View Full Version : Is this the most stupid Microsoft decision yet?
So, Microsoft are going to remove Internet Explorer from all European copies of Windows 7, forcing people to download it from their web-site. That will be a neat trick, when they haven't got a web browser :wack:
Linky (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8096701.stm)
Fair enough if there were decent commercial offerings available, but how many "paid for" browsers are there? None worth having. So what the hell is the point of it all other than making lawyers rich?
What a colossal waste of time and money :rolleyes:
Clouder_sx
12-06-2009, 17:23
I'm all up for them un-integrating it.
It was only last week i found out IE is integrated into Vista when fixing a mates laptop. I use XP myself. He had issues with pop-ups in IE, even though all his browsing is in Firefox :wack: an easy fix would have been to disable IE ofcourse.......... but not on Vista :rolleyes: it's impossible. So many many hours later i stopped it from doing it... Thanks M$ :thumbs:
weiner_patrol
12-06-2009, 17:26
It is because they were fined by the EU over unfair advantage in business is it not?
I am definately for un-integrating it
its not really a microsft decission, its the EU saying its against competition laws etc,
its the EU being stupid, micro soft had beeter remove everything Notepad, Explorer, Recycle bin etc just incase the EU say's they are against competition laws.
TBH you do have a choice, use it or not, i dont like IE and havnt used it at home for years, but i do have a install disc with the EXE files of all my "essential" software i use for when i have ot restore any of my PC's
sideways14a
12-06-2009, 17:32
Yes its because of the EU ruling.
IE8 in win7 is a lot better to be fair, its not like previous versions that utterly sucked donkey balls in a big way. Its actually half decent and fine for most home uses/plebs.
Personally i use FF and thats my first download on a new build.
In this case i would expect that the IE system files are already on the machines HDD and the "install icon" on the desktop will just sort of err... activate it. It may pull some stuff from Microsoft but most of IE is already on the machine.
Windows 7 is great whether you run internet scraper or not though....
It was not a fine, it was a robbery. (and I don't like MS at all)
EU just saw a company with a lot of money and extracted the most out of it.
If EU had balls and tue anti-monopoly intentions it would mandate open source in the public administration like some developing country did.
But by un-integrating it, you add an extra hurdle to the millions upon millions of ordinary users who just want to turn their computer on and have the internet working. Put yourself in the shoes of an ordinary Joe and see how annoying it would be to have to download a web browser rather than just "have it there".
Are the EU going to insist that Apple remove their web browser as well?
If there was a commercial gain to be had for another company, then fair enough. But nobody pays for web browsers any more, so it's a complete waste of effort and money, IMHO :nod:
It was not a fine, it was a robbery. (and I don't like MS at all)
EU just saw a company with a lot of money and extracted the most out of it.
If EU had balls and tue anti-monopoly intentions it would mandate open source in the public administration like some developing country did.Bingo :thumbs:
sideways14a
12-06-2009, 17:47
The EU have been at it again with Intel this time, just look at the thumping they have got for there (admittedly appalling) practices a few years ago against AMD. Problem is where does this money go to... lets have a guess the EU... :nod: not the company involved :no:
The way they should have done it is insist microsoft gives the users a set of install icons for each of the main browsers, the end user can pick the one they want to start with.
Media player will be next lol :wack:
Wolvreen
12-06-2009, 17:53
Perhaps they could have a rubbish limited functionality browser installed for free.
With rubbish fonts, no images apart from a picture of smarmy Tony Blair on it.
The result? Forces everyone to download a real browser.
This isn't going to be a problem for the average user. I'm sure resellers will choose to install IE and Media Player (which they're allowed to do ) and then Joe Schmoe will still have their PC as before.
The people this will affect are the geeks amongst us who are happy to buy and install an OS themselves. For those people I'm sure it won't be a huge hassle to install a browser ;)
Dave
Media player will be next lol :wack:
Don't joke, as I understand it Media Player is included in the removal!
EDIT:
These 12 Windows 7 packages will ship at the same time as a further six versions of Windows 7 that are destined for Europe - Windows 7 N, an edition without Windows Media Player that will now also be missing IE.
From: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/11/microsoft_windows_ie_sku_europe/
Dave
So, Microsoft are going to remove Internet Explorer from all European copies of Windows 7, forcing people to download it from their web-site. That will be a neat trick, when they haven't got a web browser :wack:
I e-mailed the Euro Competition Commission after their last hissy fit about it, asking how exactly I would source any of IEs competitors without actually having IE as download was pretty much the only way they are distributed. They couldn't care about the practicalities, all they are bothered about is enforcing their rules which were precedented with their judgement on media player. Typical fcuking Euro medaling with their heads up their arses and no doubt it will eventually spell the end for wordpad, solitaire, paint etc. :rolleyes:
I think I might vote UKIP for the general election if we ever get one.....
Tbh, the people that would choose to change browsers are more than capable of getting a copy without having to use ie. I'm sure that the pc sellers will be packaging a browser of some description like they do with all the other software they package for the ones that aren't capable.
It's not really the point though, it makes things less straightforward. I also haven't heard of any Linux distributions having to dump FF and at a wild guess Macs come with Safari installed? The point is the vast majority of consumers want to set up their PC and be able to use it for a range of purposes from the off without having to fanny about installing 16 different apps for everything!! It may not be in the best interests of competition but it's certainly in the best interests of consumers who are generally less tech savvy.
New200guy
12-06-2009, 19:12
if you can download any other program to replace IE, Window Media Player, etc, what's the big deal. I mean honestly. I used IE to downloan Firefox and haven't used IE again. MS never forced me to us IE.
Guys, this isn't going to affect the average consumer, don't worry about it.
Dave
if you can download any other program to replace IE, Window Media Player, etc, what's the big deal. .
The big deal is you need to download your own browser !!! ... it doesnt sound like much, but you try downloading a browser without a browser in the 1st place to use to download it. :wack:
granted you can use FTP to down load one, but thats only going to happen if you have use of another browser somewhere that you can use to find out an ftp adress and where the browser is in order to download it.
so what I am basically saying ..... how do they expect you average mong to download a browser if they dont supply an internet browser for them to do so ?
voodoo_melon
13-06-2009, 10:44
There will be a shortcut on the desktop to download and install IE I expect. Average Joe can just click that and it'll do the rest on it's own.
In what ways is FF superior to IE?
Clouder_sx
13-06-2009, 11:02
In what ways is FF superior to IE?
It's quicker and less prone to spyware/adware for starters.
Duff Man
13-06-2009, 12:48
It's quicker and less prone to spyware/adware for starters.
How is it quicker? even loading a webpage on a pentium 4 is instant :D
I've always used IE and never been troubled by spyware or adware, the more recent versions have been very cautious with pop ups asking do you wish to proceed when anything slightly risky is about to happen (pain in the arse tbh). :wack:
I'm all for Windows 7 but I want to buy the version with IE 8/Media player included :)
sideways14a
13-06-2009, 12:51
Well IE8 has shortened the gap between the browsers somewhat, but i still prefer FF
But when your talking about IE 6/7 then bloody hell its rubbish in comparison. Full of holes, slow, prone to crashing, likes reading gobbledegook, slow, crap er...
There are plenty of browsers out there now, some offer differences but they all tend to do the same thing...Browse the web. Some are much faster than others.
IE8
Firefox
Opera
Safari
Chrome
How is it quicker? even loading a webpage on a pentium 4 is instant :D
Yes there is a massive difference when loading pages between the older browsers and more modern stuff, the speed that graphics are rendered, frames and tables organised and cache's read are all much quicker thesedays on the good browsers.
How many people are actually THAT bothered by the speed at which a page appears? I mean, really truly bothered to the extent that they fly off the handle if a page takes 2 seconds to load instead of 1 second. Honestly, everybody is so "it's got to be instant, or it's shit" obsessed these days. It's ridiculous :nod:
If you give a customer a computer and say "by the way, to do anything with the internet, you've got to install this first" their reaction is going to be "but, I've been able to surf the internet immediately for the last 11 years, so why the change?". It's going to aggravate the normal, everyday, end-user and will do Microsoft absolutely no favours whatsoever. This is why I think it is possibly the most stupid decision they have made in a long time :nod:
My other gripe is the absence of Outlook Express/Windows Mail in Windows 7. At the moment, you have to download/install MSN Live Mail. And it's shit to be quite honest. Why take away something that just works FFS :rolleyes:
How many people are actually THAT bothered by the speed at which a page appears? I mean, really truly bothered to the extent that they fly off the handle if a page takes 2 seconds to load instead of 1 second. Honestly, everybody is so "it's got to be instant, or it's shit" obsessed these days. It's ridiculous :nod:
Believe it or not, there are still a lot of areas in the UK where broadband speed is less than 1Mbps. I can sometimes only connect at about 0.3Mbps so loading a page on Chrome can take 8 seconds, IE could take 15 seconds. Imagine trying to browse an online catalogue at that speed!! The speed is maybe not that relevant if you have a fast connection but it is a major consideration for me, especially with the size and complexity of web pages increasing at a ridiculous rate.
so what I am basically saying ..... how do they expect you average mong to download a browser if they dont supply an internet browser for them to do so ?
