S15 takes Tsukuba lap record

[nash`s]

Wow, that is amazing. So much power from the SR20, yet so smooth.

What sort of transmission setup has he got? I cant make out if he is using a clutch pedal or not.

hollinger 6 speed sequential box no clutch needed on changing up although you still have to lift off accelerator as per usual. clutch is needed for downshifts. check out the vid i posted in the inspirational vid

They could easily gain 2-3 seconds by sorting out their aerodynamics.

how might you suggest they "sort out their aerodynamics"? like i said previously the only aero their not running is an underfloor and diffuser, the car seems to be working perfectly well with out them up until now id be surprised if suzuki san wasnt running a diffuser and flat floor for next years wtac. the mca ps13 seems to really benefit from a full flat undrside and big diffuser combo, and iirc the mca car was the only rwd to beat the scorch s15 this year.

im also intersted to see if hks will bring the c230r out of retirement to claim back the title. will be an interesting year in time attack next year me thinks

[piman2k]

Ben, drag does matter. Drag always matters.

[M.D.]

im going to put money on the fact that none of that aero is for show, i cant see much that would be anyway. its no more messy than an F1 car from a few years ago when they were still allowed to use the little winglets etc.

its a weigh off between ultimate downforce to keep the car on the ground at high speed in the corners and having as little drag as possible to allow the car to accelerate and get to high speed.

[piman2k]

Agreed with MD. Bren's car that you highlighted against Suzuki's is a classic example of the dilemma of aerodynamics and the Internet: there is no 'right' way, there are just different ways.

[Fake Ben Taylor]

im going to put money on the fact that none of that aero is for show, i cant see much that would be anyway. its no more messy than an F1 car from a few years ago when they were still allowed to use the little winglets etc.

its a weigh off between ultimate downforce to keep the car on the ground at high speed in the corners and having as little drag as possible to allow the car to accelerate and get to high speed.

With that much power and such a small circuit the drag wont matter as much as they have an excess of power to overcome it. Would he an issue on a bigger faster circuit but not so much here. Brens is much more suited to a fast circuit imo but that's probably what it was designed for.

You've gotta ask the question, where is the speed more important, straights and fast sweepers or the more technical corners, and its a different approach to each imo of course.

[clarity]

When you have that much power, drag doesn't matter, downforce does. None of the aero on this is for show. Clean and efficient isn't the way. Look at all the other quick cars....

Spot on, look at F1 cars.

[nash`s]

With that much power and such a small circuit the drag wont matter as much as they have an excess of power to overcome it. Would he an issue on a bigger faster circuit but not so much here. Brens is much more suited to a fast circuit imo but that's probably what it was designed for.

You've gotta ask the question, where is the speed more important, straights and fast sweepers or the more technical corners, and its a different approach to each imo of course.

exactly my thoughts ^

imo id still doubt brens would be no match for the scorch car regardless of what track. guess we will never know, plus its slightly unfair to put a downer on brens when its not even finished yet.

these two vids really put it into perspective regarding drag vs aero.

mca s13 car at this years wtac.



scorch s15 at this years wtac (same day same track)



the scorch car seems to really struggle for grip on some of the long sweepers compared to the mca car. in fairness the mca driver probably knows the track better, and the car was probably set up for that specific track where as the s15 is designed for blasting round tsukuba. but the vids gives you an idea of the advantages of flat floors+diffusers. dread to think what the scorch car would be like with a similar underneath.

however the mca from memory is running less power and is also over 100kg heavier, but its advantage over the scorch car is its flat floor aero package.

front



underneath



back




looks excessive but its all functional and was actually designed by someone who used to work in the aero department at maclaren f1.

[frisbee]

how might you suggest they "sort out their aerodynamics"? like i said previously the only aero their not running is an underfloor and diffuser, the car seems to be working perfectly well with out them up until now id be surprised if suzuki san wasnt running a diffuser and flat floor for next years wtac. the mca ps13 seems to really benefit from a full flat undrside and big diffuser combo, and iirc the mca car was the only rwd to beat the scorch s15 this year.

I would sort it out exactly how you described in your post, sorry I must have not seen where you originally said that.

But all the "internet experts" have weighed in now and quite clearly stated it'll be a waste of time, so he probably won't bother if he sees this thread.

Drag always matters, downforce always matters but also the dynamic aero effects - what happens when the pitch of the car changes when you apply the brakes or turn into a corner. Formula 1 cars have the luxury of 1000s of hours of CFD and wind tunnel time, for time attack, sprint, hillclimb cars, its best to just keep it simple and effective, get the basics right before slapping all the weird shite on, its impossible to just guess what effect it will have.

