E85 (Bioethanol) Powered 200SX (S14a) [Archive]

29-03-2007, 19:25

I came across this novel concept of bioethanol a while back, realised it was cheaper than petrol (by between 10 & 20%) & wondered what it took to run a normal car on it. After some poking around & some queries on the forum to see had anyone else done it (Who wants to go first (http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=235609&highlight=e85), Reducing Knock (http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=270344&page=2&highlight=e85), Rubber in the car (http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=273412&highlight=e85)). Turns out the closest thing is an LPG conversion so I figured since this is becoming more widely available in Ireland why not give it a shot?

After an email or two to greenfuels.co.uk, a chat with one or two people in the know here in Ireland & finally your good selves here in the club, I've come to the following...

Conclusions:
1) Since most cars can be converted over to using E85 using an aftermarket piggyback ECU that hooks straight into your injectors like this (http://www.greenfuels.co.uk/conversion_kits.htm) one, I figure since I've an aftermarket fully tunable ECU (PowerFC) then why not do the same?
2) There was a theory that E85, being more electrically conductive than petrol would arc in my tank across the electrodes of the submerged fuel pump (Walbro in my case) that I might be the victim of a massive explosion. Turns out that this isn't the case as the electrodes are sealed up anyway & if they weren't then the petrol would've been enough to cook me, you & everyone else who owns a 200SX.
3) There was an issue with the rubber hoses/washers/etc along the fuel-line from the tank to the engine being dissolved by the partially-alcohol-based fuel, but it turns out this is solely natural rubbers as opposed to the synthetic ones that have been installed in cars since fuel-injection became as standard so we're good to go here too.

So now that the main worries/issues are out of the way, let's have a look at...

The Positives:
1) E85 is better for the environment (:ghey:) but it also means decatting & going through an MOT/NCT may be possible without having cars retuned specifically for it.
2) It's 104RON....... I don't think I need to go into the benefits of running this kind of fuel but I will anyway:
- You can run higher boost levels without getting knock/detonation meaning you can get more power out of your car.
- It's a cleaner fuel & so your engine runs better
- You engine runs at a slightly lower temperature than it did before (assuming boost is the same) e.g. making you not have to invest in a more cooling radiator if you otherwise had overheating issues.
So basically it's the grade of fuel they run in rally-cars etc.
3) In Ireland anyway, it's cheaper than petrol! :) I'm not sure about UK prices or availability but by all means someone chip in here if they know more & I'll edit this post accordingly. Check out the Irish prices here (http://www.maxol.ie/wholesale_prices.html).

So you'd be running a fuel that's better for the environment (lol!) better for your engine, & can allow you run more power, & it's cheaper! :D

Now...

The Drawbacks:
1) It has been said it can increase fuel consumption up to 30% more than with petrol. It's calorific content (I'm told) is less than that of petrol cause ethanol doesn't produce as much energy when burnt as petrol. What I'd say about this is it's down to mapping as to how rich you decide to run your car (assuming you can remap your ECU) and also since you're getting more power gains from it, you're going to use more fuel (but you'll get places quicker! :D).
2) Ehhh.... I couldn't think of any so I'll draw out #1 there & say you may end up paying a little more in fuel than you did before simply cause the fuel gets chewed up more quickly but the lower price (again, I only know about the Irish scenario) will offset some of that.
3) Availability isn't widespread. So-far Maxol are the only petrol station I know that supply it & they (as yet) don't have many stations around Ireland that have it. They do however have a "phase 2" rollout of more stations around the country coming on-stream in July. I'll ask Muttly for more details cause he found that bit of info.

The Stations:
The current list of Maxol Stations with E85 in Ireland are here (http://www.maxol.ie/E85/index.html).

In the UK:
http://www.saabbiopower.co.uk/default.asp?docId=13115
(Thanks to Topper for those links! :thumbs:)

Also in the UK:
http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/fleet/Vehicles/Alternativefuels/Alternativefuelsrefuellingmap/index.cfm
(Thanks to Nicely for that one! :))

UK:
http://www.arunautogas.co.uk/E85-UK_ethanol_forecourt_filling_stations.htm
(Thanks to Ben for this one ;))

So here's...

The Plan:
On April 18th, my car's getting remapped for E85 & I'll know as of that day whether or not it'll work or not! :) The way I'm going about it is:
- Drive car to have it remapped
- Have the tank near-dry
- Either leave the dregs or pump what's left of the petrol from the tank
- Put in a petrol-can's worth of E85 into the tank
- Put it on the rollers & let the tuner do his thing
- Drive home & pray I don't blow up! :D
- Fill the tank up to the brim with E85 at my local petrol station. In Dublin, the only one I know of is in Sandymount, along the strand road on the left coming Merrion Gates, opposite the turnoff to go to the East Link Toll Bridge. There is one up the North-side somewhere but I don't know where it is yet. Have a look at Maxol.ie if you're interested & see if you can find the locations of all the stations that suplpy it.

I'll keep this thread updated as the adventure continues so if you're interested, watch this space! :thumbs:

JP :sxoc:

PS. Here's the SXOC's very own E85 Conversion Register (http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=403255)! :cool: If you've converted, add your name etc to the list!

PPS. Here's links to some of the info I worked off:
http://www.carnet.ie/features195.html
http://www.altfuels.org/backgrnd/altftype/e85.html
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/motors/2006/0823/1155714926135.html
http://www.maxol.ie/E85/q&a.html
http://www.maxol.ie/wholesale_prices.html
http://www.octane.ie/forum/index.php
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054883450&referrerid=59211
http://www.ecocar.ie/
http://www.greenfuels.co.uk/
http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id26.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85_in_standard_engines
http://e85forum.com/about415.html

nismo

29-03-2007, 19:43

I was looking in to this option when I have my car mapped but was put off by chanbing all the rubber seals etc.... and the lambda sensor.

But if they are not a problem I may still go ahead, just got to run the car in first.

mark_ashley

29-03-2007, 19:46

this looks good, im interested.

i hope you dont blow up... i will also keep my eye our for that petrol station on the way home now you have given us detailed directions lol :D

blue boy

29-03-2007, 20:05

Interesting idea this. Hope it all goes well but kudos for having the balls to give it a go:thumbs:

29-03-2007, 20:51

I think you'll have no problems :nod:

choco

29-03-2007, 22:01

ya i was was interested in this also. in theory, with the car tuned you should be able to get more power(quite a bit) also on ppc magazine, dave walker tuned his car with great results. the reason id go with this is for performance. do you know how much a litre this is. looking at the afr dave walker had it runs a good bit richer than petrol through the rev range. hope it goes well for you man:thumbs:

Richy_Boy

29-03-2007, 22:06

The only problem you might have is when you go for a decent drive, you might have problems finding a bio garage. It's bad enough with LPG, but at least we can switch back to petrol if we get stuck.

Having one 'rare' fuel source is a touch limiting, although turning your boost right down should allow you to run SUL I guess.