I suspect IE will be an optional update via Windows Update.
Believe it or not, there are still a lot of areas in the UK where broadband speed is less than 1Mbps. I can sometimes only connect at about 0.3Mbps so loading a page on Chrome can take 8 seconds, IE could take 15 seconds. Imagine trying to browse an online catalogue at that speed!! The speed is maybe not that relevant if you have a fast connection but it is a major consideration for me, especially with the size and complexity of web pages increasing at a ridiculous rate.15 seconds? Oh no, the horror :wack: ;)
Living in a rural-ish area - as I do - I am quite accustomed to finding customers with very poor connections. I have one customer, for example, who stuggles to maintain a connection at 400kb/s. They are a multi-million turnover business who have been let down by 2 satellite companies now :( . Their connection drops at least 30-40 times per day :eek:
I suspect IE will be an optional update via Windows Update.And we all know how good the average user is at getting just the "critical" updates, let alone the "optional/recommended" :wack: :D
sideways14a
13-06-2009, 14:14
For the vast majority of plebs out there it doesnt matter if IE is a bit slower, after all there is a fair chance there pc's are going to be saddled with loads of crap in startup, virus's, spyware and other shit apps that bring the box to its knees.
But for some its vital, i didnt spend hours getting the last 150mhz overclock out of the cpu and organising all the services that startup so they operate faster just to be let down by a crappy browser.
Its a bit like getting the very best out of your map on the car, you want it snappy and responsive not sluggish and pathetic.
If you give a customer a computer and say "by the way, to do anything with the internet, you've got to install this first" their reaction is going to be "but, I've been able to surf the internet immediately for the last 11 years, so why the change?".
Why on earth would you do that? :rolleyes:
As I've said a few times but no one seems to be listening, the only people this will affect are those in this thread arguing about whether Firefox is better than IE.
The general public could not give a shit what they use as long as it works. The general public will buy their next computer from either
a) A reputable computer reseller WHO WILL INSTALL IE BEFORE THEY GET IT!
or
b) Their local nerd who builds them computers, who will ... wait for it .... INSTALL IE BEFORE THEY GET IT.
This will only affect you or I who decide to buy Windows 7 on a disc and install it ourselves. I'm sure we all have another machine with internet access (if not a network of them :rolleyes: ) where we can download it.
This is really a non-issue.
Dave
Why on earth would you do that? :rolleyes:
As I've said a few times but no one seems to be listening, the only people this will affect are those in this thread arguing about whether Firefox is better than IE.
The general public could not give a shit what they use as long as it works. The general public will buy their next computer from either
a) A reputable computer reseller WHO WILL INSTALL IE BEFORE THEY GET IT!
or
b) Their local nerd who builds them computers, who will ... wait for it .... INSTALL IE BEFORE THEY GET IT.
This will only affect you or I who decide to buy Windows 7 on a disc and install it ourselves. I'm sure we all have another machine with internet access (if not a network of them :rolleyes: ) where we can download it.
This is really a non-issue.
DaveI wouldn't, no, but some fly-by-night mail-order companies might :D
wouldnt it be good if when windows installed it asked if you wanted to install Everything? there must be megs of stuff no one ever uses...
Cluck - I suggest you read this: http://www.useit.com/papers/responsetime.html ;)
As said, this whole MS thing really isn't an issue, there will just be a pre install or an icon to download.
It's not just an EU thing anyway is it, all you EU ranters - I was under the impression it was a worldwide ruling?
It's bollocks anyways, do you see Sony being penalised for making kit that only works with their kit? (Helloooooo, early memory stick :wave: )? Do you see ford being penalised because they don't create cars from generic parts?
voodoo_melon
14-06-2009, 09:29
It's bollocks anyways, do you see Sony being penalised for making kit that only works with their kit? (Helloooooo, early memory stick :wave: )? Do you see ford being penalised because they don't create cars from generic parts?
Same as Apple don't get fined for including a browser or media player :indiff: Imo it's just because it's MS and it's cool to not like them :rolleyes:
Same as Apple don't get fined for including a browser or media player :indiff: Imo it's just because it's MS and it's cool to not like them :rolleyes:
Nail/head.
the hall
14-06-2009, 10:02
im running windows 7 RC and media player and IE are both there so i wouldn't panic, also everyone knows FF is better :thumbs:
voodoo_melon
14-06-2009, 10:26
Same here, it's far better than Vista and XP. I'll persuade my boss to buy me a copy when it's released :nod:
Cluck - I suggest you read this: http://www.useit.com/papers/responsetime.html ;)
As said, this whole MS thing really isn't an issue, there will just be a pre install or an icon to download.
It's not just an EU thing anyway is it, all you EU ranters - I was under the impression it was a worldwide ruling?
It's bollocks anyways, do you see Sony being penalised for making kit that only works with their kit? (Helloooooo, early memory stick :wave: )? Do you see ford being penalised because they don't create cars from generic parts?So what's the point in doing it in the first place. All it does is aggravate users that they've got to install something that's been there already for the last 10 years. Yes, some manufacturers will pre-install it themselves, but what if Microsoft say "no, you can't do that either, the end-user has to install it" :rolleyes: . It's a completely pointless exercise.
Regarding response time, a web-page is going to load piece-by-piece during the 10 seconds it takes to load fully. So, the user is actually seeing something happening. Yes, if it took 10 seconds before anything appeared, then, fair enough :nod:
As for Sony, Apple et al, I made this point in the first post (I believe). Microsoft are the biggest name and somebody, somewhere, thought "hey, let's suit them for millions of euros, that will help balance our books" :rolleyes:
Same as Apple don't get fined for including a browser or media player :indiff: Imo it's just because it's MS and it's cool to not like them :rolleyes:Indeed and it's just pathetic IMHO. Microsoft are far from perfect but I defy anybody to believe they would have the IT job they have now if it wasn't for them :thumbs:
im running windows 7 RC and media player and IE are both there so i wouldn't panic, also everyone knows FF is better :thumbs:That's because it's the release candidate. Microsoft have announced that they will remove it from the official release in Europe. And let's not go down the "Firefox is better than IE" road because it's :sleep: IMHO.
Martin T
14-06-2009, 20:22
Indeed and it's just pathetic IMHO. Microsoft are far from perfect but I defy anybody to believe they would have the IT job they have now if it wasn't for them :thumbs:
that's because microsoft taught every other software company that it's perfectly acceptable to make p1ss poor software that requires labour intensive maintenance. :thumbs:
Same as Apple don't get fined for including a browser or media player :indiff:There's a huge difference. Microsoft are, and have been for ages, by far the dominant OS provider. (currently a ~90% share of the desktop OS market).
By leveraging their huge OS base, they can also give themselves a huge headstart in other areas --such as browsers-- to the massive detriment of their competitors in those areas. That's the essence of the whole anti-competitive thing. They don't have a 66% share of the browser market because IE is better, but because they happened to leverage another advantage they already had. (And the fact that they've got that huge share despite the mediocrity of that product, with its well-documented gaping flaws, makes it even worse.)
If/when Apple has a ~90% share of the desktop OS market, I'm pretty sure similar restrictions would start to fall on them, too.
Have a read: http://markhobley.yi.org:9070/anticompetitive
Indeed and it's just pathetic IMHO. Microsoft are far from perfect but I defy anybody to believe they would have the IT job they have now if it wasn't for them :thumbs:Because most IT jobs are simply fixing MS's poorly-written software? :wack:
Are you seriously trying to say that we wouldn't have PCs and applications, were it not for Microsoft? Of course we would - they'd just be different ones. Back in the day, there was Apple, Atari, Amiga, CP/M, IBM... lots of valid alternatives before Microsoft became so dominant.
In what ways is FF superior to IE?
In the same way as the Emperor's new clothes were superior to his old ones :rolleyes:
voodoo_melon
14-06-2009, 23:39
There's a huge difference. Microsoft are, and have been for ages, by far the dominant OS provider. (currently a ~90% share of the desktop OS market).
By leveraging their huge OS base, they can also give themselves a huge headstart in other areas --such as browsers-- to the massive detriment of their competitors in those areas. That's the essence of the whole anti-competitive thing. They don't have a 66% share of the browser market because IE is better, but because they happened to leverage another advantage they already had. (And the fact that they've got that huge share despite the mediocrity of that product, with its well-documented gaping flaws, makes it even worse.)
If/when Apple has a ~90% share of the desktop OS market, I'm pretty sure similar restrictions would start to fall on them, too.
Have a read: http://markhobley.yi.org:9070/anticompetitive
Where do you draw the line though? There are plenty of (free) alternatives to Notepad, Calculator, Wordpad, Solitaire, Paint etc but they've not been forced to take them out :confused:
If someone is happy with the software that's installed, if not they'll download a more suitable alternative. Forcing someone to click a different icon to download/install IE the first time they run it isn't going to change that :no: The regular users will still use IE and the people who like FF/Opera/whatever else will download and install that instead.
sideways14a
14-06-2009, 23:46
Because most IT jobs are simply fixing MS's poorly-written software? :wack:
To be fair most of the problems we see these days are poorly written apps from other companies, and poorly written drivers (are you listening Nvidia :D)
I have no doubt that the computing world would be a very different (and in my view less approachable) if MS had never been. Ok they have been .. lets say less than agreeable in some of there methods over the year... er to put it mildly but this latest thing is just bollocks.
