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Thread: Pics of my expanded ca18det oil pan.

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    Pics of my expanded ca18det oil pan.

    Pics of the pan shortly after welding, needs to be cleaned/painted/leak-tested. I wonder if I need to fit a anti-surge tray in there, and if so where?
    There's already a tray that I didn't removed that avoids much oil to flow backwards, can be seen in the 3rd pic.
    I also wonder how much cc this will give, I estimate around 700cc.







    Please comment
    -Rutger

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    Looks good. Or in fact it doesn“t but who cares, when it works..

    Quote Originally Posted by Rudi
    I also wonder how much cc this will give, I estimate around 700cc.
    So easy to test with water that just thinking about estimating it takes longer.

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    Yeah, it's not pretty but it does not need to be. I have another oil pan (currently leaking under my s13 ) when I'm replacing that one for this one I will measure the amount of fluid that goes in every pan

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    Member IrishPaddy's Avatar
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    explain to the dummy here what its for? cooling? more oil?

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    good work

    best way is not cut big hole to the pan, but only drill some small holes (let say 10mm), this will help to stop oil moving out of oil pump at corners...

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    ugly as hell, but it could work nice!!

    you could drill some holes in it for oil temp

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    Thanks

    I do want to drill 2 holes in it, one suck up point and an oil return point. An external oil cooler will pump the oil round through a cooler, but it will have it's temp. switch on the sandwhich plate. I'm not sure what pump to use, the diff pump could do it but it's a little small and heavy .
    Advantage of the external pump is that there's no oil pressure loss, and it doesn't require high-pressure oil hoses. The return point should be just above the normal oil level, so the oil in the cooler will stay there, increasing capacity even more.

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    Looks good - I'm intending to do the same to mine, with wings on both sides.

    I think what raddy is trying to say is rather than actually cutting the side of the sump when you add the extra section, just drill some holes and voila - one anti surge baffle. You do of course need to make sure that some of them reach the bottom so that you can drain all your oil during a change, and hence remove all those nasty bits of metal that kill your engine.

    For the benefit if irishpaddy: yes and yes - more oil means more ability to cool (it does of course also mean longer to warm up fully). The other reason is to create a larger volume of oil low down in the sump, and constrained so that during hard / prolongued cornering (e.g.drifting) there is still enough oil around the pickup to continue being pumped around the engine. Where I work we have a tilt rig where we fit engines and then run them at an angle - 45 degrees = 1g cornering force. If you imagine what happens to the oil when it is at 45 degrees, you can see that having the wings helps to ensure you don't end up with the pickup being in thin air - then aeration - then a nasty knocking noise....... Dry sumping is the ultimate - but done properly adding wings works for most stuff up to about 1.2g cornering / braking load, assuming your pickup is sensibly located.

    Finally as to using the seperate pump. Thats fine, but be absolutely sure that it is big enough, and that you have some kind of warning if you lose pressure (i.e it stops working) so you don't lose the engine too..... The biggest advantage of an electric pump is that you can put it on a timer so that after a shutdown it continues to pump oil around the engine, and particularly the turbo, which avoids many of the problems associated with oil deposition on the bearings, and hence increases turbo life. Personally though, I intend keep the mechanical pump and add a secondary electrical pump purely for run on cooling.

    Sorry it turned into war and peace, but hopefully its useful info

    Cliff

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    Guest Damo's Avatar
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    looking good and i may do this to

    damo

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    I cut away too much at first, so I had to do it with the big hole. I actually wanted to fit a v-style shaped plate in there, with the bottom of the v pointing to the turbo side of the sump. This should make flow towards the strainer easier but backwards harder. The downside of such a system is that during hard cornering, too much oil could go above normal level, creating new problems...

    I did thought about fitting another expansion to the other side as well, but it would be a little overkill for my s13. Would take too long to warm up for just the daily driving.