Sounds a good project though..

Rich

30-03-2007, 13:13

Interesting idea this. Hope it all goes well but kudos for having the balls to give it a go:thumbs:
Cheers! I'll see in a few weeks if it was worth it! Lol!

do you know how much a litre this is.
Yeah, it was 86c p/L last myself & Wratch checked. Check the prices link above for Maxol & that'll tell you the up-to-date prices! :nod:

i hope you dont blow up... i will also keep my eye our for that petrol station on the way home now you have given us detailed directions lol :D
Lol! Thanks... :wack:

I think you'll have no problems :nod:
Thanks for the vote of confidence SM! :) There's a bet on against me as to whether or not I'll blow up! :smash: Don't think that's a good way to start somehow..! Lol!

The only problem you might have is when you go for a decent drive, you might have problems finding a bio garage. It's bad enough with LPG, but at least we can switch back to petrol if we get stuck.

Having one 'rare' fuel source is a touch limiting, although turning your boost right down should allow you to run SUL I guess.
Was going to get either the PFC data cable or else just have a REALLY low boost setting in case I couldn't get any E85 but most major cities etc have it. Plus, I made it up North the other day, plenty of around-the-country driving & back to Dublin all on the one tank! :) Wasn't being nice to the revs either so I'll be OK in most situations - just gotta get a list of where the stations are is all..! :wack: Also, I'll be buying a jerry-can before I go to get it mapped! :thumbs:

Thanks for all the good wishes lads - I'm still not sure if I'm insane trying this out but let's hope for all our sakes (performance anyone???) it goes ok! :thumbs:

JP

wratch

30-03-2007, 13:37

i wish you many years of happy motoring runing on E85

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/6996/e85to8.jpg

may the cows never be constipated :sxoc:

cHiL

30-03-2007, 13:48

dont you have to run a map sensor for this? or am I getting confused?:wack: (Or have you got a D-jetro pfc?)

30-03-2007, 13:52

Lolol! :D Thanks buddy! :thumbs:

ian_t

30-03-2007, 13:52

30-03-2007, 13:53

dont you have to run a map sensor for this? or am I getting confused?:wack: (Or have you got a D-jetro pfc?)

Nope! I do have a D-Jetro on the way but am selling it now that you mention it! :) Hasn't even arrived in the country & I'm selling it! Lol! :wack: But that's for another thread..! ;)

xR33

30-03-2007, 14:20

You'll need more than a can to get it mapped surely? Maybe a Jerry can.....

chrisdsx

30-03-2007, 14:24

the way of the future

30-03-2007, 14:27

You'll need more than a can to get it mapped surely? Maybe a Jerry can.....

Sorry, that was meant to say Jerry Can! ;) Thanks! :)

choco

30-03-2007, 15:18

Is there any way to get commercial cheap duty free ethanol such as paint thinners or something ;) how much is it at uk forecourts as its not on petrolprices.com?

Unfortunatly it sounds like this isnt a option for me as i need the car for power but it may be an option for a second car as there are normally loads of greddy piggybacks being sold off cheap.

best of luck with it jp, will be watching :)

this stuff is for performance. look at dave walkers map. he was able to advace the ign an awful lot. 30 bhp and way more torque runing the same boost. only with the ign advanced.
the down side to this is that you have to pump a lot more fuel in. also you will have to get bigger injectors..

ian_t

30-03-2007, 15:51

Or I suppose a 33% raise in fuel pressure as my 740s are running up to 88%

...hmm

Steam

30-03-2007, 16:03

If you take a quick look on the green fuels website they say;

We are currently developing a small scale commercial ethanol kit which will provide the means to make your own ethanol fuel.

These will be available shortly so please keep checking for updates!

Topper

30-03-2007, 16:29

Am looking to get my car mapped soon anyway, so this could be an option, depending on how yours holds up :)

List of Maxol Station with E85 in Ireland
http://www.maxol.ie/E85/index.html

Found some in the UK -
http://www.saabbiopower.co.uk/pumplocations/

choco

30-03-2007, 16:51

theres only one in cork! thats sad. id take this root also if there were more stations suppling it. i could map it myself with the bikirom an all. dame im getting to like this idea

ian_t

30-03-2007, 16:54

Is this he same price as LPG or more expensive?

if its 85 a litre in ireland how much does petrol cost over there?

Richy_Boy

30-03-2007, 17:45

30-03-2007, 19:09

List of Maxol Station with E85 in Ireland
http://www.maxol.ie/E85/index.html

Legend! Thanks man! ;) I'll add that to the original thread! :thumbs:

if its 85 a litre in ireland how much does petrol cost over there?
Petrol at it's cheapest around Dublin is 103.9c a Litre at the moment.

JP

Irishpaddy

30-03-2007, 23:27

interesting... i'll let you be the gunea pig...:notworthy :thumbs:

wutang200

30-03-2007, 23:38

Good luck with the project mate :thumbs:

I still think you should keep that turbo and fit it :smash:

wratch

31-03-2007, 09:59

what he said about turbo !! :thumbs:

wutang200

31-03-2007, 15:23

Had a drive in SteA's last night whose also using the GT2871R and the power delivery is SAVAGELY lethal. VERY VERY quick!

folken

31-03-2007, 15:49

2) There was a theory that E85, being more electrically conductive than petrol would arc in my tank across the electrodes of the submerged fuel pump (Walbro in my case) that I might be the victim of a massive explosion. Turns out that this isn't the case as the electrodes are sealed up anyway & if they weren't then the petrol would've been enough to cook me, you & everyone else who owns a 200SX.
They are not ...

There is something on the electrodes, but I wonder if it's enough to really sealed them up.

Anyways, I have a Walbro on my car, the 2 electrodes are in contact with the petrol, there's nothing in the plug to seal them up, and I never heard any car with a Walbro that had a problem with that.
But maybe we would with E85 ?

And think you'll need 40% more E85 than fuel to make the same distance.

Loose Hand Luke

31-03-2007, 18:46

This is going to be very interesting.
I've a Megasquirt I was going to use as it has a MAP sensor and doesn't use the Lamda. But I think more info is needed.
Must go back and read Dave walkers articles in PPC more closely!!!

02-04-2007, 12:59

Had a drive in SteA's last night whose also using the GT2871R and the power delivery is SAVAGELY lethal. VERY VERY quick!

what he said about turbo !! :thumbs:
Oi! Go away the two of you! :p Vile temptresses!!! :whip: :D

They are not ...

There is something on the electrodes, but I wonder if it's enough to really sealed them up.

Anyways, I have a Walbro on my car, the 2 electrodes are in contact with the petrol, there's nothing in the plug to seal them up, and I never heard any car with a Walbro that had a problem with that.
But maybe we would with E85 ?
As for the Walbro being used in the cars, on the E85forum.com (one of the links in the first post) there's a good few performance cars using E85 in their cars with these pumps & sure if I'm feeling really paranoid I can always seal the pump connectors up with silicone/flange sealant! :thumbs: ...or something that's resistant to E85! :wack:

And think you'll need 40% more E85 than fuel to make the same distance.
As for 40% more, that's the highest figure I've ever heard! How do you figure that one mate?

