Pinking ?

[Tom_S14]

Quite a few S14s were pinking on the rollers today. I'm just wondering if we can come up with anything ?
I'm thinking the likely candidates are boost pressure, fuel and this lack/presence of this elusive boost pressure sensor.

Anyone with a car with a boost sensor fitted pink ?
Anyone with this sensor running std. boost pink ?

Tom

[Papa Lazarou]

Hi Tom. I have the mysterious boost pressure sensor. My car did not pink at all, but there was a little detonation right at the top end. At the moment have standard boost. Car is an import though so standard boost is higher.

I find it odd that some cars don't appear to have a pressure sensor - it is shown in the service manual diagrams. No notes are there about it being an optional item! I would have thought it would be important for the ECU to monitor the boost??

[SteveCarter200]

I asked the RR operator about the detting problem that a lot of the S14s were having and the impression I got was that it isnt just down to a lack of fuelling it was also that the timing had not been altered to suit the exhaust and filter mods (and hence slightly increased boost).




------------------
Grampa Steve (aged 30 1/4)
Blue '89 S13, T28, HKS stuff, Pipercross.
266.5 bhp @ Interpro, 13.77s @103mph Qutr http://www.300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/biggrin.gif
TC is for girlies http://www.300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/smile.gif
Poor as a church mouse thats had his stash of cheese stolen
Car disintegrating around me.

[Johnny]

Yup fueling ... if you retard the timing too much, off boost the car is extreemly sluggish, so you need to up your fuel rate.

[Nick_Walczak]

I thought it was too good to be true that you could just crank up the boost without any ill effects. What sort of boost can you safely run if you use super unleaded all the time?

[Rossy]

The RR Operator suggested a Unichip and a long tune up on the RR. He backed off early on my run for safetys sake due to the detonation/pinking (are these the same thing?). He said that the ignition timing would be sorted with the fitting/programming of the Unichip. John D76 had the same issues...so maybe it worth getting one fitted to all S14s after a few mods!

[geoff_s14]

Originally posted by Tom_S14:

I'm thinking the likely candidates are boost pressure, fuel and this lack/presence of this elusive boost pressure sensor.
Tom

What's all this about?

------------------
Geoff
Emerald S14a

http://www.animfactory.com/animations/transportation/cars/mirror_md_clr.gif

[Nick_Walczak]

ROSS - what mods have you got?

This is weird because I've not heard many S14 owners mention that they have any kind of chip or fuelling/timing corrector.

[JohnD76]

I'm running standard boost and was pinking/detonating up the rev range. The operator backed off at 212hp.

I think I need to retard the timing a little and things should be groovy. Am most interested in a Unichip though, did some research yesterday and it loks really good. But is quite a bit of cash.

Have just got my boost controller, so will probably take the car to ND/Interpro to get this and a Unichip fitted and setup. When I have found the funds to do this, I will let you know how I get on.

In my case, I think retarding the timing at the mo will some the pinking problem. Without the DSBC that is. When the boost controller goes on, I have a feeling I am going to need a unichip too. Or am I just trying to convince myself to spend nearly £700 on a box of tricks? http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
John S14a - Pinking like a good'n
http://mysmilies.com/s.php?action=random&cat=evil

[Nick_Walczak]

John - I don't think you need to change the timing @ standard boost. A high flow filter and exhaust would lean off the fuel though so that would need to be corrected. What colour are your plugs?

Mebbe there is a cheaper way to correct underfuelling.

[Dark S14]

My car also detonated higher up the rev range when the boost was increased slightly. The tuning place i took it to, recommended a unichip to iron out these problems and from what i understand this would remove the need for an AFR. Anyone know where to get unichips at the right money ??

[Rossy]

Nick,

Both John and myself had the same issues on the rollers yesterday...mine was stopped at 212BHP though the operator expected it to be around 260BHP http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/smile.gif but I want/need to get the ignition timing sorted out to stop the detonation....

I currently have a T28 Hybrid @ 17PSI..



------------------
Ross
'97 MANUAL S14a
HKS Super Dragger Exhaust
HKS Induction Kit
HKS Iridium Plugs
ND Turbo Actuator
ND T28 Super Hybrid Turbo
Eibach Springs
Skyline R33 330mm Brake Discs with Brembo Calipers
18'' Alloy Wheels
Clear Front and Side Indicators

www.geocities.com/golders_uk/VCRossCownleys200SX.html

[JohnD76]

Originally posted by Nick_Walczak:
John - I don't think you need to change the timing @ standard boost. A high flow filter and exhaust would lean off the fuel though so that would need to be corrected. What colour are your plugs?