Wonder what the world would have been like if Atari, Commodore, Amstrad :hurl:, OS2 and such like still had a market share between then instead of just Apple, *nix (and its types) and windows now...
Hell Novel may have grown up to not be shit :D
Microsoft SUCK!
Hmm, they really don't. They're far from perfect but I'm quite happy supporting MOSS 2007, Server 2008 and IIS7. All are decent products in my opinion.
Dave
how can it be against anti-competition laws when all the other browsers are free?! rofl stupid EU
Microsoft SUCK!
Congratulations on creating an internet fanboy post. The art of a good argument is justification. You did that well :nod:
I don't think a lot of people quite get how much Microsoft have done in the evolution of the modern day computer. Slate them all you want, but many aspects of their products have pioneered the way for a vast number of technologies we use on a daily basis and take for granted.
how can it be against anti-competition laws when all the other browsers are free?! rofl stupid EU
I guess it's because most people are lazy (or just don't realise) and won't bother investigating the alternatives. That's not really Microsoft's problem but I can sort of see their point.
Dave
In what ways is FF superior to IE?
addons, yes i know IE7 has some but the ones for FF are better IMO and there is 100000000's of them, enabling me ot tweak FF to work how i want it to and not how someone in an office in america wants me to run it
Its more the fact that FF is a lot more secure than IE, you dont get constant "sploitz" for FF that try install bullshit spyware etc into your PC :)
Plus the decent tabs, search, better performance and addons are a nice bonus :D
sideways14a
15-06-2009, 11:25
addons, yes i know IE7 has some but the ones for FF are better IMO and there is 100000000's of them, enabling me ot tweak FF to work how i want it to and not how someone in an office in america wants me to run it
Its the add ons that really are the key to FF. There are billions of them and you can find a free plug in to do just about anything you want.
Ok the other browsers do this as well but no where near the same scale as FF.
Firefox is a bit like the iPhone, both successful because of external support
It was a smart move for MS to remove IE and not offer any browsers on the OS. It will be very easy for MS to give out free copies of IE on CD at PC World, Currys, GAME, KFC or wherever they chose but not so easy for FF or Opera.
Safari won't get a look in because its sh*te full stop.;)
Another thing in IE's disfavour, which I'm surprised hasn't been discussed yet, is its lack of adherence to standards. This simple issue makes the job of writing things for the internet lots and lots harder. By contrast, lots of browsers (Safari, mobile Safari, Chrome, the s60 browser on Nokia, and lots of smaller ones) now use the 'Webkit' engine, meaning they are bang up to date, and all render and interact with pages as they're meant to. Which is good :)
Safari won't get a look in because its sh*te full stop.;)I'm interested: what makes you say that? Because the "IT world" rates Safari 4 very highly.
Personally, I'm a Chrome man, and will only use Safari under sufferance on my Mac until Chrome is available for OS X.
(There are so many little things about Chrome that rock, apart from how quickly it loads and then renders. The best has to be the 'all-in-one' address bar - it searches, takes addresses, and most importantly offers surprisingly intelligent suggestions as you type, based on your history of searches and text matches via Google. Once you've got used to using it, anything else seems incredibly clunky and frustrating.
Ah a discussion with TommMMmmMmMMMMmmMM Enjoy :wave:
I like IE, it works, and I cant be bothered to download any other free browser, how free software manufactures make any money is beyond me like Fire Fox :confused:
Likewise I use OSX, Linux and Vista .... and I use Safari, FF and IE repectively.
They are all the sodding same IMO ... you type in the address bar and it shows you stuff ... the only down side to any of them is in IE I always struggle to find the "search" and "find on this page" :wack: .... dunno why, I just always struggle with these.
apart from that I use what ever comes on that load and they are all pretty much of a muchness for your your general user
sideways14a
15-06-2009, 15:50
Odd how a few years ago all we had were IE and Netscape.
Now with Navigator dead, burred and pushing up the daisy's we have a whole host of browsers that are all good enough to use and its down to personal preference what one suits the user.
Use what you feel works best for you, but make sure its a modern up to date version as there are security risks with the older stuff.
Congratulations on creating an internet fanboy post. The art of a good argument is justification. You did that well :nod:
I don't think a lot of people quite get how much Microsoft have done in the evolution of the modern day computer. Slate them all you want, but many aspects of their products have pioneered the way for a vast number of technologies we use on a daily basis and take for granted.
of course we know what microsoft have achieved. I used to work at microsoft uk in thames valley park. as usual you are being far to serious about my posts!
Martin T
15-06-2009, 16:08
Have a read: http://markhobley.yi.org:9070/anticompetitive
I tried to follow that link. They use port 9070, a completely non standard port for web pages that causes no end of problems with proxy servers set up securely.
On that basis I will say that person soulld not be commenting on the web browser market since he cannot even set up his own web page properly.
Just cuz your firewall is so locked down you cant get on that port dosnt mean theres anything wrong with the actual site ;)
safari is alright but pointless compared to FF really, same with opera
alanjuggler
15-06-2009, 16:11
i've never noticed that by packaging IE with windows that my preference for other (free) browsers has been changed.
this sounds like they've just continued the ~2003ish judgements against microsoft when the alternatives were pay for and having a packaged free browser made a difference to demand for these.. the market is different now and it just seems that the judgement isn't adapting to the current realities of the market for browsers.
Martin T
15-06-2009, 16:57
Just cuz your firewall is so locked down you cant get on that port dosnt mean theres anything wrong with the actual site ;)
It cerainly does! Not only is it a common, standards compliant setup, it is also required for a reasonably secure network.
Or do you think that is it perfectly for a company to just allow all outgoing traffic to the internet initiated from within the network? So I'll raise you a smug wink ;) ;)
In fact, have you ever heard of the phrase "endpoint security" at all?
of course we know what microsoft have achieved. I used to work at microsoft uk in thames valley park. as usual you are being far to serious about my posts!
One could argue that as usual you are being totally non constructive and irrelevant ;) :p
sideways14a
15-06-2009, 17:22
Just cuz your firewall is so locked down you cant get on that port dosnt mean theres anything wrong with the actual site ;)
Uh hu... that must be why nearly all the computers i look after tend to not have many problems with malware
Tut Tut, i should be more slack lol.;)
voodoo_melon
15-06-2009, 17:30
Another thing in IE's disfavour, which I'm surprised hasn't been discussed yet, is its lack of adherence to standards. This simple issue makes the job of writing things for the internet lots and lots harder. By contrast, lots of browsers (Safari, mobile Safari, Chrome, the s60 browser on Nokia, and lots of smaller ones) now use the 'Webkit' engine, meaning they are bang up to date, and all render and interact with pages as they're meant to. Which is good :)
IE8 is supposed to fix that. It's adheres to standard so they've had to put in a compatability button so that pages that are 'broken' (they were written for IE6/7) display properly.
IE8 bloody doesn't :smash:
Only reason I've ever had with IE is the lack of adherence to W3C standards, and although the latest version is a LOT better, it's still not perfect :no: It makes the life of a web developer even more of a crapper :(
voodoo_melon
15-06-2009, 17:59
That's what I'd read, it's why they needed to put the IE7 compatability button in it :confused:
sideways14a
15-06-2009, 18:01
The compatibility button is there for stuff that doesnt work right indeed, however that same shit didnt work correctly in 7 either lol.
Sloppy web developers.... any monkey can put together a web page these days but not everyone can do it right.
Martin T
15-06-2009, 18:23
Uh hu... that must be why nearly all the computers i look after tend to not have many problems with malware
Tut Tut, i should be more slack lol.;)
And preventing malware infection is only one of the reasons this is done. Stopping malware that has slipped through the net from phoning home is another reason.
At my workplace, we are working hard at locking down the network and it is not helped by p1ss poor web developers that just assume because it works on their machine that it's OK to ignore standards then moan about internet explorer's standards compliance!
What makes things even more difficult is dealing with muppet software developers that haven't a clue about any sort of best practice coding and therefore requiring full local admin access to print a report :annoyed:
Dealing with coders is like writing your own code. You can't just tell them to do a job. You have to tell them how to do it as well :rolleyes:
One could argue that as usual you are being totally non constructive and irrelevant ;) :p
im just really hating hotmail and msn messenger at the minute. thats all:(
i am speaking to you know care of microsoft so i appreciate some of their virtual goods:)
sideways14a
15-06-2009, 18:43
And preventing malware infection is only one of the reasons this is done. Stopping malware that has slipped through the net from phoning home is another reason.
At my workplace, we are working hard at locking down the network and it is not helped by p1ss poor web developers that just assume because it works on their machine that it's OK to ignore standards then moan about internet explorer's standards compliance!
What makes things even more difficult is dealing with muppet software developers that haven't a clue about any sort of best practice coding and therefore requiring full local admin access to print a report :annoyed:
Dealing with coders is like writing your own code. You can't just tell them to do a job. You have to tell them how to do it as well :rolleyes:
Your not going to get any argument from me on that.lol
Everyone points the finger at MS (who have admittedly deserved it in the past) but these days its poor drivers and apps that cause most headaches.