JP

PhatBob

02-04-2007, 13:09

And think you'll need 40% more E85 than fuel to make the same distance.

That there is the biggest issue with ethanol - as it has half the calorific value of gasoline you need to use twice as much of the stuff by using larger injectors (not a problem 1000cc's will flow plenty for you- Kev's 392bhp was at 58% duty), double the pumping capacity - you'll be wanting twin Bosch 044 and wider bore fuel pipe.
EDIT Thinking about it this is 15% gas so the figure will need to be adjusted down to suit.

As for running out of the stuff, if you know to expect it you'll have set up the fuel system to run only one pump on a switch and upload a new map so that you can fill with petrol until the next E85 fill up.

You will absolutely, definately have to use lambda feedback too, as if you are mixing fuel types you'll need to have the ability for the lambda to trim the fuel accordingly. Thankfully lambda sensors are fuel neutral, so as the fuel changes lambda 1.0 will change with it.

Its exciting stuff, but it has a few challenges associated with it, I've found that you can get Methanol for 38p a litre (which is going to be in reality equivalent to 76p a litre for petrol price comparison. I suspect theres some issues with duty payments on using Methanol that will need to be looked into.)

Rob

02-04-2007, 13:46

That there is the biggest issue with ethanol - as it has half the calorific value of gasoline you need to use twice as much of the stuff by using larger injectors (not a problem 1000cc's will flow plenty for you- Kev's 392bhp was at 58% duty), double the pumping capacity - you'll be wanting twin Bosch 044 and wider bore fuel pipe.
EDIT Thinking about it this is 15% gas so the figure will need to be adjusted down to suit.
Does this mean that since it's 85% petrol that I'll still be ok with my 550cc's do you think?

As for running out of the stuff, if you know to expect it you'll have set up the fuel system to run only one pump on a switch and upload a new map so that you can fill with petrol until the next E85 fill up.
Why would I need a pump on a switch? At most I'd need a map on a switch but with the PFC I can't do that: I'd have to buy a data-cable & have a laptop handy which for now seems the only viable option... Mind you, those cables ain't cheap..! :(

You will absolutely, definately have to use lambda feedback too, as if you are mixing fuel types you'll need to have the ability for the lambda to trim the fuel accordingly. Thankfully lambda sensors are fuel neutral, so as the fuel changes lambda 1.0 will change with it.
As a more "safe" method (since I don't intend on switching back & forth between fuels) I was just going to have a really really low boost level for normal petrol in case I got stuck - fill up enough to get me to an E85 pump, refill, & up the boost again after the normal petrol's been given time to work through the system. Crude & slightly inefficient but it's a workaround in a less-than-ideal situation for now.

Its exciting stuff, but it has a few challenges associated with it, I've found that you can get Methanol for 38p a litre (which is going to be in reality equivalent to 76p a litre for petrol price comparison. I suspect theres some issues with duty payments on using Methanol that will need to be looked into.)

Rob
Haven't a clue about buying Methanol as such - only using the E85 for now. If down the line it seems viable to run on pure methanol then we'll see but for now I'll stick with what's commercially available (& slightly safer I think!) :)

Thanks for the tips Rob! :thumbs:

PhatBob

02-04-2007, 14:41

Does this mean that since it's 85% petrol that I'll still be ok with my 550cc's do you think?

Its 85% Ethanol, so you'll be pushing yout 550cc's for sure.

Why would I need a pump on a switch? At most I'd need a map on a switch but with the PFC I can't do that: I'd have to buy a data-cable & have a laptop handy which for now seems the only viable option... Mind you, those cables ain't cheap..! :(

You'd need half the capacity - if you run half the injector cycle with those 044 monsters running you'll have a lot of pressure for the system to cope with, switch them off.
Maps on switches are a bad idea, good to hear that the PFC doesnt have them.

As a more "safe" method (since I don't intend on switching back & forth between fuels) I was just going to have a really really low boost level for normal petrol in case I got stuck - fill up enough to get me to an E85 pump, refill, & up the boost again after the normal petrol's been given time to work through the system. Crude & slightly inefficient but it's a workaround in a less-than-ideal situation for now.

It not about boost though, its about timing advance, and fuel amount - you'll hit rich misfire and get oil contamination going that route.
Alternatively have two pumps and two sets of injectors switch one set off when you're on petrol, both on for E85 goodness - you'll still need to pull the timing and boost back though, accel tip-ins will probably be different.

Haven't a clue about buying Methanol as such - only using the E85 for now. If down the line it seems viable to run on pure methanol then we'll see but for now I'll stick with what's commercially available (& slightly safer I think!) :)

Thanks for the tips Rob! :thumbs:

E85 will become more common, you'll have a lot of pain being an early adopter, but I think it will be worth it as you'll have gained seriously useful knowledge for a fuel that will be the only way we'll be able to take part in our carbon un-friendly hobby in the future.
The future is bright though, E85 is far more common in Sweden (they have a non-EU approved agreement with Brazil for their cane ethanol) and it became quite popular for guys to buy old Volvo 240Turbos, stick on: HX50 turbos from the Scania trucks, 1000cc injectors and VEMS to control things, and have 500bhp drag cars for next to no money:thumbs:

02-04-2007, 16:50

Its 85% Ethanol, so you'll be pushing yout 550cc's for sure.
Well I have 740cc's that I'm waiting on that if I'm overdoing it I can just throw them in.

You'd need half the capacity - if you run half the injector cycle with those 044 monsters running you'll have a lot of pressure for the system to cope with, switch them off.

Don't quite understand what this means..? :confused:

It not about boost though, its about timing advance, and fuel amount - you'll hit rich misfire and get oil contamination going that route.
Alternatively have two pumps and two sets of injectors switch one set off when you're on petrol, both on for E85 goodness - you'll still need to pull the timing and boost back though, accel tip-ins will probably be different.
Right - cr4p. Guess it's time to start carrying a jerry-can in the tyre-well & get run-flats! :D That sounds way too complicated - I'm trying to keep this as simple as possible. Key: don't run out of petrol! :wack:

E85 will become more common, you'll have a lot of pain being an early adopter, but I think it will be worth it as you'll have gained seriously useful knowledge for a fuel that will be the only way we'll be able to take part in our carbon un-friendly hobby in the future.
The future is bright though, E85 is far more common in Sweden (they have a non-EU approved agreement with Brazil for their cane ethanol) and it became quite popular for guys to buy old Volvo 240Turbos, stick on: HX50 turbos from the Scania trucks, 1000cc injectors and VEMS to control things, and have 500bhp drag cars for next to no money:thumbs:

Lol! Gotta love those crazy Swedes..! ;) Yeah, it'll be hassle but sure if all else fails that what the other car's for: pulling me out of awkward situations or if the 200 blows up! Lol! :wack:

JP

Loose Hand Luke

02-04-2007, 21:36

I think converting to E85 is definately the "Way to go" for a performance hobby at the moment, but its not so good if you drive your car everyday at the moment purely because of availability of E85.
Once someone's worked out how to do it easily using ready available parts I think it'd be worth making a Sticky or a download pack to help others do it too.