Mebbe there is a cheaper way to correct underfuelling.

Nik,

I think I should just be able to retard the timing a little and all will be well. But have got a boost controller sitting at home, that needs fitting ASAP http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/biggrin.gif

Once this is done, I think I am going to need something like a unichip.

------------------
John S14a - Pinking like a good'n
http://mysmilies.com/s.php?action=random&cat=evil

[Rossy]

Sorry Dark, missed your post...

ND can supply/fit/program a Unichip for £645 and this should iron out the creases!

Maybee we can get a group buy thing going on these???

[Bean]

I was told my car was fuelling perfectly and holding boost right up high revs.

Also told the boost would continue to rise if I removed the CAT and could expect another 10bhp! http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/smile.gif

I've got the Boost Pressure Sensor, who else has apart from me and Papa_Lazarou?

------------------
Burgundy 95 S14, K&N Induction Kit, Blitz Nur-R Zorst.
224.5 bhp at Interpro 28/10/2001
http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/rides/beans14/nissan3m_180_135.jpg

Linux/Solaris Trainee Guru

[KTMs14]

How come none of you heard the pinking before the RR session?

I have the ND 240 kit fitted by Simon and now running at constant 16psi with no pinking that I know of. ND retarded the timing.

Only problem I have is a horrible Mongoose resonance through the car, now on the second system.

[Rossy]

KTM,

I could not even hear it at the RR! It occured at the top of the rev range, bear in mind that most people cant hear a thing over exhaust/induction. Also the RR operators are themselves tuned in to know what to listen out for.

[Actual_Ben_Taylor]

Guys you all saw Rich put out 277bhp and he's got a completely standard fuel system, ecu and plugs, there must be more to it than just the fueling...

[Nick_Walczak]

Lots of conflicting stories.

Pinking and detonation is bad for your engine. I am determined to avoid it when planning mods.

One thought: If you disconnect the lambda sensor (eg. with de-catted exhaust), what effect would this have?

[This message has been edited by Nick_Walczak (edited 29-10-2001).]

[JPold]

My mongoose is doing that!
It's a full turbo-back stainless system with twin 3.5" rolled pipes and a no cat.
Had a mate of mine who works in a tyre garage have a look at it coz it keep falling off the rubber clips!
He said that i've got a small hole in the cat replacement pipe, just I havent got round to getting it dealt with yet.

Has anyone else seen any problems with these?

[Johnny]

Originally posted by JP:
My mongoose is doing that!


Has anyone else seen any problems with these?

Oh god yes ! ...... best mod I ever did to the car performance wise, but next time I am not going for a goose. ... There doesnt seem to be a mechanic in the country that can keep the thing attached to the car (always coming off its bungs) and after every couple of weeks having been re-adjusted, it starts to buzz as it gets hot, take it to a garage, by the time it cools down, it doesnt do it any more, if they do catch it in time, the cure only lasts 2 weeks and then "BAAAAH PSHHHT BAAAAAAAAH PSHHHT BAAAAAAAAAAAAH PSHHHT CHA CHA CHA CHA BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ POP BZZZZ."

[JPold]

Has anyone sucessfully managed to get this replaced for another of a different brand or fixed the loudness of it on a long term basis?

[Rossy]

"Yup fueling ... if you retard the timing too much, off boost the car is extreemly sluggish, so you need to up your fuel rate."

So, will a Unichip solve this fueling problem?

[Johnny]

Up to a point yes ... but there will come a time when your fuel pump just canna doit capt'n. ... I think a new stock item should be good for 300bhp ish ... however mine has done 47000miles and is begining to falter.

Also around the 300bhp mark your fuel pressure regulator gives up as well

[Tom_S14]

There's too many variables here aren't there ?
I wouldn't say disconnecting the lamda sensor would be a good idea. I'm not sure what it would do, most probably over-fuel in closed loop mode during cruising and idling, but it wouldn't increase fuelling under accelleration.
I don't see any evidence of my car underfuelling at high revs (std. boost with filter and exhaust).

Didn't apex or someone like them sell a gadget you could mess with the AFM signal for different rev bands to change the fuelling ? Is that an AFR ?

Tom


[This message has been edited by Tom_S14 (edited 29-10-2001).]

[Johnny]

The problem with upping the fuel pump and FPR only though is it applies more fuel accross the whole range, so you will run rich at low rmp ..... bad for fuel consumption.