Also web apps, how ****ing poor are the companies that write half of these things, wow the coders must really suck...
It seems microsoft will now be allowed to take the sensible approach
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8168235.stm
Great, so now you have the choice of :-
Internet Explorer - not the quickest, but the one that most people use and are most comfortable with. Gets hacked quite a bit, but in general it just works
Firefox - faster but more bug ridden than the sheets of a corpse and gets patched more than a 100-a-day cigarette smoker trying to give up
Safari - you're just taking the piss now aren't you. Does any PC user actually use this?
Chrome - another product from the megalith that is Google. If you think Microsoft have been trying to take over your lives, then you obviously haven't heard of Google. Google Toolbar. Google Desktop. Google Earth. Google Moon. Google Chrome. Google Toilet. Google Goggles. Google Beer. Google Wife. Google Divorce. Google Tramp. Google Car. Google Phone. Google Shoes. Google Watch. Google Poo. Google Weed. Google Life. All completely and utterly shit and guaranteed to crash your computer faster than a crashy thing crashing on a crashy day in Crashville. Arizona.
Honestly, what's the fcuking point :rolleyes:
Choose Google. Choose a Google job. Choose a Google career. Choose a Google family. Choose a ****ing big Google television, choose Google washing machines, Google cars, Google compact disc players and Google electrical tin openers. Choose good Google health, low Google-esterol, and Google dental insurance. Choose fixed interest Google mortgage repayments. Choose a Google starter home. Choose your Google friends. Choose Google leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose a three-piece Google suite on hire Google-purchase in a range of ****ing Google-fabrics. Choose Google-DIY and wondering who the **** you are on Google-Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that Google couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing Google shows, stuffing ****ing Google food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pissing your last in a miserable Google-home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, ****ed up Google brats you spawned to replace yourselves. Choose your Google future. Choose Google life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose Google life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got Microsoft?
sideways14a
24-07-2009, 21:48
Firefox isnt that bad, and getting patched regularly is a definite plus not a bad thing... Are you listening Apple :wack:
It does have rough bits, but so do they all.
IE isnt all that bad now either but i wouldnt be using it all the time.
Opera is a good alternative, stable and quick.
Chrome - another product from the megalith that is Google. If you think Microsoft have been trying to take over your lives, then you obviously haven't heard of Google. Google Toolbar. Google Desktop. Google Earth. Google Moon. Google Chrome. Google Toilet. Google Goggles. Google Beer. Google Wife. Google Divorce. Google Tramp. Google Car. Google Phone. Google Shoes. Google Watch. Google Poo. Google Weed. Google Life. All completely and utterly shit and guaranteed to crash your computer faster than a crashy thing crashing on a crashy day in Crashville. Arizona.
Honestly, what's the fcuking point :rolleyes:
You forgot google widgets
Microsoft has made a new proposal to European competition regulators that it hopes will end their row over the firm's Internet Explorer web browser.
It proposes that European buyers of its new Windows 7 operating system will be offered a list of potential browsers when they first install the software.
i bet the list will be
Netsape Navigator 0.9 beta (remember that?)
Firefox 1.5 Beta
Safari 0.5 Beta
Opera 0.01 Beta V3
the latest version of IE what ever we are upto
with the options where they automatically check and update disabled, to make them look shite, slow and full of bugs, but make the microsoft version look spanky and good, where 99.9% of the computer useres wont bother/know how to download the latest versions of the other browsers
Firefox isnt that bad, and getting patched regularly is a definite plus not a bad thing...Fair enough, it's getting patched, but it's hardly the "secure alternative" to Internet Explorer that the world was promised is it? ;) . It's time that the software writers owned up and said "we can't code for toffee. Whatever we release is going to get exposed to lots and lots of security problems. But, if you use our product, you'll be among only 100 other people who use it, so nobody will bother attacking it. That is until it becomes popular and then lots of people will use it and then the hackers will start to expose our sloppy coding. Feel free to fcuk off and use a different product at that point if you like but it'll only be a short while before that other product is exposed as well. Just like Apple and their 'secure and virus-proof' OS" :wack: :D
You forgot google widgetsSorry about that. I've added it in, just for you :D
sideways14a
24-07-2009, 22:04
TO be honest 99% of numpty... sorry computer users are going to use the first browser they come to on the desktop.
The vast majority of people treat a pc as a video recorder or a telly or a microwave, an unfortunate side effect of the last 20 odd years of pushing the PC into every ones homes.
By there very nature they are not really consumer items.
We have a good choice of internet browsers nowadays so no one needs to use something they dont like.
Likewise we have a reasonable choice of OS. Windows for full compatibility with everything, OSX for cuddly easiness but limited and Linux variants that cater for the hardcore who want to shag penguins.
The list...
http://img.hexus.net/v2/news/microsoft/browser-ballot-big.jpg
Least you're not stuck completely without a browser.
And preventing malware infection is only one of the reasons this is done. Stopping malware that has slipped through the net from phoning home is another reason.
At my workplace, we are working hard at locking down the network and it is not helped by p1ss poor web developers that just assume because it works on their machine that it's OK to ignore standards then moan about internet explorer's standards compliance!
What makes things even more difficult is dealing with muppet software developers that haven't a clue about any sort of best practice coding and therefore requiring full local admin access to print a report :annoyed:
Dealing with coders is like writing your own code. You can't just tell them to do a job. You have to tell them how to do it as well :rolleyes:
AMEN to that one... the prob. with .net is it lets any bloody idiot easily knock up code that works fine on their machine, where they have full administrative privilidges...
/me runs off to punch some brick walls
The list...
http://img.hexus.net/v2/news/microsoft/browser-ballot-big.jpg
Least you're not stuck completely without a browser.Hold on, that's displaying a list of browsers IN A BROWSER WINDOW. You must have downloaded a browser to display the choice of browsers available. But how can you do that without a browser? ;) :p :D
From what I read, that's what you get when you start IE for the first time.
I have no idea if you can browse away from it, or change your 'homepage' after that, though.
From what I read, that's what you get when you start IE for the first time.
I have no idea if you can browse away from it, or change your 'homepage' after that, though.But they are removing IE from Windows ;)
It's a complete waste of time and the european courts have said as much too.
What will most likely happen - as has been suggested earlier in the thread - is that there will be an installation icon on the desktop for the various OS choices. I would hope that there will also be an option to delete the ones that the user does not want.
It will change nothing. 90% of users will choose Internet Explorer because that is the product they know and are most comfortable with. Which leaves nobody any better off than they are already. Which all comes around to the original title of the thread :wack:
But they are removing IE from Windows ;)
It will change nothing. 90% of users will choose Internet Explorer because that is the product they know and are most comfortable with. Which leaves nobody any better off than they are already. Which all comes around to the original title of the thread :wack:
So what happens to the underlying HTML framework for the OS? MS has a whole API for displaying menus, program options etc for third party apps which use the IE engine. If you break IE, a load of 3rd party apps suddenly stop working too. I'm sure the EU high court took that into account when making their decision :wack:
So what happens to the underlying HTML framework for the OS? MS has a whole API for displaying menus, program options etc for third party apps which use the IE engine. If you break IE, a load of 3rd party apps suddenly stop working too. I'm sure the EU high court took that into account when making their decision :wack:But the EU high court didn't take the decision. Microsoft took it upon themselves to declare "No IE in Windows 7 in Europe (but it's OK for the rest of the world)". The EU courts have already said it will make no difference to their rulings. That's why it's so bloody daft. Try taking a browser out of any OS and see how much the users complain. The web is as much a part of everyday computing as is switching the computer on and off. The whole thing is a nonsense. Hence the title :D
But the EU high court didn't take the decision. Microsoft took it upon themselves to declare "No IE in Windows 7 in Europe (but it's OK for the rest of the world)". The EU courts have already said it will make no difference to their rulings. That's why it's so bloody daft. Try taking a browser out of any OS and see how much the users complain. The web is as much a part of everyday computing as is switching the computer on and off. The whole thing is a nonsense. Hence the title :D
I'll read the entire thread one of these days. MS are just doing it to spite them then ;)
They never removed IE from Windows. Even in the leaked -E editions with no IE the only thing missing was IEXPLORE.EXE the rendering engine and everything else that makes up IE was still there.
You could just copy IEXPLORE.EXE from a Vista PC and it would work fine.
The new ballot screen, if you choose something other than IE from there it'll probably just remove the icons from the start menu using the exact same browser selection mechanism that they introduced with XP SP2.
So ultimately the -E edition is just the same as the standard edition but with yet another screen to pop up and annoy you the first time after you reinstall.
That said, I'm liking Win7 RC enough that I decided to buy the final version, which seems to make me a minority amongst most techs.
Microsoft have eased up a lot since this was an issue. Way back 10 years ago this was relevant, and had Microsoft not been pressured by the EU and had they continued with the tactics they were using at the time, then I imagine half the web sites today would only work correctly on a Windows + IE platform.
If Microsoft had continued in their methods of making open standards proprietary, do you think 10% of the desktops today would still be non-MS?