I'm rebuilding my S13 so I'll probably incorporate elements needed for E85 into the car ready for when I can convert.
Being down on the Isle of Wight there's no E85 yet :(

choco

02-04-2007, 22:08

why do you think maps on switchs is a bad idea:confused:

02-04-2007, 22:28

Being down on the Isle of Wight there's no E85 yet :(

Ahh, stinger! :( Sure you can always make it yourself with a home production kit! :thumbs: Check out the biofuels website in the links on the first post, they're in the middle of developing one I think. I'm sure there's other ones out there already too! :)

Loose Hand Luke

02-04-2007, 22:46

Ahh, stinger! :( Sure you can always make it yourself with a home production kit! :thumbs: Check out the biofuels website in the links on the first post, they're in the middle of developing one I think. I'm sure there's other ones out there already too! :)

That'd be awesome! Brew your own in the shed then hit the town :thumbs:
More worth while than moonshine, althought that's been proven to run engines nicely...
:sxoc:

02-04-2007, 22:57

That'd be awesome! Brew your own in the shed then hit the town :thumbs:
More worth while than moonshine, althought that's been proven to run engines nicely...
:sxoc:

Ha ha ha ha! :D Must try that sometime... :nod: ...in the car that is..! :wack:

skyshack

02-04-2007, 23:14

OEM systems use an fuel mix sensor AKA Flex Fuel sensor. It's fitted in the fuel hose and measures the ethanol content. Allows any mix from 100% ethanol to 100% petrol. So it doesn't matter what fuel you can get, the ECU is told what it's using and adjusts accordingly. Normally the GM or Ford parts cost around $500, it's something like this but in bag that says Ford or GM on it -so it looks like Siemens, Ford/GM etc and the dealer all make 100% on a $60 part.
http://www.siemensvdo.com/products_solutions/powertrain/sensors/powertrain/flex-fuel-sensor/

Megasquirt uses a GM part - someone is selling them cheap $50.
http://www.megamanual.com/flexfuel.htm
(Phatbob - will VEMS do this? Or have they gone too far down different paths?)

E85 likes to be very much richer for max power than petrol. It's not just a simple case of bung xx% more fuel in across the whole range. The megasquirt web page shows the ratio of petrol to E85 at stoichiometric to be 146% (1.46x the amount), for (avg) best power it's 12.5/7.65 = 163% (1.63x), injectors / pumps need sizing to met that best power demand

On a normally mapped ECU like the stock Nissan ones without spare programmable external inputs you could have 8 or 16 maps to cover the range 95-105RON. 128K rom chip(s) will do. If you could be sure of always getting 99RON octane petrol or E85 then you could use fewer maps. Using the sensor on PIC chip interface the map switching would have to be latched when the ECU is doing a memory / IO write - it's not accessing rom. Otherwise a bit of maths and a careful record of what has gone in the tank could be used for manual selection on leaving the pump. The mix won't change while driving and what's in the fuel rail will purge back to the tank during priming. Mapping sessions would need to use at least 3 fuel mixes, 100% petrol of the lowest octane you would use, 100% E85 and a 50/50 mix of the two. You can fill in the other maps as either a straight line or a parabola fitted though the 3 points.

There is a technique called "virtual octane sensor", this uses lambda, knock sensor and ion ignition detection to find the mixture and best ignition for whatever mix of fuel is used. AFAIK No aftermarket ECU is clever enough yet.

Fuel tanks very rarely contain an explosive mix of air and fuel vapour. If there is liquid fuel sloshing around in there the vapour mix is usually so rich that it's not explosive (it is at vents, the filler or any other hole - the free air dilutes the mix very close to the hole). It's when you drain the tank and there is just a small amount left in seams that it leans out to the point that it will go bang.

02-04-2007, 23:25

So what you're saying is my injectors will be maxed out at this rate? SOrry, I need more sleep before I can fully understand all that! :sleep:

JP

PhatBob

02-04-2007, 23:50

Megasquirt uses a GM part - someone is selling them cheap $50.
http://www.megamanual.com/flexfuel.htm
(Phatbob - will VEMS do this? Or have they gone too far down different paths?)

Nope we dont have that, as we have the built-in wideband controller and UEGO feedback it was never really considered as an option. I think also thats one of the US based options, never seen it over here.

Rob

03-04-2007, 08:03

So in a sentence Skyshack, are you saying we have a problem? Sorry about this but I can't be the only person who looked at that & when "huh?!" If I'm JUST running E85 & have my car mapped to suit, is there a problem?

JP

Loose Hand Luke

03-04-2007, 18:52

If I'm JUST running E85 & have my car mapped to suit, is there a problem?

JP

No. Just as long as you change everything you need to.
What I think people are getting at is the difficulty of changing between fuels once you've converted to allow you to choose.
A car mapped and set up for only E85 will work fine.

03-04-2007, 19:36

No. Just as long as you change everything you need to.
What I think people are getting at is the difficulty of changing between fuels once you've converted to allow you to choose.
A car mapped and set up for only E85 will work fine.

That's exactly what I wanted to hear! :D :sxoc:

WeirdNeville

05-04-2007, 11:11

PhatBob

05-04-2007, 19:28

This is a fasinating project - Hope it works out well!

My big bug-bear with High Performance motoring at the moment is the Ostrich response to Carbon Output. Combined with our increased reliance on rogue states to keep oil prices low, it puts us in a less and less tenable position with regards to our hobby.

"In ten years we'll all be driving Electric/Hydrogen Powered cars" Errr, no we won't. No-one seems to consider the full life cycle of these vehicles. Hybrids get very poor fuel economy in spirited driving and weigh too much. Electric will always have a limited range and no-one seems to consider where the electricity comes form in the first place - Burning Fossil fuels, inefficiently, and then transporting it hundreds of miles in cables with all it's associated losses. And as for the environmental issues surrounding batteries - Forgeddabout-it!

Bio-Fuel is the way forwards. A zero Carbon fuel option which can preserve oil resources for really important uses, reduce our reliance on other states for energy or at least spread the burden, and increase performance to boot!

If E85 were widely available on the forecourt I'd not hesistate in switching my SX over to it. Then my eco-missus could stop bitching about it's inefficiency, and I'd get to enjoy an extra few Bhp with a clear conscience.

Lets hope the SX leads the way in conversions, to prove how easy it can be!

A turbo'ed engine is an execeptionally good basis for a bio-ethanol or bio-butanol fuel. A quick glance around the forum will see that most people tend to be limited in their power and reliability by the octane of the fuels that are readily available.