    Cliff; I don't think the pumping of the extra pump could do much for the turbo's life. See, the hot exhaust cooks the oil in the turbo up, so even if the oil in the sump is still recirculating through a cooler, it won't reach the turbo

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    Hi Rudi

    Exactly - thats why you plumb it so it pumps through the turbo

    The aim is not to cool all the oil, but just to keep some flow going through the turbo - doesn't need to be much, as there is obviously not much volume of oil in the turbo, which is why it cooks so quick in the first place (oh that and the red hot metal of course). Need to be careful about how its plumbed so that you don't get all the flow bypassing the turbo in favour of the pump - one way valve and restrictors may be required to get the balance right.

    Another alternative is to fit a water run on pump. This is common practice in modern turbo cars (e.g. VW Audi group products). Has a similar effect, and easier to do, but not quite so effective.

    By the way, I think I mis-read your original post - apologies. I thought you were talking about replacing the mechanical pump completely, hence my little rant. I've realised now you are talking about using a seperate oil cooler system, which seems like a sensible idea, but doesn't give the benefits above, as you pointed out.

    Let us know how it turns out

    Cliff

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    I had different reason to chop my sump, to reduce the depth for ground clearance. I have 'wings' both sides on mine and only cut the very bottom of the sump off, about 55mm from the notional bottom surface, then built the cheeks either side, so the only way oil can get through is under the original sides of the sump to reduce surge, pics in the link in my sig. Only one step away from it being dry sumped, a scavange pump from Pace (or what was Pace at the time) is about ~£160 which I considered but getting the return line back to the oil pump through the sump was getting too tricky and lots of cars run a cheeked sump like mine so went for this as an easier option. Other option is putting oil back in through another location on the block and not using the standard pump at all like I think cliff is suggesting. If you are pumping oil directly through the turbo you should be careful of the pressure you pump it through at, Bell states around 65psi IIRC, dont have the book to hand at the mo.

    edit, hope you clamped it to a block when you welded it to help reduce distortion, my first effort was a bit banana shaped. Also, it leaked like a seive, my mig skills arent that hot, especially welding thin sheet edge to edge. You will find yourself going round in circles chasing tiny pin-prick sized holes that you cant actually see, grinding and re-welding, I got a mate to tig my second effort and its perfect first go. Use paraffin or thinners to check for leaks. It slowly weeps through the pin prick holes.
    Last edited by Jeffers_S13; 10-02-2006 at 11:27.

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    Ignore me, my questions already been answered earlier in the thread

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    The welding was done in an auto body shop, and it lookes quite decent. Still need to test it for sure .

    The idea of the external pump would be really cool, it could really extend the turbo's life and avoid the problem of leaking oil seals due to too high oil pressure at high revs. It would also improve engine oil pressure as the oil feed to the turbo can be plugged of. It would require a sort of turbo timer like sytem that keeps the pump pumping for a few minutes after shut off.

    However, I'm doing this ca18 project on a budget, and I can't afford these extra's . I don't know where to get such a pump, does Pace sell them?

    Does anyone know if the pump from the diff would be adequate for pumping the oil through the cooler? If not, what pump should I get? Is there another car that it can be pulled of, or should I buy a new from Pace for example?

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    Have to admit I haven't got as far as trying to spec a pump yet. Diff cooler pump will probably do? Main issue i think is that it can cope with oil ( ) and with the temperature (max about 140C). Have a look at http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/produc...pcode=MOCWCP1B for a selection of pumps - but the prices are a bit steep!! Also check out http://www.thinkauto.com/oilpumps.htm

    To clarify, I'm not suggesting a totally seperate system for the turbo - the electric pump is a secondary pump, which is only used in situations where the mechanical pump is insufficient / not working i.e. during idle or when the engine has stopped, which is why there is normally some kind of valving/restricting required - something like a second pickup from the sump through the electric pump and tee'd into the turbo feed pipe, with a one way valve should do it.