Look what happened with graphics. Before Direct3D existed, there was OpenGL. It worked on dozens of platforms,and Microsoft were a partner in making the standard. Software could be written to use OpenGL and be cross platform with relative ease, but then Microsoft decided to concentrate on a new standard of their very own called Direct3D.
Direct3D was part of DirectX. DirectX did more than just graphics, and was a brilliant concept but the graphics could have been left to OpenGL as the standard was already there. By pushing Direct3D graphics, which were only available on Microsoft operating systems with DirectX, they made the porting of games to other systems a hurdle not many developers could afford for small software titles.
Nowadays, if you want to play games on a computer you need to have Windows installed, apart from a few major titles where the market would pay for a conversion.
I'm sure some of the geeks on here could mention similar tactics Microsoft have used in the past which has given them some of their current market share. These are the reasons the EU made a fuss about IE, but the EU was far too slow to be of any use when it actually mattered, but thats another thing entirely.
using the exact same browser selection mechanism that they introduced with XP SP2Huh? Is that just a retail thing then? I've not had anything like that on any of the OEM copies I've purchased and installed :confused:
And, yes, they are 100% legitimate UK sourced versions from one of the official OEM distis (Ingram Micro)
Microsoft have eased up a lot since this was an issue. Way back 10 years ago this was relevant, and had Microsoft not been pressured by the EU and had they continued with the tactics they were using at the time, then I imagine half the web sites today would only work correctly on a Windows + IE platform.Doubt it. Somebody would still have come along and done something - just like Firefox - and slowly gained "market share". Microsoft were late to the party, realised that people wanted a browser in their OS and supplied one. Not the best one, but it generally worked and most users were happy with that situation
If Microsoft had continued in their methods of making open standards proprietary, do you think 10% of the desktops today would still be non-MS? Yes. I honestly don't think things would have been any different if the EU and anti-competitive commissions hadn't stepped in all those years ago. Microsoft have been the OS of choice for PCs since DOS 6.22. People know the name and, rightly or wrongly, trust that name.
Look what happened with graphics. Before Direct3D existed, there was OpenGL. It worked on dozens of platforms,and Microsoft were a partner in making the standard. Software could be written to use OpenGL and be cross platform with relative ease, but then Microsoft decided to concentrate on a new standard of their very own called Direct3D
Direct3D was part of DirectX. DirectX did more than just graphics, and was a brilliant concept but the graphics could have been left to OpenGL as the standard was already there. By pushing Direct3D graphics, which were only available on Microsoft operating systems with DirectX, they made the porting of games to other systems a hurdle not many developers could afford for small software titles.
Nowadays, if you want to play games on a computer you need to have Windows installed, apart from a few major titles where the market would pay for a conversionErm, isn't it more about installed base than worrying about what graphics platform to write to? Yes, they could have standardised on OpenGL, but how many Apple owners actually want to play games? How many people out there really play games on a Linux based system. I doubt using an open standard, like OpenGL, would have increased sales all that much to be honest. No, we won't ever know 'what might have happened' but DirectX is here and it's here to stay. Have you seen the bitter in-fighting in the OpenGL camp these days? It's almost as pathetic as the IEEE group. Too many people with too many vested interests to get something developed quickly and in the user's best interests :wack:
These are the reasons the EU made them remove IEIn this instance, it is Microsoft's own decision to remove IE. The EU has already said it is a pointless gesture. Do you really want a world where there are a hundred different operating systems that are all "supposed to work with each other" or would you rather have one that works 99% of the time? If you truly stifle development you end up being called Apple. If the PC market was truly stifled, then we wouldn't have all the compatibility problems we have but we also wouldn't have the wide variety of choice available either. People want to bring Microsoft down because they are at the top of the tower and I defy anybody to genuinely argue otherwise.
Huh? Is that just a retail thing then? I've not had anything like that on any of the OEM copies I've purchased and installed :confused:
And, yes, they are 100% legitimate UK sourced versions from one of the official OEM distis (Ingram Micro)
Yes you have. It's labelled "Set program access and defaults", it's also the 4th option in the Add/Remove programs sidebar.
Yes you have. It's labelled "Set program access and defaults", it's also the 4th option in the Add/Remove programs sidebar.But that's something you have to change if you can find it. IE is still there as an installed browser though in XP (SP2 and SP3) and Vista (vanilla, SP1 and SP2). In addition, the option to use another browser is only available if you install another browser. I can't remember the OS installing Firefox or Chrome or suchlike :no:
This whole debacle is a waste of time on Microsoft's part :nod:
But that's something you have to change if you can find it. IE is still there as an installed browser though in XP (SP2 and SP3) and Vista (vanilla, SP1 and SP2). In addition, the option to use another browser is only available if you install another browser. I can't remember the OS installing Firefox or Chrome or suchlike :no:
That was my point. That ballot screen shows that IE is clearly still there, so the "best" that can happen is after you pick Firefox, the OS just hides IE in exactly the same was as what you and I both just described.
Whoop de bloody do.
In this instance, it is Microsoft's own decision to remove IE. The EU has already said it is a pointless gesture. Do you really want a world where there are a hundred different operating systems that are all "supposed to work with each other" or would you rather have one that works 99% of the time?
Ah, yep. edited it now. I'd prefer lots of compatible systems then the 1 vendor can't name their price.
I personally like plugging my Symbian (or whatever it uses) phone into my PC's USB and sending the photo's I took today (in standard JPEG format) over the Internet (via a router running Linux) where they can be viewed by a friend on his Mac. :thumbs: They already do work well together, unless someone along the way makes a special effort to stray from the standards.
I'd prefer lots of compatible systems then the 1 vendor can't name their price.
I personally like plugging my Symbian (or whatever it uses) phone into my PC's USB and sending the photo's I took today (in standard JPEG format) over the Internet (via a router running Linux) where they can be viewed by a friend on his Mac. :thumbs: They already do work well together, unless someone along the way makes a special effort to stray from the standards.Yes, but you're like the 0.1% of computer users who know what they're doing ;) . The other 99.9% really don't have a clue and just want something that's exactly like their office computer. Windows provides that, near as makes a difference, and that is all that Joe Public wants. For all the faults of Windows, it has at least provided a single platform for most people to work from and generally runs every bit of software released since year dot. If I could trust a programmer to write a compatible OS that was close enough to Windows, without infringing copyrights, and that worked 99.9% of the time, I'd applaud the idea. But it's never going to happen. AMD can't even make their chips 100% compatible FFS, so what chance does a software writer have :(
Yes, but you're like the 0.1% of computer users who know what they're doing ;) . The other 99.9% really don't have a clue and just want something that's exactly like their office computer. Windows provides that, near as makes a difference, and that is all that Joe Public wants. For all the faults of Windows, it has at least provided a single platform for most people to work from and generally runs every bit of software released since year dot. If I could trust a programmer to write a compatible OS that was close enough to Windows, without infringing copyrights, and that worked 99.9% of the time, I'd applaud the idea. But it's never going to happen. AMD can't even make their chips 100% compatible FFS, so what chance does a software writer have :(
There still needs to be alternatives around otherwise there will be no motivation for Microsoft to improve things and fix things. They'll become like any other service that's prescribed to us such as the local council. We don't get any choice as to what we receive for our council tax and as a result council services are expensive, wasteful, inefficient, crap and they love to boss us about. Perhaps if I could withhold £20 a month and pay a different company to empty my bins then they wouldn't be trying to force people onto fortnightly collections and would actually pick the damn things up on time.
For a long time this was pretty much how things were with Microsoft, 98, 98SE and ME were little more than a rehash of Windows 95 with a fresh coat of paint. 2000 and XP were just NT4 tarted up a bit, now thanks to them getting taken down a peg or two by the monopolies commission(s), along with Apple snapping at their heels in the OS market, Mozilla in the browser market and Google in the web services market they've been forced to get their act together and deliver something more than just yet another rehash of the old Windows NT kernel. We've finally gotten a decent installer at last one that doesn't require a floppy drive if you want to use a non-standard hard drive controller.
The dirty secret of free market competition is that while competition works fine in improving choice and value for money, it only works fine so long as none of the competitors ever win
Smoothound
23-02-2010, 12:38
Latest news is this is being pushed out any day now. To all installs of XP, Vista and Windows 7.
What a totally stupid idea!
I totally understand the motivations behind this and actually support this. I think it's a good idea to give NEW users a choice on their NEW installation of Windows. But for god's sake leave existing users alone! They're pefectly happy with their browser choice and don't need their lives complicating.
I'm now awaiting the barrage of friends and collegues who either
a) don't know what to do with the browser choice screen and probably think they have a virus
b) muddled their way through it and now have chosen the wrong browser and want to know how to get "the blue E" back
c) panicked, started messing with stuff and have now totally knackered their PC.
Nice one EU, you bunch of f****g r*tards
Havent read the whole thread but I assume you get an update that removes explorer and you then have to download it :confused::wack:
Smoothound
23-02-2010, 12:47
Havent read the whole thread but I assume you get an update that removes explorer and you then have to download it :confused::wack:
Basically yes. Even if you've been happily using IE for the last 8 years, you get sent to this screen
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/580/ss20100223124632.png
This is going to confuse alot of people, especially if they scroll right!