Ethanol is going to be the solution to a fair degree of our fuel needs, unfortunately its production and uptake is going to be subject to the same sort of political bartering that the whole CO2/global warming debate is. In the US its 'common knowledge' that Ethanol is not the solution because the can't grow enough corn to satisfy demand.
The trouble is that corn is one of the least suitable crops to use for Ethanol production! The reason the septics are reliant on it is because of the political lobbying power from the corn growers.
Brazil on the other hand has no such problem and creates enough ethanol for its internal and export requirements. Once there is a sufficiently large demand for sugar cane, the equitorial African county's farmers (that have been massively screwed by the Common Agricultural Policy) would be potential bio-mass producers.
Some would argue that this is changing one unstable political source to another, but if this was to be done following the Fair Trade business model we might see a slightly more acceptable solution.

So there you have it, its a fairly trite, heavily biased to my own beliefs, summary of the advantages of Ethanol aside from the obvious engine power benefits.

keasty

05-04-2007, 21:01

ive just read this thread and am i right in thinking you will need twice as much fuel to go the same distance and it costs about the same as petrol?

06-04-2007, 05:44

ive just read this thread and am i right in thinking you will need twice as much fuel to go the same distance and it costs about the same as petrol?

In a word, no. E85 is cheaper (by 10-20% depending where you go) MPG is slightly reduced, performance is increased, emissions are lower, it's a better fuel for your engine which means it'll last longer & have less bung-ups along fuel lines, injectors etc. Believe me, I'm not interested in converting to some random fuel-source for the laugh... :thumbs:

Oh, & it'll either work out the same price or better than using petrol depending on the price & how you've the car tuned. :nod:

JP

PhatBob

08-04-2007, 23:42

In a word, no. E85 is cheaper (by 10-20% depending where you go) MPG is slightly reduced, performance is increased, emissions are lower, it's a better fuel for your engine which means it'll last longer & have less bung-ups along fuel lines, injectors etc. Believe me, I'm not interested in converting to some random fuel-source for the laugh... :thumbs:

Oh, & it'll either work out the same price or better than using petrol depending on the price & how you've the car tuned. :nod:

JP

One tiny issue here in the UK. As part of the government's green initiative they've decided that the duty on "eco" fuel should be increased to the same amount as the dino juice we all know and love.

Rob

08-04-2007, 23:58

Still though, better fuel for the same money, I'd still buy it! :)

RohanC

10-04-2007, 21:43

This is a fasinating project - Hope it works out well!

My big bug-bear with High Performance motoring at the moment is the Ostrich response to Carbon Output. Combined with our increased reliance on rogue states to keep oil prices low, it puts us in a less and less tenable position with regards to our hobby.

"In ten years we'll all be driving Electric/Hydrogen Powered cars" Errr, no we won't. No-one seems to consider the full life cycle of these vehicles. Hybrids get very poor fuel economy in spirited driving and weigh too much. Electric will always have a limited range and no-one seems to consider where the electricity comes form in the first place - Burning Fossil fuels, inefficiently, and then transporting it hundreds of miles in cables with all it's associated losses. And as for the environmental issues surrounding batteries - Forgeddabout-it!

Bio-Fuel is the way forwards. A zero Carbon fuel option which can preserve oil resources for really important uses, reduce our reliance on other states for energy or at least spread the burden, and increase performance to boot!

If E85 were widely available on the forecourt I'd not hesistate in switching my SX over to it. Then my eco-missus could stop bitching about it's inefficiency, and I'd get to enjoy an extra few Bhp with a clear conscience.

Lets hope the SX leads the way in conversions, to prove how easy it can be!

Wholesale Electric production per KW/h is vastly more efficiant than the combustion engine in a car, as is the power distibution network, when compared to the energy used in defraction and lugging 1,000,000's of tons of oil around!

And as Bob said, grain is a shit source of BioMass, but goverments are to suseptable to the influence of lobby groups :rolleyes:

There is promise from a project i read about though, where they have managed to turn the whole of the crop of grain into Ethanol, rather than just the heads of corn.

Saying that, considering the bulk of crop you can get from Cannabis plants i cant work out why people arnt researching that as a fuel :D

BTW, my misses is Eco mad, but loves fast cars too :sxoc:

alexjj

10-04-2007, 22:21

A friend of an ex of mine just got hired last year in a start up with huge cash injection for bio engineered life forms which converts any plant source into ethanol.

Thats right, synthetic life - totally artifically created - no divine intervention at all. The first synthetic life form was a virus, created in 2001 but peer reviewed later (check it out on Google scholar - peer reviewed in "Science").

The premise is - these artificial bacteria become hugely efficient engines, metabolising plant material into fuel. The more they feed, the more efficient (until certain density of organism/fuel/feed/metabolites) they are.

Its based in Guildford, near the satellite and space research park I think..

I asked for a discount.. Anyways - they are gearing up - as are many start ups - this is the next wave - a lot of money being invested in it. You dont create artificial life for nothing with no prospect of a return, it takes several Phd students slogging away for years to make artificial life!

Here is one synthetic bacterium http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/299/5607/640?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=synthetic+life&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT
Which moved things on from the old days (2001.. ;)) where we could only create viruses from scratch.

Its increasingly simple to code in instructions to life using chemical ones and zeroes into a genome now - thankfully its mostly robotised - I have seen vast farms... of robots, all making life.. you wouldnt believe it!

PhatBob

10-04-2007, 22:35

Wholesale Electric production per KW/h is vastly more efficiant than the combustion engine in a car, as is the power distibution network, when compared to the energy used in defraction and lugging 1,000,000's of tons of oil around!

And as Bob said, grain is a shit source of BioMass, but goverments are to suseptable to the influence of lobby groups :rolleyes:

Its a good source of biomass, just not a particularly good one:no:
Take a look at what BP and British Sugar have been doing with bio-butanol though.

There is promise from a project i read about though, where they have managed to turn the whole of the crop of grain into Ethanol, rather than just the heads of corn.

The holy grail of extracting the hydrocarbons from cellulous, its technically possible but then again so is cold fusion.

Saying that, considering the bulk of crop you can get from Cannabis plants i cant work out why people arnt researching that as a fuel :D[/QUOTE]

Re-read your lobbying group sentence and put it here. Cotton growers took down the hemp industry back when god was a boy. As an oil seed rape is better and for ethanol its not carbohydrate rich enough. I live in East Anglia where sugar beet is grown, lots of carbs in that.

BTW, my misses is Eco mad, but loves fast cars too :sxoc:

I'm eco mad too - I love this planet. I aint too keen on the people on it mind you.

johnnyhillen

10-04-2007, 22:47

all very interesting and it sounds like fun but does any one know of a supplier in northern ireland

alexjj

10-04-2007, 22:49

I agree... one thing we could code into one of her bacteriums would be the ability to metabolise other things.. like..