This is again where the unichip comes into play, it can re-maps your ecu, so you use less fuel at low rmp and supplies more fuel at higher rmp ....... so Ideally if you want BHP around the 300 mark you need pump, fpr and unichip.


I think ?

[Rossy]

Johnny, I think my car must be under-fueling then as the power tends to drop off early if I pull away quickly in first and second (only if I really boot it). My standard fuel pump has done 70,000 as far as I know.

Would it be worth upgrading just replacing with a standard Nissan part? Also, could this be attributing to the pinking?

[JohnD76]

Ok then,

Group buy on Group A fuel pumps and Uni chips then?

http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
John S14a - Pinking like a good'n
http://mysmilies.com/s.php?action=random&cat=evil

[Rossy]

Sounds good to me...I will call Simon Norris and find out how much a upgrade fuel pump is!

So...Decat Pipe, GTR Splitter, MSTT, Pillar mout Boost/Pressure Gauge, Unichip and Fuel pump.

That should piss the missus off!

http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/wink.gif

[Tom_S14]

I reckon one of you lot should stick a multimeter on your lambda sensor... it's pretty easy to do. You'll know for sure if you're running lean or not before you start throwing money at it.

Tom

[JPold]

Sorry to sound dense, but what connections on the sensor should I connect my multimeter to and what readings am I expected to get off it?

Cheers,
JP

[JPold]

Please delete this post!! (our proxy servers are sometimes tempremental and i posted it twice!)

[This message has been edited by JP (edited 29-10-2001).]

[Johnny]

Originally posted by Ross:

Would it be worth upgrading just replacing with a standard Nissan part? Also, could this be attributing to the pinking?



Eeeech, I am going through the same dilema .... I have decided the way forward is to upgrade as its the safest bet and will be good for future upgrades, Norris's fuel pump is £175 and the same for an FPR.

The fuel pump will certainly help towards pinking, but I think the FPR will do more ... ti allows the base line pressure to be adjusted , increasing the volume of fuel acting on the back of the injectors, giving you a richer run ..... essential under high boost.

but it is alot to spend if it doesnt cure the problem, so I am going to book myself in and get someone who knows what they are talking about to guess this problem ....

in the meantime, I think some of you should start experimenting with pumps/chips/regulators and report back with your findings .... going on that info, I will make my mind up what to get ....... even though I know its going to be ALL 3.

[Dark S14]

I've just bought a grp A fuel pump and i've hopefully got a FPR on the way. I'm hoping to fit these and have the car RR'd within the next couple of weeks, so i'll let you know the outcome. I might have a unichip fitted at the same time depending on how it all goes.

[Dark S14]

I've just bought a grp A fuel pump and i've hopefully got a FPR on the way. I'm hoping to fit these and have the car RR'd within the next couple of weeks, so i'll let you know the outcome. I might have a unichip fitted at the same time depending on how it all goes.

[Papa Lazarou]

Does anyone know anything about or have any experience of the HKS FCON "S" ECU? Would it be as good as a Unichip and how many places know how to set them up?

I'm not going for one yet - got my heart set on an FMIC as the next mod.....

[Daniel san]

I was asking the guy at Interpro about the F-con5. He said that it didn't have as many adjustment points as the unichip.

Worth looking into though.

------------------
Dan
Owner of www.puresx.co.uk (http://www.puresx.co.uk) - and the BB @ http://pub51.ezboard.com/bpuresx - Dedicated to the 200SX.

'98 Saphire Blue S14
With a few Blitz and HKS bitz bolted on.
233.5bhp @ Fly / 184bhp @ Wheels - Standard boost.
0-60 in 6.44secs @ TRAX 2001
1/4 mile 14.7 @ Santa Pod, Oct 14th 2001.

[Tom_S14]

JP,
From memory there are two white wires and one black one coming off the lamda sensor. I guess the two white ones are for the sensor heater, and the black one is the output signal. To check, just warm the car up, leave it to idle, get a multimeter out, connect earth to any earth point on the car. The signal line you want to look at should be oscillating around 0.5V. Doesn't matter if you connect up to the wrong one while you're looking for it, it won't do any harm.
Then just get a couple of bits of wire, stick the multimeter in the car, thrash it down a road. The sensor voltage is >0.5 V if it's running rich, <0.5V if it's running lean. I think you'd be aiming to run pretty rich at high revs under full load, anything under 0.7v might be cause for concern.

Tom

[David_S14]

Originally posted by JP:
Had a mate of mine who works in a tyre garage have a look at it coz it keep falling off the rubber clips!

Has anyone else seen any problems with these?