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/3337/ss20100223124717.png
I predict a total f***** mess :rant:
But by un-integrating it, you add an extra hurdle to the millions upon millions of ordinary users who just want to turn their computer on and have the internet working. Put yourself in the shoes of an ordinary Joe and see how annoying it would be to have to download a web browser rather than just "have it there".
Are the EU going to insist that Apple remove their web browser as well?
If there was a commercial gain to be had for another company, then fair enough. But nobody pays for web browsers any more, so it's a complete waste of effort and money, IMHO :nod:
Bingo :thumbs:
hey should make it like paintbrush, or character map, when you install windows, it asks if you want to install IE. rather than just dumping it on you
What a load of shit :indiff:
As Cluck said a large portion of users just want something that works when you want to go on the internet, everyone that doesnt want to use IE has all ready downloaded one of the other ones anyway :wack:
i installed a store bought (Tescos Home Southampton.)version of windows 7 professional just after Xmas (bought then as well) and IE8 was installed by default, no screens asking me which one i wanted it was just there like in all the versions of windows i have installed previously.
Latest news is this is being pushed out any day now. To all installs of XP, Vista and Windows 7.
What a totally stupid idea!
I totally understand the motivations behind this and actually support this. I think it's a good idea to give NEW users a choice on their NEW installation of Windows. But for god's sake leave existing users alone! They're pefectly happy with their browser choice and don't need their lives complicating.
I'm now awaiting the barrage of friends and collegues who either
a) don't know what to do with the browser choice screen and probably think they have a virus
b) muddled their way through it and now have chosen the wrong browser and want to know how to get "the blue E" back
c) panicked, started messing with stuff and have now totally knackered their PC.
Nice one EU, you bunch of f****g r*tards
where did you find this out, any links etc?
the biggest headache if they remove IE from all installed versions will be company IT people, is this part of an autoupdate or what?
(this sounds agressive to you Smoothhound, its not i'm just annoyed with it and other stuff grrrr
i installed a store bought (Tescos Home Southampton.)version of windows 7 professional just after Xmas (bought then as well) and IE8 was installed by default, no screens asking me which one i wanted it was just there like in all the versions of windows i have installed previously.
It's not out yet :wack:
It's not out yet :wack:
this?
http://direct.tesco.com/q/R.206-4754.aspx
i payed £135 in a promotion around Xmas
mandelbug
23-02-2010, 14:21
Just emailed the entire company to give them a heads up so that after the 1st March we aren't getting bombarded with "shit my PC has a load of spyware and I can't get onto the internet" questions.
is there a link to an article/press release etc?
i've been googling for something bot to no avail as of yet
Smoothound
23-02-2010, 14:23
where did you find this out, any links etc?
the biggest headache if they remove IE from all installed versions will be company IT people, is this part of an autoupdate or what?
(this sounds agressive to you Smoothhound, its not i'm just annoyed with it and other stuff grrrr
I'm afraid it's all 100% true and confirmed (http://windows.microsoft.com/en-GB/windows/what-is-the-browser-choice-update). It will be pushed out by Windows Update from March 1st. On bootup, it will basically redirect users to this page
http://www.browserchoice.eu/
Depending what link they click on, they will either continue to use IE (or upgrade to IE8 if still on 6/7), or it will be uninstalled and replaced by one of the other browsers.
I really hope nobody scrolls right as that's gonna be a real biatch uninstalling that crap for all my non-techie mates! :smash:
I was totally behind the browser choice for new installs, but I had no idea this was on the cards.
EDIT: Loads of articles about it via teh Google (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rlz=1C1GPCK_enGB366GB367&q=browser+choice&btnG=Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=)
I'm hoping to find out the KB number so I can block it at work!
As Mark says, most people who care have already made their choice.:nod:
Those who don't are better off not knowing and just carrying on regardless!:rolleyes:
mandelbug
23-02-2010, 14:24
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02/19/microsoft_browser_screen/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8524019.stm
I am using those for now
I might go for a bit of Maxthon for a change! To be honest I don't think this is such a bad thing as you either just confirm what you are currently using or select a new one that may suit your needs better. It's all well and good saying most current users have already chosen but I would describe myself as fairly tech savvy but had never heard of Maxthon before and yet it looks quite good. :nod:
voodoo_melon
23-02-2010, 14:32
It shouldn't affect companies that use wsus, just don't distrubute the update :)
Is it really that bad ????
At the end of the day, you buy a PC, and it asks you what browser you want ..... and you click the one the want ? ... right ?
So if you dont know any different, you will end up with a browser that browses the internet, and you will be happy as you dont know the difference.
If you DO know the difference, surely you will pick the one you know ?
I dont get why this is such a bad thing .... its only a browser, I have lots of them and they all do the same thing for the basic user ?
after posting for a link i found loads lol
Is it really that bad ????
At the end of the day, you buy a PC, and it asks you what browser you want ..... and you click the one the want ? ... right ?
So if you dont know any different, you will end up with a browser that browses the internet, and you will be happy as you dont know the difference.
If you DO know the difference, surely you will pick the one you know ?
I dont get why this is such a bad thing .... its only a browser, I have lots of them and they all do the same thing for the basic user ?
the issues is ALL version of windows includin already installed and running (99.9% of all PC's in the land inc companies) wil lbe given this choice on march 1st, and you know what users are like
"oh oh something ot click, i'll change it to spyware+adaware loads browser.
2 days later
they call ICT as its fcuked their machine - i dont care about people at home just in the office
mandelbug
23-02-2010, 14:39
It shouldn't affect companies that use wsus, just don't distrubute the update :)
Aye, we have two offices and our office is handled by WSUS so will keep an eye out for it and decline it. But it doesn't stop you manually running windows update on an XP machine which will bypass the WSUS and install this.
Smoothound
23-02-2010, 14:41
OK this is not bad for people who know what they're doing.
But the sad fact (and I know this as I work for a web agency). Is that the overwhelmingly vast majority of users don't actually know what a web browser is. It's one of those things you guys probably take for granted but trust me on this, the average user has no idea. Many don't know the difference between a browser and Google, they think it's the same thing. (which means Google may clean up here!)
So the problem is that some people are going to be presented with a choice they don't understand. Unless they actually read into it (and boost their IT knowledge tenfold) they will probably just click on the logo they recognise - which is going to be either the Google logo, or the blue E.
If they click on the Blue E. They win! They get to carry on using their computer exactly the same as they always have. all their passwords are still saved, as are persistent/cached cookies, saved forms, browser history, bookmarks, toolbars, plugins, etc.etc.
If they click on something else. People like me get phone up to explain where "the blue E" has gone, and why the bookmarks have vanished and why "the internet" doesn't look the same anymore etc. etc. etc.
Put simply : People did not need this choice.
TBH I'm more annoyed by the latest update rolling out Office Live :censored: :rant: :rant: :rant:
Smoothound
23-02-2010, 14:44
It shouldn't affect companies that use wsus, just don't distrubute the update :)
It will if it's pushed through as "Critical" :(
EDIT : Unless you're crazy enough not to have Critical updates set to Approve for your workstations.
mandelbug
23-02-2010, 14:45
Just check your WSUS server on monday for the KB article and decline it, hopefully you will catch it
Edit - Or temporarily set critical to be manually approved
But the sad fact (and I know this as I work for a web agency). Is that the overwhelmingly vast majority of users don't actually know what a web browser is. It's one of those things you guys probably take for granted but trust me on this, the average user has no idea. Many don't know the difference between a browser and Google, they think it's the same thing. (which means Google may clean up here!)
So the problem is that some people are going to be presented with a choice they don't understand. Unless they actually read into it (and boost their IT knowledge tenfold) they will probably just click on the logo they recognise - which is going to be either the Google logo, or the blue E. Precisely. The average user calls their PC their hard disk and calls their anti-virus software Anti-Norton Virus (OK, they might have had a point with this one :D). The average computer user does not know how to cope with a change of browser, so giving them the easy opportunity to change it is going to result in a lot of anger directed Microsoft's way (and the way of those poor sods who support their customers) :nod:
Smoothound
23-02-2010, 14:47
Precisely. The average user calls their PC their hard disk and calls their anti-virus software Anti-Norton Virus (OK, they might have had a point with this one :D). The average computer user does not know how to cope with a change of browser, so giving them the easy opportunity to change it is going to result in a lot of anger directed Microsoft's way (and the way of those poor sods who support their customers) :nod:
Exactamundo :clap:
I'm changing my mobile number from 1st March :nod:
mandelbug
23-02-2010, 14:48
My last day in this job is the 2nd, hope I don't get bugged by this too much
voodoo_melon
23-02-2010, 14:49
Aye, we have two offices and our office is handled by WSUS so will keep an eye out for it and decline it. But it doesn't stop you manually running windows update on an XP machine which will bypass the WSUS and install this.
Nope, but group policy does :nod:
Smoothound
23-02-2010, 14:50
My last day in this job is the 2nd, hope I don't get bugged by this too much
I've seen the 4th quoted on some blogs/feeds.
However, you could be in for one hell of a last day! :smash:
mandelbug
23-02-2010, 14:54
Smoothound - The group IT Manager will be here in Manchester on the last day, will be fairly easy for me in this office. Already sent the if this happens, click this mail, will just repeat it if it happens at all. I think the boss is more likely to have to go back to Nottingham early lol.