What is a plentiful supply of materials, and even INCREASES in numbers during periods of drought, lack of resources - even lack of education? Why... Chavs or other scum!

Metabolise them in huge vats - like in the video Pink Floyd the Wall - they all march into a huge vat...

And out the bottom - 105RON!!!! Cant say fairer than that.. ;) Never ending supply of fuel.. just keep Asda on the go and the catholic church forbidding condoms et voila.... ;) might have to bump up Burberry production mind..

err possible all of that but...

socially desirable? just so we can burn it in huge quantities???

Yer... ;)

Sorry Johnny hillen - check out maxol.ie - for Irish sites - think ESSO is being bought over to launch E85

johnnyhillen

10-04-2007, 22:52

forgot to say kudos to jp for having the balls to go for it, lets hope he doesn't blow ireland to pieces

have u ever considered remote start for the car

alexjj

10-04-2007, 23:01

Ah didnt see your signature Johnny the link I gave you is for Ireland, not NI - Im not sure where you would get it there.. How far are you from the nearest Maxol bio fuel site - too far to make it worth while?

johnnyhillen

10-04-2007, 23:14

pity cause i think the car is under fueling cause the injectors are too small and so i would have just got an extra larger size and it would need mapped any way, i'll prob get the extra larger size anyway incase bio becomes feasable in the future

alexjj

10-04-2007, 23:22

I think you might want to lobby Maxol - ask them - or the govt body for UK and dependencies is energysavingtrust.org.uk I think, check with them - but I checked out their locator for you and not good am afraid - worthwhile asking both bodies - of course :thumbs: E85 is what I want to be moving to myself.

WeirdNeville

11-04-2007, 01:55

Wholesale Electric production per KW/h is vastly more efficiant than the combustion engine in a car, as is the power distibution network, when compared to the energy used in defraction and lugging 1,000,000's of tons of oil around..

I know, I truncated my original post because it got a bit rant-like. I trained as a geologist and so have a very good handle on the overall impact of the production and consumption of fossil fuels. All I was getting at was that the "green set" have a very 2D view of things. They forget that although the car may run on electrickery, it still has to come from somewhere, and that somewhere in the UK is still from fossil fuels, albeit at a power station some distance away. Factor in the horrendous amounts of unpleasant metals in most high-tech batteries and you have a whole host of environmental problems that are only under wraps at the moment because electric cars are a novelty item.

When you look at the overall impact of fossil fuel consumption it's blindingly obvious that things will have to chage in the future. BP didn't change their name to "Beyond Petroleum" for no reason!

11-04-2007, 22:37

forgot to say kudos to jp for having the balls to go for it, lets hope he doesn't blow ireland to pieces

have u ever considered remote start for the car

Lol! Thanks man... I think! :smash:

I PMSL when I read that! :D :notworthy No... it'll be my tuner who'll be running the car first before I even get there, & Meath is a good bit away from Dublin so I think I'll miss the fallout anyway! :D :wack:

JP

17-04-2007, 16:42

So, update on this: I'd hoped to get the car upgraded a little before sending her off for the remap but this didn't happen cause we discovered there was a lot more to the work than met the eye, & for want of a 13mm spanner! :annoyed:

The Nismo 740cc injectors haven't arrived yet so we'll see how I'll get on with the SARD 550cc I have in there now.

Thanks a million to Kopijack & Wratch who've volunteered to help me out (I fell ill as of last saturday & am officially off work til this coming friday). They've been kind enough to offer to drive my car down the country to leave it to be mapped & pick up the necessaries along the way etc. By this I mean 25L of E85 in jerry-can format, & a quarter-tank of 95 sitting there to burn on the rolling-road as the car is tuned. Once it's been tuned on 95 to the best it can be it'll be "adjusted" for running E85 & a separate map saved. I figured 25L (nearly half a tank) was enough for Martin @ Westward to get used to the stuff, map it & to get the car back to Dublin! :) If not, I'm rightly screwed! :wack:

So by the end of it I hope to have:
1) A 200SX running on bioethanol (E85)
2) 2 empty jerry-cans
3) A hole in my pocket
4) 2 maps (1 95RON & 1 104RON) that I can switch between if necessary once I buy the PowerFC data cable... which isn't the easiest to find & at that not the cheapest to buy! :(

Let's hope it all works out ok & come the weekend I've an eco-friendly Smirnoff-smelling MONSTER!!! :D:D:D

JP

PS. For those of you who haven't come across E85 before, it smells like Vodka! :)
*JP at the pumps* "One for you, one for me! One for you..."

18-04-2007, 13:08

PhatBob

18-04-2007, 14:28

Oh yeah, I've asked for the emissions readings before & after the conversion's been done so we'll see how much it'll lower our emissions coming from the same map & just using the different fuel! :thumbs:

Want to see if I can pass the NCT (National Car Test - Irish version of the MOT) without a cat! :)

JP

The question is should Ethanol cars even be tested to the same emissions regulations? For example unburnt HydroCarbons from Petrol are filthy toxic things that get in the water supply and cause harm to living organisms. Unburnt ethanol will not polute water in anything like the same way, admittedly it may cause fish to get drunk and have ad-hoc parties.
The CO2 from the combustion is from a much shorter carbon cycle and therefore should be less highly taxed than the CO2 from burning dead dinosaurs.

I'll be eagerly awaiting all the data you're gonna publish :)

Rob

18-04-2007, 14:54

Unburnt ethanol will not polute water in anything like the same way, admittedly it may cause fish to get drunk and have ad-hoc parties.

WOO HOOOOO!!! Drunken fish parties!! :wack:

The question is should Ethanol cars even be tested to the same emissions regulations? ... The CO2 from the combustion is from a much shorter carbon cycle and therefore should be less highly taxed than the CO2 from burning dead dinosaurs.

I'll be eagerly awaiting all the data you're gonna publish :)

Rob

Yeah, we'll see how this works when our new system of road-tax here in Ireland comes in next year (based on engine-size we have a "wealth/road tax"). It's supposed to be aimed at SUVs & 4x4s & Mercs etc. but anything that's 2L or more is fair game.

Cheers, I'm eagerly awaiting the job to be finished! :D

gsi_ire

19-04-2007, 21:13

first to say congrats... first to say congrats.....

now maxol get your ass in gear and bring E85 to carlow!

20-04-2007, 00:17

Ha ha ha! Thanks dude! :thumbs:

Well folks, got back & she's now making a more-than-healthy 343bhp @ the fly!!! :eek: (up from 327.5 on 95 was her best) She's still at 1.2bar on the S15 Ball-bearing turbo (GT28R).

From memory:
- The ignition advance that Martin got on it was very very good according to him. He also noted that now it's a lot more clear how the Jap lads can get the power figures they do over there! ...we've got 104 too baby! :D

- The SARD 550cc injectors I'm running really should be replaced as they're nearly maxed! They're getting replaced with new Nismo 740cc's that I should have by next weekend! :)

- There's not a hope of me being able to put 95RON in the tank & expecting it to run. At all. Ever. The maps are far too different.