Mines been OK.
One trick I used to stop the exhaust hangers coming out of the rubber hangers is put a 10mm jubilee on the end of the hangers once through the rubbers. You can position the clip where you like to match where your goose hangs.



------------------
David
"Purplish Blue Pearl" 1995 S14
K&N,Mongoose,HKS Fuel pump, Blitz FATT-S,Racelogic Adj. Traction Control & Tree.

[SteveCarter200]

Just a suggestion, seeing as you all seem to have ignored my previous post about your pinking problem, ADJUST YOUR TIMING!!.
Its free, you can do it yourself and it will sort the pinking problem. Yes, the off boost performance will suffer but only very slightly. You cannot get away from this trade off without spending loads of cash.

Trust me on this, my fuelling was spot on at Interpro, with no pinking but if I altered the timing I would get pinking. Think about it, youve changed the exhaust and filter so youve got a bit more boost (2psi or so, still significant), the AFM and lambda sensor will alter the fuelling to match (thats what its there for) so the only thing thats left untouched is the timing which you lot seem to be ignoring.

Do it now before I rant again! http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/biggrin.gif

If any of you lot really need an FPR give Matt_S a shout. He can supply exactly the same item as ND but considerably cheaper, nearer the £100 mark. Thats IF you need one. I'm running 100bhp over standard and still have the stock FPR.

Steve,(S13),
trying to save you some cash.

[andyf]

Originally posted by Ross:
The RR Operator suggested a Unichip and a long tune up on the RR. He backed off early on my run for safetys sake due to the detonation/pinking (are these the same thing?).


Pinking = Preignition,
Detonating = Knocking

I think. Sounds good to me.. I take it detonation is the next disasterous stage after pinking...

[andyf]

by the way I got a 230bhp with spot-on fuelling and no pinking. It should have been more like 250-270bhp but unfortunately being skint and stuff means no redline-happy actuator and big boost loss. Also I have no idea what my timing is, but with the superlight flywheel I don't really care about it as the car is driven off boost in traffic and round town and sluggish-ness doesn't really bother me in those conditions!

------------------
Site Admin of Silvia-S13.Net (http://www.silvia-s13.net) and BB (http://www.silvia-s13.net/board)
Big Garrett powered S13
229.5 bhp flywheel, 187bhp wheels, loses boost top end
Spits flames, breaks exhausts

[Johnny]

Ahhh ...... now this is where I confuse things ......... I got 244.5bhp with no pinking, however I reached 4500rpm and the curve stopped going up and levelled out.

It should have continued up to 6000rpm (aprox 280bhp) before dropping ... why didnt it.

the RR guys thought "fueling", need fuel pump and unichip.

I didnt pink because my ignition was well retarded, BUT ... I just didnot have enough fuel to run the car. ????

[Nick_Walczak]

OK, next question:

How much boost can you run before you have to start retarding the timing to prevent pinking?

[Paul_S13]

Originally posted by Johnny:
Ahhh ...... now this is where I confuse things ......... I got 244.5bhp with no pinking, however I reached 4500rpm and the curve stopped going up and levelled out.


It stopped going up because the standard intercooler is crap.

And to back SteveC up.....just knock the timing back a few degrees to stop the pinking, it sounds like you lot want to throw money away!

I have a fpr and mine was overfuelling badly, there not the answer your looking for, nor is the unichip, you only need one of these if you go over 290 bhp!

[Deano_s14]

Originally posted by SteveCarter100:

Just a suggestion, seeing as you all seem to have ignored my previous post about your pinking problem, ADJUST YOUR TIMING!!.
Its free, you can do it yourself and it will sort the pinking problem.

Do it now before I rant again! http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/biggrin.gif

If any of you lot really need an FPR give Matt_S a shout. He can supply exactly the same item as ND but considerably cheaper, nearer the £100 mark. Thats IF you need one. I'm running 100bhp over standard and still have the stock FPR.

Steve,(S13),
trying to save you some cash.

"WE" s14's cannot adjust the timing ourselves and its a bugger trying to find someone that can.

[Paul_S13]

Originally posted by Deano_s14:
"WE" s14's cannot adjust the timing ourselves and its a bugger trying to find someone that can.


http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/confused.gif


Do you mean you don't know how or are unwilling to try it yourself?.

You adjust the timing in exactly the same way as the S13.

[Johnny]

Originally posted by paul_s13:
It stopped going up because the standard intercooler is crap.


My HKS FMIC I hope is not crap http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/frown.gif
So I dont think the Intercooler was an issue here.