[zeppelin101]

Messy aero huh? You should tell that to the DTM boys from a few years ago who had far more outrageous aero than this car has and less power and were as far as I'm aware among the highest downforce producing tin tops of their time...

Clean lines do not make a high downforce machine, correctly directing air paths across the major downforce producing surfaces however, does.

[M200sex]

in that vid of the mca car the steering column is flexing all over the place.

[CNHSS1]

When i first watched the vid, its obvious theres more to come from the setup. Theres oodles of understeer, originally i thought this was too much rear wing as it was wsshing out in the faster corners, but its washing out in the lower speed stuff too, so its mechanical first although probably compounded by a rearward aero balance at higher speed.

Personally i think its a great car, but to be fair the same car witb same setup would grip and turn in differently on a warmer/colder day, so even when the sweet spots found for a given track, the conditions can change and bugger it all up.

Love to see it on proper slicks, reckon theres at least another 4-5 secs per lap to come

[frisbee]

Messy aero huh? You should tell that to the DTM boys from a few years ago who had far more outrageous aero than this car has and less power and were as far as I'm aware among the highest downforce producing tin tops of their time...

Clean lines do not make a high downforce machine, correctly directing air paths across the major downforce producing surfaces however, does.

Yes and your point is? They were constrained by regulations but with their huge budgets they could do "messy" that worked.

That MCA car a few posts up is exactly how to do a time attack car, simple and effective.

If I did go tell them, they would agree with me as it is common sense.

[piman2k]

Someone should link Under Suzuki to this thread, so he can be sure to make his car correct according to forum law.

[CNHSS1]

Lol

[Jay Tee]

Yes and your point is? They were constrained by regulations but with their huge budgets they could do "messy" that worked.

That MCA car a few posts up is exactly how to do a time attack car, simple and effective.

If I did go tell them, they would agree with me as it is common sense.

I'm pretty sure there are very knowledgeable people in this field that go for this record. And yet this setup seems to have worked the best as it holds the tuner record. So who are you to say its not correct?
It's not like its an easy record to beat, compared the time to the GT 500 record which is an out and out race car built from chassis up (51.8sec), the time is very good. This was a road car which has been modified...

[frisbee]

I'm pretty sure there are very knowledgeable people in this field that go for this record. And yet this setup seems to have worked the best as it holds the tuner record. So who are you to say its not correct?
It's not like its an easy record to beat, compared the time to the GT 500 record which is an out and out race car built from chassis up (51.8sec), the time is very good. This was a road car which has been modified...

Quick! Fly out to Japan and tell him his car is perfect and he doesn't need to changed anything.

It's quite obvious looking at the pics that the car needs a flat floor, better difuser and a general aero tidy up, Nash has already said that the guy is working on improving it.

I've posted a lot of this in the inspirational thread over the last couple days/weeks.

but definitely deserves its own thread imo, such a huge achievement from a privateer. and with out doubt he`s only going to go faster. from watching the video if he can manage to reduce the wheel spin out of turns 6 and 10 and hold a slightly better line through turn 12(easier said than done i know lol) i think he'd be touching keiichi tsuchiya arta nsx record (51.8). not bad considering he`s still on semi slicks and still without a rear diffuser/flat floor can't wait for battle evome next month, looking forward to seeing what the exceed s14 has in the way of upgrades as i know they've been working with new front splitters recently, and iirc they're now running a similar engine set up to the s15.

[Jay Tee]

Not once did I say his set up was perfect I was saying it has worked the best. You can't just pull out random figures saying he can easily lose 2-3 seconds.

[zeppelin101]

Yes and your point is? They were constrained by regulations but with their huge budgets they could do "messy" that worked.

That MCA car a few posts up is exactly how to do a time attack car, simple and effective.

If I did go tell them, they would agree with me as it is common sense.

My point is, you can't just look at a handful of photos and pull 2-3s out the air as if it was common sense. I'm not saying the thing is perfect but the right ideas are there and it's clearly working or he wouldn't have set the tuner record.

But what do I know, I'm just an "internet expert"

[M200sex]

http://vimeo.com/m/56055522 looks pretty planted but maybe with some sxoc help he can go 3 secs quicker??

[BeerBringer]

iirc the MCA car runns a dual-A-arm front suspension and Suzuki still runs McPhearson.
In that sense I like Suzukis car more because it's closer to the original car.

When the cars become to extreme I seam to loose some intrest in them. They stop beeing what they once was and might just as well be tubeframed siluetts. Time Attack grew out of tuned street cars that "anyone" could build. Stepping over to slicks would only increase the gap to the everage guy even more.