- The price as it stands today for a Litre of E85 is 89.9c p/L. The cheapest you'll get in Dublin for petrol is 107.9 p/L.

- It's a more pleasant smell than petrol if you do get a whiff of it unexpectedly.

- It's far more oxygenated than 95 so more fuel does have to be pumped in to compensate, as to how much or if it'll affect consumption, time will tell. On the way back I didn't see the guage drop as I would normally when on-boost with 95 but that's purely subjective.

- Cars won't be able to run this without a remap/special piggyback ECU from what I was told & the research I've done to-date was correct in assuming that.

So it does work, the tank's been filled up to the brim for a lot cheaper than I would normally expect & so I suppose watch this space for how I get on over the next while! Also feel free to ask any questions cause I won't remember everything Martin @ Westward said to me off the top of my head! :)

JP:thumbs:
Now running on E85 (Bioethanol)!

RayTsang

20-04-2007, 02:46

congrads JP

so E85 works... with an extra 25 bhp increase too. Nice.

im now considering this myself as theres a maxol with the stuff quite close to me.

PhatBob

20-04-2007, 07:58

Excellent stuff:thumbs:

Richy_Boy

20-04-2007, 08:24

Interesting work there :nod:

It's not much help to you, but speaking to Jez a while back regarding my LPG setup... he suggested that he could put two map chips in my ECU and have a switch to jump between them (on the fly). He said he could automate this as my LPG unit has a light that comes on when on LPG - hence a trigger.

Of course, running two chips would allow a spot on map for both 95 and 104RON - including ignition optimisation. I note you're in Ireland, so bugger all use :D

Rich

20-04-2007, 09:40

Cheers lads! :thumbs:

Interesting work there :nod:

It's not much help to you, but speaking to Jez a while back regarding my LPG setup... he suggested that he could put two map chips in my ECU and have a switch to jump between them (on the fly). He said he could automate this as my LPG unit has a light that comes on when on LPG - hence a trigger.

Of course, running two chips would allow a spot on map for both 95 and 104RON - including ignition optimisation. I note you're in Ireland, so bugger all use :D

Rich

Cheers for the idea Rich, I've been advised against this route as the maps are far too different & the tank would have to be drained to the vapour every time I were to change over as the fuel-types are so vastly different. The E85 is far more oxygenated & so runs far too lean for a 95 map setup. Also, gotta try & encourage people to spend less money on fuel & take care of their environment *cough* engines!! *cough* at the same time! :thumbs: It is possible but I think if E85 is becoming more widely available it's the way forward for cars, performance or otherwise. But we'll see..! :thumbs:

Now, just to give you all a laugh:
Went out to the car this morning to start it...

*tries tries tries.... nothing*

OK....

*tries tries tries.... nothing*

Crap...

*Looks for Hand Commander*

Hmm, now what was that setting he told me to adjust yesterday of this happened?? :wack:

*tries tries tries.... nothing*

Hmmm....

*Plays around with it a bit more; tries tries tries.... cough cough splutter dead*

Grand! I know where to look now! :smash:

Figured it out! It's the Water Temperature correction needed some extra fuel low-down so I added a small bit more & more until she started so it's just a matter of playing that one out in the hotter & colder weather until I get each temperature right.

So small teething problem but easily solved! :thumbs: ...once your tuner is nice enough to show you what is likely to go wrong! :D :notworthy

JP

20-04-2007, 15:06

From where does Maxol get Bioethanol?

The supplier of bioethanol for this E85 fuel is Carbery Group, in Ballineen, Co. Cork, and the source product is milk.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmilk iiiiiit! :D
<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/mmKhgiCUWxc"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/mmKhgiCUWxc" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

(Thanks to Fitz1979 for the link! :thumbs:)

PhatBob

20-04-2007, 15:48

*Plays around with it a bit more; tries tries tries.... cough cough splutter dead*

Grand! I know where to look now! :smash:

Figured it out! It's the Water Temperature correction needed some extra fuel low-down so I added a small bit more & more until she started so it's just a matter of playing that one out in the hotter & colder weather until I get each temperature right.

So small teething problem but easily solved! :thumbs: ...once your tuner is nice enough to show you what is likely to go wrong! :D :notworthy

JP

Cold start enrichment, you might find that you need a gnat's more cranking advance if you have that as an option to play with. Ethanol also gets harder to fire off as things get colder so you may find that next winter you have to do this again. What would it be like to have a controlled environment rolling road eh?

20-04-2007, 19:38

Cold start enrichment, you might find that you need a gnat's more cranking advance if you have that as an option to play with.
What's Cranking Advance when it's at home? Noticed that in the Hand Controller but wasn't something I was going to mess with when I haven't been shown! :smash:

Ethanol also gets harder to fire off as things get colder so you may find that next winter you have to do this again.
Yeah was saying that - I need to wait until the hotter & colder weather to get them all right. I'd say the hot-starts are ok though because the car would've been restarted a few times during tuning cycles.

What would it be like to have a controlled environment rolling road eh?
Lol! Yeah, I wish! :rolleyes: ...we can all dream though..! :smitten:

JP

skyshack

21-04-2007, 09:18

- The price as it stands today for a Litre of E85 is 89.9c p/L. The cheapest you'll get in Dublin for petrol is 107.9 p/L.That's nice for Ireland. If consumption is 20% higher you break even. I've seen sources that say optimal mapped turbos can run at as little as 10% higher consumption, while most N/A cars will use about 27% more.

UK price difference of 2p/L less than 95ron means price difference is only about 2% and about 10% compared to 98ron Super. On UK price difference, it only makes any sense when compared to Vpower or the like. There are some huge variations in price, can get Super for less than some places charge for 95.
http://www.petrolprices.com/search.html?search=Derby%2C+Leicestershire

Was that 25bhp gain for normal 95ron unleaded to E85 or 98ron super to E85 or 100ron Vpower to E85?

Muttly

21-04-2007, 10:23

Regular 95 to E85.

cHiL

21-04-2007, 11:05

That's nice for Ireland. If consumption is 20% higher you break even. I've seen sources that say optimal mapped turbos can run at as little as 10% higher consumption, while most N/A cars will use about 27% more.

UK price difference of 2p/L less than 95ron means price difference is only about 2% and about 10% compared to 98ron Super. On UK price difference, it only makes any sense when compared to Vpower or the like. There are some huge variations in price, can get Super for less than some places charge for 95.
http://www.petrolprices.com/search.html?search=Derby%2C+Leicestershire

Was that 25bhp gain for normal 95ron unleaded to E85 or 98ron super to E85 or 100ron Vpower to E85?