------------------
'97 S14a Manual
K&N pod, Mongoose, HKS FMIC, Eibach springs, uprated disks &pads, boost 17psi. ND dump valve, Giant pigeon wastegate noise

[JohnD76]

Originally posted by SteveCarter100:

Just a suggestion, seeing as you all seem to have ignored my previous post about your pinking problem, ADJUST YOUR TIMING!!.

Steve,(S13),
trying to save you some cash.

Steve,

My pinking was defo caused by Timing, since it was advanced the day before. Just to show your not being ignored. http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/biggrin.gif

Cheers,


------------------
John S14a - Pinking like a good'n
http://mysmilies.com/s.php?action=random&cat=evil

[JohnD76]

Originally posted by Johnny:
My HKS FMIC I hope is not crap http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/frown.gif
So I dont think the Intercooler was an issue here.



Perhaps your timing needs a slight advancement to iron out the flat spot? Get the car on the rollers again and get it tuned.




------------------
John S14a - Pinking like a good'n
http://mysmilies.com/s.php?action=random&cat=evil

[Paul_S13]

Originally posted by Johnny:
My HKS FMIC I hope is not crap http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/frown.gif
So I dont think the Intercooler was an issue here.



Ahh, I didn't know you had one of them......maybe a weak
actuator spring?

[Johnny]

hmmm .. the ND actuator is only a few months old, but I suppose it could still go, how could I tell if was the actuator ? ...... there is so real boost drop (well a slight loss from 17 to 15.5psi ... but that I was sure was the inefficiant stock turbo)

"Advance the timing" ... Noooooooo ... I cant bring back the dreaded pinking

[JohnD76]

So under what cicrumatances (?!?) would you advance the timing?

[Johnny]

I guess I would advance the timing back to where it should be when I had a good enough fueling to allow me to do so with out it pinking.

This I assume is now the full circle of argument and comes pack to needing either and or a chip/pump/fpr.

Arse.

I think you are right .. get on a dedicated RR session and have the car properly diagnosed and tuned .... its the only way to be sure. ... all this second guessing is costing me money.

[Rossy]

I agree, worried about driving my car at all at the moment...I'm gonna give Norris a bell about the Unichip and maybe get it back down to Interpro.

It was ND that adjusted it initially and the thought me doing it myslef is frankly scary.

http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/frown.gif

[KTMs14]

Ross,
Did ND fit the actuator and retard the timing for you initially?

[Paul_S13]

To retard the ignition you undo the three 10mm bolts on the crank angle sensor and turn it clockwise by 0.5 - 1mm and do them up.

The crank angle sensor is right at the front of the engine, its the silver circle with the multiplug connected to it

[Rossy]

KTM,

Yes Simon did it, but its been feeling fine. He's usually really good so I'm thinking it may eb down to my fuel pump on its last legs!

[KTMs14]

Ross,
My S14a only has 27k miles so hopefully fuel pump etc should be ok.

I think a trip to the RR might be in order as it gets driven quite hard with 16psi boost.

Where are you getting the RR set up done?

[Tom_S14]

My fuel pump lasted till well over 100k miles, I think you'd be unlucky if it was giving you problems but it's always possible.
Fuel pressure regulator ? Might be worth checking.

Tom

------------------
1996 Blue/Green S14 (manual)
K&N cone filter
2.5" Tube-torque Cat Back Exhaust.
TechTom MDM-100
Race-Technology AP-22
http://tom.marshall.tripod.com

[Deano_s14]

Originally posted by paul_s13:

http://300zx.co.uk/200sx/ubb/confused.gif


Do you mean you don't know how or are unwilling to try it yourself?.

You adjust the timing in exactly the same way as the S13.


According to our manual you need to plug it in to the big scary computer and put it into 'ignition timing adjust' mode. Otherwise when you undo the three bolts and move it about the ecu just adjusts it back to where it was.
I hope i'm wrong cos if so i'll have a go myself, maybe someone else can confirm i'm reading it right in the manual. (The pdf file that everyone on heres got)
Ta!


------------------
1995 S14, ND boost actuator, NGK cold plugs, K&N cone, Bailey DV26 Evo piston dump valve, CAI Boost gauge, 230bhp@15psi.

[Rossy]

KTM,

It'll prob go back down to Interpro after the Unichip is fitted, IF I get it fitted...after reading Dans post re. Abbey Motorsport I'm reallY confused...still awaiting a call back from ND though!

MAYBE WOULD SHOULD POST ON DANS THREAD FROM NOW ON!