    Now that you say it though - I'll ask opinions on a seperate system and see if anyones tried it.

    Cliff

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    Just to resurrect this thread...Id forgotten about it. Ive been trying to get a response from Pace about a suitable pump as Im contemplating dry sumping my kit car...again. Im still worried about surge in such a wide and flat, cheeked sump. Looking through various websites the 3 stage slim jim pump is most commonly used on various engines. So 2 stages/pumps scavenging to the tank and the 3rd stage feeding pressurised oil from the bottom of the tank to the engine ? not sure if this is how they are, or if the slim jim sucks on 2 through/along the body internally and the third is what feeds this scavenged oil to the tank. This would then mean the engine being fed via gravity from bottom of the tank back to the standard engine pump ? anyone clarify this for me ? this would be a total chew on as I mentioned ealier in the thread, as getting a feed to the oil pickup inside the sump would be very awkward.

    They also say that the pumps normally operate at about 1/2 engine speed so my initial idea to use a modified front pulley fitted with a proper drive pulley over the ac v-belt step isnt really gonna work as the pulley on the slim jim would need to be about 220mm diameter to reduce the speed enough ! they reckon 4500rpm at absolute tops for them. Other way is to fix another smaller drive pulley to the front of the bottom pulley but it would make it soooo long it will hit part of my spaceframe, but might work in an S13 shell. The speed I assume affects pressure, its not clear if there is an adjustable regulator on the pumps anywhere, in which case the speed if limited to 4500rpm isnt an issue as the regulator can be adjusted to give a peak somewhere in a useable region for the CA. The pump can be fastened to the AC mount holes with fabbed bracket. Oil I thought can then just be fed back in through a sandwhich plate and then just ditch the oil pickup on the standard oil pump so its just along for the ride, assuming my understanding of the slim-jim is correct. All a bit unclear at the mo but hopefully Pace will eventually get back to me.

    Just to whet your appetite, why cant there be something this lovely for the CA ??

    http://paceproducts.co.uk/php/produc...sump/fordzetec



    James
    Last edited by Jeffers_S13; 20-03-2006 at 17:37.

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    I ended up leaving the sump as it was in the pic, except for a few layers of Hammerite to prevent corrosion

    I dropped the idea of the external pump and pick up points, first cause I hate oil leakages (had them for way too long and don't want to run the risk of new ones) and the oil lines has to go under the chassis, too close to the floor. Also, it would be hard to bolt them up somewhere for support since there's nothing around the oil pan to hang them up on.

    Second problem is that the oil cooler I purchased (Mocal item) has these 1,1/16" fittings, and converting these to the 14x1,5 thread on the diff oil pump would be very expensive, plus the conversion to the plain 10mm oil lines...

    I have a new oil cooling idea in mind this time, will post that up as soon as I get some results.

    Here's a pic of the sump, the expanded area contained an extra 600+cc

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    Would it not be easier to use an "Accusump" system?

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    bit of a thread resurection again

    Going to do something similar to mine while its out for a rebuild but i'm thinking of 2 smaller wings either side of the sump and will follow the advice of drilling 10mm holes through to help prevent surge. Anything else I should be looking for? going to aim for a 500cc or so increase as I dont want to overdo it and have long warm up times

  20. #20
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    Are you tig'ing or mig'ing ? Id strongly recommend tig. You will spend hours and hours grinding and re-welding if you mig it as you'll get loads of pin prick holes that weep. I filled mine with water afterwards and there were 3 or 4 I just couldnt seem to seal up. So I made a new one and had a mate tig it instead, hey presto not a single leak. The best way to avoid leaks is to try and limit the number of welded seams. I folded mine from one sheet as much as possible, gets a bit awkward though getting access to make the last few bends. You need to think which bends to do first, and allow for the metal the bends use up so when the end bits are folded up, they still meet the edges of the other ones IYSWIM. Obivously, make a template out of cardboard first.

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