Good call with using GPO to block windows update though Voodoo_Melon
Smoothound
23-02-2010, 15:02
Good call with using GPO to block windows update though Voodoo_Melon
Kinda pointless having WSUS otherwise :p
Only just really got to grips with GPO over the last 12 months. Pretty cool what you can do with it. I used it to deploy Dynamics CRM :cool:
EDIT: And to block chromeinstaller.exe :D
voodoo_melon
23-02-2010, 15:27
EDIT: And to block chromeinstaller.exe :D
Block GoogleChromePortable.exe too just to be on the safe side :)
Chrome is for winners. :nod:
Let's not make this ANOTHER geek fight on which browser is best though!! :whip:
mandelbug
23-02-2010, 15:34
What I don't get though, is MS are having to do all this but how come with Apple, you don't get offered anything other than Safari .... or is it because Apple is supposedly a complete system whereas MS Windows is just the OS.
What I don't get though, is MS are having to do all this but how come with Apple, you don't get offered anything other than Safari .... or is it because Apple is supposedly a complete system whereas MS Windows is just the OS.
that is a really good point. maybe apples market share is too small to worry about
also this is only Europe, will other nations follow?
sideways14a
23-02-2010, 15:38
What I don't get though, is MS are having to do all this but how come with Apple, you don't get offered anything other than Safari .... or is it because Apple is supposedly a complete system whereas MS Windows is just the OS.
Its because Steve Jobs is the second coming of Christ. :wack:
mandelbug
23-02-2010, 15:38
No it's purely the EU Competition people that are inflicting it
What I don't get though, is MS are having to do all this but how come with Apple, you don't get offered anything other than Safari .... or is it because Apple is supposedly a complete system whereas MS Windows is just the OS.
I think its more to do with MS having a 90% share of the OS market so has a controlling say on browsers .... compared to an insignificant market share that Apple have.
I am sure if Apple made a play for market share that the EU would butt fcuk them as well :indiff:
voodoo_melon
23-02-2010, 15:41
What I don't get though, is MS are having to do all this but how come with Apple, you don't get offered anything other than Safari .... or is it because Apple is supposedly a complete system whereas MS Windows is just the OS.
This bugs me too - Apple won't let people release software for their OS because it "duplicates functionality" (that google app that was refused by Apple) yet MS get fined for including IE :confused:
-Edit-
I'm referring to the iPhone app here btw.
No it's purely the EU Competition people that are inflicting it
fully aware, but they managed to fime microsft £300m for this, and that was when the ecconomy was in full swing.
now "could" other countries/nations see a quick buck for some addition funding from one fo thw rolds richest businesses?
mandelbug
23-02-2010, 15:46
Depends .... does the £300m go back into Europe as a whole or does it sit in the competition committee's bank account?
sideways14a
23-02-2010, 15:47
You may see Apple getting a bumming for there antics with the iPhone ... at some point, problem is that while they enjoy a fair user base its not the one sided setup that IE/other browsers have.
sideways14a
23-02-2010, 15:49
Depends .... does the £300m go back into Europe as a whole or does it sit in the competition committee's bank account?
I believe that when EU took intel to court for its, lets say shameful :wack:, activities in competition to AMD, AMD never saw a penny.
This isnt to be confisued with AMDs recent 1.2billion dollar payout from intel that was for the US telling off..
Smoothound
23-02-2010, 16:40
Chrome is for winners. :nod: Let's not make this ANOTHER geek fight on which browser is best though!! :whip:
I like Chrome as a browser. But my beef with it as a Network Manager is that their installer has been blatantly coded to circumnavigate the usual security lockdown which stops users from installing software. I don't like this for two reasons
1) It's just damn sneaky and I don't like that one bit. I get to say what software users can have. If they want something else, it needs testing and rolling out properly.
2) Users end up carrying the whole figging install around in their roaming profile, including their cache and downloaded files. Which eventually breaks the sync with the profile directory on the file server.
Well done Google, now no IT/Network Manager will trust you and your dodgy apps :clap:
Anyway back to the debate:D
Chrome is for winners. :nod:
Let's not make this ANOTHER geek fight on which browser is best though!! :whip:
http://operawatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/opera-browser.jpg
:wack: :p
I like Chrome as a browser. But my beef with it as a Network Manager is that their installer has been blatantly coded to circumnavigate the usual security lockdown which stops users from installing software. I don't like this for two reasons
1) It's just damn sneaky and I don't like that one bit. I get to say what software users can have. If they want something else, it needs testing and rolling out properly.
2) Users end up carrying the whole figging install around in their roaming profile, including their cache and downloaded files. Which eventually breaks the sync with the profile directory on the file server.
Well done Google, now no IT/Network Manager will trust you and your dodgy apps :clap:
Anyway back to the debate:D
Ahhh, so that explains why I could install Chrome on the works internet PCs but couldn't install an up to date anti virus programme!! The IT support guy wasn't based locally and he had forgotten the admin passwords so IMO all software developers should use that trick!!! :D
sideways14a
23-02-2010, 20:29
so IMO all software developers should use that trick!!! :D
Yup, its great. Of course it will break everything in the world within....hmm 8 hours...Infact.. no i recon most of my monkeys could break there pc's given rights to install just about anything in.... hmm 10 mins, including piss and coffee break :wack:
Martin T
23-02-2010, 23:38
Kinda pointless having WSUS otherwise :p
Only just really got to grips with GPO over the last 12 months. Pretty cool what you can do with it. I used it to deploy Dynamics CRM :cool:
EDIT: And to block chromeinstaller.exe :D
How are your users even able to get exe's on to your system. We have some proper cr@p software on our system still that we can't get rid of due to pr1ck financial controllers but we've stopped cnuts from getting cr@p on their machines by blocking removable media and any exe's etc through our web proxy.
Once we have blitzed all problem users profiles and reimaged every last machine, I foree helpdesk calls going down.
Give it another year of work and I'll actually be satisfied with our network.
I'm hoping to find out the KB number so I can block it at work!
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/976002
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/894199
Whilst not really a fan of M$ surely that means you should have a choice of browser on your mac, or even iphone, blackberry, windows mobile device, smartphone, ps3, xbox, etc?
No the reason is, Microsoft effectively killed off other browsers back in the day such as Netscape then bundled its own software and forced everyone to use it, it's their cheeky tactics that have all amounted to this. Plus a fine of a few hundred mil will make some lawyers seriously wealthy. I mean most of that money will goto legal proceedings right?
Anyway as for best browser, from a user experience anything that renders using webkit is king, i.e. Safari and Chrome, not IE with their own standards and not Mozilla (Firefox is a resourcehog anyway since V3).
No the reason is, Microsoft effectively killed off other browsers back in the day such as Netscape then bundled its own software and forced everyone to use it, it's their cheeky tactics that have all amounted to this. Plus a fine of a few hundred mil will make some lawyers seriously wealthy. I mean most of that money will goto legal proceedings right?Microsoft didn't 'force' anybody to do anything. All they did was gave users a piece of software that enabled them to surf the web as soon as they turned on their PC. If people wanted to, they could easily have said no and installed a copy of Netscape or anything else. The fact is, IE worked 'well enough' for people not to bother looking elsewhere.
Here's one the EU have missed. Get Microsoft to remove the Calculator application in case it's harmed sales of desktop calculators :rolleyes:
Most users want to switch a computer on and use it with as little fuss as possible. Apple can do it, so why can't Microsoft?
Smoothound
24-02-2010, 12:44
How are your users even able to get exe's on to your system...we've stopped cnuts from getting cr@p on their machines by blocking removable media and any exe's etc through our web proxy.
EXEs are blocked, ZIPs aren't, so that's the usual delivery method. The AV takes care of any dodgy EXEs, and policy takes care of installers. Till Chrome of course. :rolleyes:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/976002
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/894199
Nice one mate G :thumbs:
Smoothound
24-02-2010, 12:47
Most users want to switch a computer on and use it with as little fuss as possible. Apple can do it, so why can't Microsoft?
Rumours are Apple will be a future target. Starting with iPhone and then OSX.
It's just been announced that Google are the next target (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02/24/google_antitrust_incoming/) under this EU reg. So what then? We go to Google.com and have to choose if we want Google, Yahoo, AltaVista or Lycos :wack:
It's f****ing rediculous, why can't people just accept they don't have the best/dominant product and stop bleating to the EU about it? :rant:
Rumours are Apple will be the next target. Starting with iPhone and then OSX.
LOL that will be an interestingo ne to watch, with apples love of restricting theur users quite heavily to what content they can have (Flash player etc)
It's just been announced that Google are the next target (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02/24/google_antitrust_incoming/) under this EU reg. So what then? We go to Google.com and have to choose if we want Google, Yahoo, AltaVista or Lycos :wack:
FFS, where will it end? it seems to me they are flogging a cash cow with this.
It's f****ing rediculous, why can't people just accept they don't have the best/dominant product and stop bleating to the EU about it? :rant:
nope its marketing and product placement, Apple proved this with the ipod, iphone Imac etc,
how many adverts on TV do you see for firefox, Opera etc? how many do you see for Apple and microsoft products?
bass_junkie123
24-02-2010, 12:58
What I wanna know is...
