so far. Very good dry grip and they don't turn to jelly when they get warm. On the road, under normal driving or even fast road if you like the RSR/T1R etc are very good and 235/265 seemed a nice setup but when we're talking death by race track I think a wide, square setup will work very well.

[Evilchap]

RSR/T1R

Those 'should' be totally different tyres, the 595RS-R is a tyre aimed at track days mostly, the T1R is a very old design road tyre that cooks on track.

It might be worth if you can stretch to them trying to Yokohama A048, a proper trackday focussed tyre with a full motorsport contruction, before cutting the car up to fit wider tyres.

[Scottie]

One of the quickest ever sx's I've been in had 225/45/17 front and 255/40/17 rear A048's. Over 400bhp and superbly setup as track car. Front end grip was not an issue at all.

[zeppelin101]

Very interesting as I seem to have the exact opposite, too much heat in the tyres. Which is why Federal 595 RSR's and many other tyres have not worked for me. R888's in 235/255 have been the best tyre I've tried so far. Very good dry grip and they don't turn to jelly when they get warm. On the road, under normal driving or even fast road if you like the RSR/T1R etc are very good and 235/265 seemed a nice setup but when we're talking death by race track I think a wide, square setup will work very well.

What's your suspension geometry?

[BLAKTOOTH]

Those 'should' be totally different tyres, the 595RS-R is a tyre aimed at track days mostly, the T1R is a very old design road tyre that cooks on track.

It might be worth if you can stretch to them trying to Yokohama A048, a proper trackday focussed tyre with a full motorsport contruction, before cutting the car up to fit wider tyres.

A048, DZ03G, R888 will be what I stick with from now on fosho.

One of the quickest ever sx's I've been in had 225/45/17 front and 255/40/17 rear A048's. Over 400bhp and superbly setup as track car. Front end grip was not an issue at all.

Don't get me wrong, with 235/255 the car was glued to the tarmac at Snetterton. Wasn't quite as grippy at Rockingham but it was colder and I think Rockingham has less grip. Having said that, I don't believe putting a 265 up front will "over-tyre" the car. It will make it less inclined to understeer and give me the option of swapping my wheels around, should I need to. The handling might be slightly improved as well in that the track width front to rear will be much closer as in theory the fronts 50mm narrower at the moment.

[BLAKTOOTH]

What's your suspension geometry?

Aggressive

[zeppelin101]

Numbers? If it's too daft and you've not got any roll centre correction with a low car I wouldn't be surprised if you're overheating tyres.

May be worth investing in a pyrometer to check temperatures after a session.

[Evilchap]

A048, DZ03G, R888 will be what I stick with from now on fosho.

R888 although they look the business I would say are behind the Yokohama for sure, not sure on the Dunlops but they're likely a superior option as well.

[Evilchap]

A048, DZ03G, R888 will be what I stick with from now on fosho.

R888 although they look the business I would say are behind the Yokohama for sure, not sure on the Dunlops but they're likely a superior option as well.

[BLAKTOOTH]

R888 although they look the business I would say are behind the Yokohama for sure, not sure on the Dunlops but they're likely a superior option as well.

A048 and DZ03G are possibly better than R888's but they're also more expensive. R888's in 265/35/18 flavour come in at £1k a set. If you can get any of the others for similar money I'd be interested as I'm in need of some new tyres.

[Actual_Ben_Taylor]

Driftworks have the Federal FZ-201 Track for reasonable money (£888 for 4 x 265/35/18)

[BLAKTOOTH]

Driftworks have the Federal FZ-201 Track for reasonable money (£888 for 4 x 265/35/18)

Interesting, thanks.

[Evilchap]

A048 and DZ03G are possibly better than R888's but they're also more expensive. R888's in 265/35/18 flavour come in at £1k a set. If you can get any of the others for similar money I'd be interested as I'm in need of some new tyres.

They're more expensive because they're a better product.

A048 would be £1344 for 265/35/18 all round including VAT for a set of 4, so a fair bit more than R888s I am sorry to say

[piman2k]

Driven or undriven, I'm not sure it makes that much difference. Obviously with a lot of power going through the rear axles you want a decent chunk of rubber in contact with the tarmac but when you're ripping it round a track the fronts are worked as hard if not harder.

It makes all the difference if the axle is driven or not driven Lee, that's the very point.

Go have a look at a GT3-RS tyre sizes, or a 458. See if they're square all round.

[piman2k]

Can you fit a 265/35/18 R888 tyre on the front without Tubbing (or what ever its called) the inner arches?

It wouldn't fit, and it would be a complete waste of time. I have driven on 888's and +20mm wings with 235's on the front and 255's on the rear, you don't run out of grip.

A 265 on the front is absolute and total overkill. In fact, my next set may well be a 225 on the front.