Why when I'm at work does IE not refresh my SXOC pages as I browse? If I don't visit for a few days I'll come on and it will show me the pages from a few days ago until I refresh?!
And why when I use FireFox at work Hotmail doesn't work properly and nor does when I try to pay for things online??
Rumours are Apple will be a future target. Starting with iPhone and then OSX.
It's just been announced that Google are the next target (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02/24/google_antitrust_incoming/) under this EU reg. So what then? We go to Google.com and have to choose if we want Google, Yahoo, AltaVista or Lycos :wack:
It's f****ing rediculous, why can't people just accept they don't have the best/dominant product and stop bleating to the EU about it? :rant:to be honest, I couldn't care less if they target Apple, Google et al, I just wish they'd leave them to get on with it. If a product really is shit then it will either be improved or die a death. It doesn't take armies of lawyers or fat-cat bureaucrats to work that out :rolleyes:
Yes a dominant position - and money - can be used to stiffle opposition but in the case of Internet Explorer, nobody ever bought a web-browser anyway, not to mention Netscape being even more hopelessly unreliable than IE4 or IE5 at the time :wack: . I remember those days and the constant moaning from customers that Netscape kept crashing so we always simply removed it and left it with IE instead. IE4 wasn't perfect by a long chalk - I remember the endless problems that Active Desktop's introduction caused :annoyed: . Even now, how is Microsoft stiffling competition when nobody charges for their browsers? Nobody is making money developing a web-browser so why does the EU care, except for the obvious cash motivator :rolleyes:
I remember those days and the constant moaning from customers that Netscape kept crashing so we always simply removed it and left it with IE instead. IE4 wasn't perfect by a long chalk - I remember the endless problems that Active Desktop's introduction caused :annoyed:
which ISP was it that the install discs came with Netscape? i remember when a customer would phone me up saying the internets was broke, find the fault to be the ISP, customer phones ISP first question "are you running Netscape?" if the answer was no they would say to reinstall it, even though the fault had Fcuk all to do with the browser
We go to Google.com and have to choose if we want Google, Yahoo, AltaVista or Lycos :wack:
slightly off topic .... but if rumours are true then Apple are Dropping google as their search engine on the iPhone and are joining forces with Microsoft to use BING :eek:
Tried using it the other day ...... finds the same sh1t that google does :wack:
which ISP was it that the install discs came with Netscape? i remember when a customer would phone me up saying the internets was broke, find the fault to be the ISP, customer phones ISP first question "are you running Netscape?" if the answer was no they would say to reinstall it, even though the fault had Fcuk all to do with the browserLoads of them did, Netscape was the biggest browser before IE4 and IE5 came along :nod: . I know Pipex bundled it but there were loads of others aswell.
The last few versions of Netscape were abysmal and hopelessly unreliable, so maybe they should have worked on that rather than bleating to the various authorities. As I say, IE was far from perfect (see last post re. IE4's active desktop feature), but I know that I had very few customers who had problems with IE5.
slightly off topic .... but if rumours are true then Apple are Dropping google as their search engine on the iPhone and are joining forces with Microsoft to use BING :eek:
Tried using it the other day ...... finds the same sh1t that google does :wack:Funny that :D . Have you seen the TED tech demo of Bing, showing it's "google maps" type stuff. It's seriously impressive, but funnily enough, it basically does what google maps does.
That's the thing with all this technology, somebody comes out with an idea and then others innovate and improve on it. The originator either picks up their game or is forgotten. That's the way it happens and it doesn't need courts and lawyers to get involved.
Asht_200
24-02-2010, 13:42
where did you find this out, any links etc?
the biggest headache if they remove IE from all installed versions will be company IT people, is this part of an autoupdate or what?
(this sounds agressive to you Smoothhound, its not i'm just annoyed with it and other stuff grrrr
I can imagine most IT depts will simply not approve this update via WSUS.
Smoothound
24-02-2010, 14:59
I know Pipex bundled it but there were loads of others aswell.
They sure did! My first WWW experience was Netscape and Pipex. Win 3.1 and a 14.4 BAUD (which was really fancy!). But yeah, if I ever opened IE (3, I think), it never rendered anything right!
Things have come along a bit!
mandelbug
24-02-2010, 15:00
Compuserve were the ones that put the Netscape CD on the front of every mag from memory
Smoothound
24-02-2010, 15:06
Didn't Compuserve have their own browser? Bit like AOL did/do? (do AOL still do that? fcking annoying!)
Didn't Compuserve have their own browser? Bit like AOL did/do? (do AOL still do that? fcking annoying!)
Hah yes they did, I remember that :wack:
AOL still has it's own browser, losers!
mandelbug
24-02-2010, 15:38
Netscape is now in bed with AOL, they do their own browser and a dial up service :eek: as far as I can tell. I remember they were on the front of pretty much every magazine that was around, thought they used Compuserv as the ISP but by sounds of it, it was someone else
Didn't Compuserve have their own browser? Bit like AOL did/do? (do AOL still do that? fcking annoying!)
Yep it's like Fisher Price My First Browser :wack:
not that you actually HAVE to use it though ;) Thank God :rolleyes:
Compuserve were the ones that put the Netscape CD on the front of every mag from memory
thats the one i was thinking of
Asht_200
24-02-2010, 15:54
Netscape is now in bed with AOL, they do their own browser and a dial up service :eek: as far as I can tell. I remember they were on the front of pretty much every magazine that was around, thought they used Compuserv as the ISP but by sounds of it, it was someone else
Netscape was bought by AOL..... as was Compuserv
And one of my customers ran the mailing company that sent all those CDs out :wack:
As has been mentioned, it would have been pointless for Compuserve to have sent Netscape CDs out as they had their own service, like AOL. Not only did you pay for your phone calls, but you paid Compuserve as well - £20 a month.
Smoothound - my first "online experience" was on Compuserve with a 2400bps modem which only worked at 1200bps :wack: . It took 12 hours to download the latest drivers for my Gravis Ultrasound soundcard from a BBS in America, as this was before t'internet was really popular. My parents loved that phone bill :D
What was the topic again? Oh yeah, stupid EU :whip:
Well we've just had a play with the update :wack:
Gives you a choice of around a dozen browers to choose from :wack:
Oh and it'll keep asking you even if you've got all 12 installed :wack:
(unless you bin the brower choice shortcut from your desktop :D)
Asht_200
24-02-2010, 16:25
Smoothound - my first "online experience" was on Compuserve with a 2400bps modem which only worked at 1200bps :wack: . It took 12 hours to download the latest drivers for my Gravis Ultrasound soundcard from a BBS in America, as this was before t'internet was really popular. My parents loved that phone bill :D
Mine to, then I moved onto CIX:wack:
ohhhgod. I provide tech support to some friends, who to put it mildly are pc illiterate. may go on holiday from march onwards..........
however, i always use firfox, except for one application, which DEMANDS IE is the default browser. it's MindLeaders training package that i get from the bank. will the MS splash screen cover this? oh no, panic. what to do. agghhh
Martin T
24-02-2010, 21:12
EXEs are blocked, ZIPs aren't, so that's the usual delivery method. The AV takes care of any dodgy EXEs, and policy takes care of installers. Till Chrome of course. :rolleyes:
Ahh yes. We block all compressed files as well :D
I've yet to get a legitimate request from a user to download an archive. They have been blocked for 6 months now.
Asht_200
24-02-2010, 22:13
Ahh yes. We block all compressed files as well :D
I've yet to get a legitimate request from a user to download an archive. They have been blocked for 6 months now.
You can get around many of these filters though by renaming a zip to .txt then sending
Martin T
25-02-2010, 14:48
You can get around many of these filters though by renaming a zip to .txt then sending
Our email scanner can see through those tricks.
Anyway, our users aren't that smart :wack:
However circumventing the web filter is potentially a disciplinary offense. All PC's get a software Audit done in the background each time they boot. Our helldesk operative checks the audit log daily.
It's far from perfect as the desktops aren't particularly locked down but we are working on that.
mandelbug
25-02-2010, 15:05
I have just been advised this is now live as another company has just had thier first PC hit with it
Definitely live, I have first hand experience with it.
Icon on the desktop and a window open on startup.
mandelbug
25-02-2010, 15:11
So much for due next week eh :wack:
The report said that they was testing/trialing this ween in Belgium, UK and some where else with a full roll out starting 1st March
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/microsoft/7294662/Microsoft-offers-Windows-users-a-browser-ballot-screen.html
Over the next week, as part of the testing process, some Windows PC users in the UK, France and Belgium, will see a 'ballot box' when they switch their computer on, allowing them to pick which web browser they want to use to access the internet.
A full-scale roll out to all Windows users across 30 European countries will begin around March 1.
tricksieboy
25-02-2010, 15:34
firefox, safari, chrome. all far superior to IE. chrome is my personal favourite, far faster than the rest :)
mandelbug
25-02-2010, 15:35
Cheers Monkey, explains why I can't find it on my WSUS server :)
Smoothound
01-03-2010, 17:03
It's still not appeared on my WSUS as of today. 52 new updates in, none of them relating to the Browser Choice "update".
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