[BLAKTOOTH]

It makes all the difference if the axle is driven or not driven Lee, that's the very point.

Go have a look at a GT3-RS tyre sizes, or a 458. See if they're square all round.

A good driver can control that with their right foot.

It wouldn't fit, and it would be a complete waste of time. I have driven on 888's and +20mm wings with 235's on the front and 255's on the rear, you don't run out of grip.

A 265 on the front is absolute and total overkill. In fact, my next set may well be a 225 on the front.

In your opinion.

[piman2k]

Well not really just my opinion, but the general consensus from the performance OEM manufacturers.

Plus, the wider you go on the front, the more geometry changes you have to make to compensate, the more camber you have to dial out to correct the contact patch. And that can affect your turn in significantly. It's not simply a case of wider front tyre = more grip. It completely changes the dyamic of the car.

Sure, it's not fair to say that every person will be happy or unhappy with the same set up, but when people like Porsche, Ferrari, BMW M Division and Mercedes AMG ALL build RWD sports cars (in track and road variants) and all have wider tyres than the front, you have to read into there being some serious thought in it.

Edit - adding more tyre also doesn't increase your track width. Track width is the distance between the centers of the wheel on the axle.

[BLAKTOOTH]

Well not really just my opinion, but the general consensus from the performance OEM manufacturers.

Plus, the wider you go on the front, the more geometry changes you have to make to compensate, the more camber you have to dial out to correct the contact patch. And that can affect your turn in significantly. It's not simply a case of wider front tyre = more grip. It completely changes the dyamic of the car.

Sure, it's not fair to say that every person will be happy or unhappy with the same set up, but when people like Porsche, Ferrari, BMW M Division and Mercedes AMG ALL build RWD sports cars (in track and road variants) and all have wider tyres than the front, you have to read into there being some serious thought in it.

Edit - adding more tyre also doesn't increase your track width. Track width is the distance between the centers of the wheel on the axle.

Road cars, fast/sporty/posh whatever, aren't just made to go fast. Cost and comfort and feel come into it. It's a compromise. If you look at motorsport, usually high end, the rules dictate what tyres they can use. Again this is for various reasons and sometimes to actually slow vehicles down. If you look at lower level racing, Time Attack, Nippon, M3 etc the rules on tyres are less strict and these modified road car's usually sport a 265 tyre minimum. Some all round others with even more out back. The TA car's have more power and development than my car for sure but they're using similar Japanese machinery. I also don't think a small step up from 235 to 265 at the front will completely ruin the handling of my car. It might not have that much of an affect at all but there's only one way to find out. I have some rubbing with the 235 so making extra room is necessary regardless. if the 265 doesn't work for me I'll drop back to a 235 and no harm done.

I also don't want any stretch, not that R888's stretch anyway, so a 265 is the correct width for the wheels I have (9.75j).

[zeppelin101]

It makes all the difference if the axle is driven or not driven Lee, that's the very point.

Go have a look at a GT3-RS tyre sizes, or a 458. See if they're square all round.

Those are two bad examples for comparison here though, what with the engines being in the back / middle of the car and the weight distribution associated with it.

I think there is only so wide that it is worth going and perhaps 265 is beyond that but it's not like it isn't worth trying.

I would suggest though that if you're overheating already quite wide tyres then you have another problem, be it geometry or something else.

[piman2k]

Road cars, fast/sporty/posh whatever, aren't just made to go fast. Cost and comfort and feel come into it. It's a compromise. If you look at motorsport, usually high end, the rules dictate what tyres they can use. Again this is for various reasons and sometimes to actually slow vehicles down. If you look at lower level racing, Time Attack, Nippon, M3 etc the rules on tyres are less strict and these modified road car's usually sport a 265 tyre minimum. Some all round others with even more out back. The TA car's have more power and development than my car for sure but they're using similar Japanese machinery. I also don't think a small step up from 235 to 265 at the front will completely ruin the handling of my car. It might not have that much of an affect at all but there's only one way to find out. I have some rubbing with the 235 so making extra room is necessary regardless. if the 265 doesn't work for me I'll drop back to a 235 and no harm done.

I also don't want any stretch, not that R888's stretch anyway, so a 265 is the correct width for the wheels I have (9.75j).

I like you mate but I don't think in this case you really have any idea what you're talking about.

You don't define ride and comfort with tyre width. And just because someone else does it in the aftermarket world, it doesn't make it good. I really dislike this internet ideology that OEM's do it because it suits them, not because it's good.

Ultimatley it's your call and if you want to go bigger, that's fine, but you can't try and pass it off as an excercise based on fact when almost every other car manufacturer has adopted the very strategy you're saying probably isn't any good. And if you like your 'aggressive' set up on geometry, be prepared to have to dial that out signifcantly to take another 30mm of tyre.