V Power round here is 99ron:confused:

Well done jp:thumbs: for at least having the balls to do it:)

Muttly

21-04-2007, 12:12

V Power round here is 99ron:confused:V-Power over here is only 95 with some cleaning additive stuff. We've only got 95 or 104(E85), excluding race fuels etc.

cHiL

21-04-2007, 12:22

V-Power over here is only 95 with some cleaning additive stuff. We've only got 95 or 104(E85), excluding race fuels etc.

yeah but over here it's 99 IIRC not 100 as per skyshack's earlier post

21-04-2007, 13:53

Well done jp:thumbs: for at least having the balls to do it:)

Cheers dude! :thumbs: When even the tuner is skeptical you've gotta wonder about yourself when doing something a little mad like this..! :eek: But when it all works out in the end... :D Man, I've not stopped buzzing at the thought of taking her out every time I think of it since! :D

By the way, again it may be subjective, but despite being on-boost a good-few times the fuel doesn't seem to be dropping as much........ :D

JP

cHiL

21-04-2007, 19:42

excellent! :D

DaveV

23-04-2007, 10:56

Well done dude, did it work out cheapr than a turbo upgrade for the extra 25hp?

23-04-2007, 23:28

Well done dude, did it work out cheapr than a turbo upgrade for the extra 25hp?
Lol! MUCH! :thumbs: Would highly recommend the stuff! :nod: But again, we'll see in a month or so whenever I've gotten around to doing my service what state she's in! I'm expecting the oil to be manky cause of the E85 cleaning out the engine & throwing all the horrible gunk that comes with our 95 into the oil & fuel filters.

JP

Pablo13

24-04-2007, 12:23

Muttly

24-04-2007, 12:37

Inspirational thread :thumbs:

Would like to try something similar in the future with my car when the spare cash is available. So is there no way this would run without a remap? Is there no way of offsetting the fuel useage by turning down the boost or upping the fuel pressure on your exsisting map and not taking advantage of the ignition advance? Just thinking of a way of keeping it cheap as it sounds like a great idea and only ecu and possibly injector adjustments to the car are needed. Im sure Ive seen ethanol for sale in places like parmacys and hardware stores in bottles before....maybe worth finding out if its cheaper anywhere else :wack: (the more I read that the more I sound like a cheapskate!)That won't work. First off the map is far too different. Second E85 is not ethanol, its a 85% ethnaol/15% petrol mix. Pure ethanol will do a lovely job of placing the head of your engine perfectly through your windscreen. You can however buy a kit from http://www.greenfuels.co.uk/ that just plugs in and auto detects the difference in fuel and adjusts sparking etc but its not aimed at being performance based as JP's conversion is.

PhatBob

24-04-2007, 14:20

Pure ethanol will do a lovely job of placing the head of your engine perfectly through your windscreen.

Why's that?

Muttly

24-04-2007, 14:23

PhatBob

24-04-2007, 15:22

I can't remember the exact nubmers of specific details but IIRC it has to be diluted a fair amount or its pretty explosive stuff.. Something to do with the amount of oxygen in it that it can burn very fast. Something burning very fast = expanding very fast. Expanding very fast + slow valve train = boom.

The reason it has 15% petrol is to aid with the cold starting that JP posted about. As for the explosive part, I think you'd need a lot of latent heat to get it to vapourise sufficiently.

One of the reasons that you have so much timing advance with ethanol is because of the length of burn time.

I couldnt find any info of ethanol exposivity(is that a word?) when I did a quick google, but that is not by any means a conclusive search.

Rob

charlay

24-04-2007, 17:14

it is the future
Koenigsegg CCXR new faster production car in the world
http://autoreview.belproject.com/item/350
http://www.seriouswheels.com/cars/top-2007-Koenigsegg-CCXR.htm

they've remapped ethe CCXs engine and upped the boost to get an extra 200 horses. says in sweden they use 113 RON

Muttly

24-04-2007, 17:17

Like I said I can't remember where I saw it........ I could be thinking of methanol though. Don't mind me, I think I'm just having one of those days.

28-04-2007, 03:18

Inspirational thread :thumbs:
Thanks buddy! :thumbs:

So is there no way this would run without a remap?
Well not safely & without bigger injectors & a fuel-map to match that I know of - by all means someone prove me wrong here & show me a cheaper way to have this working in my car (now that it's done!:wack:)

I can't remember the exact nubmers of specific details but IIRC it has to be diluted a fair amount or its pretty explosive stuff.. Something to do with the amount of oxygen in it that it can burn very fast.
There's nothing mad about pure ethanol - the Ford Model T was designed to run of ethanol or petrol & in the same way (although not specifically with it in mind in the design I'm sure) our cars are well-able to run it. Having said that the replacement of natural rubbers in the car with synthetic ones allow for more corrosive substances to be used in the car & not affect it's transport/containment/storage (i.e. fuel-tank, lines, seals, etc)

Oh & the fact that a lot of cars in Brazil run on pure ethanol will be the standard argument against why engines won't suddenly pop through your windscreen.

As for the cold-starting it's a pretty big issue for me at the moment as I have to adjust the cranking & water-temp settings on the PowerFC to get it to start in the mornings: I am fiddling with them until I get the engine to start first-time (currently on 3rd-time starts) in the morning. It's all good though, it's fine once it's over the 30 degrees mark! :)

JP

skyshack

28-04-2007, 09:11

ALL FUELS ARE HIGHLY EXPLOSIVE ... in the right vapour / air mixture.

LNG/CNG Liquid/Compressed natural gas - see Ronan Point :eek:
LPG Liquid petroleum gas autogas, red bottle/white "calor" tank domestic propane - look for BLEVE.
Ethanol, Methanol, Petrol - are all a bit safer as they are not stored under pressure and only vapourise slowly at normal temperatures.

Diesel is quite a bit safer. If you put a match to a puddle of diesel the match goes out. Heat it up so it vapourises and vapour/air mix is explosive like all the others. This says no reports of diesel explosions in Germany but there have been events in engine rooms of ships operating in tropical regions.
http://www.unece.org/trans/doc/2003/wp29grsg/TRANS-WP29-GRSG-84-inf02e.pdf

Damn the bolt holding the filler neck to the body snapped when I changed the fuel tank. I now see it's a vital earth.

PhatBob

28-04-2007, 12:59

As for the cold-starting it's a pretty big issue for me at the moment as I have to adjust the cranking & water-temp settings on the PowerFC to get it to start in the mornings: I am fiddling with them until I get the engine to start first-time (currently on 3rd-time starts) in the morning. It's all good though, it's fine once it's over the 30 degrees mark! :)

JP

Okay...

Your cold start enrichments will obviously be based on the gasoline whats the difference between the ethanol and standard enrichments over 30degC then? Have you applied the same change to the ones below 30deg?

Have you tried increasing the cranking advance and cranking pulsewidths too?

If your getting it to run on the 3rd attempt then you are getting some combustion heat into the chambers.

Its also possible that you may have pushed the enrichments a little too far, does the PowerFC have flood clear if the throttle is over a certain amount? What I often suggest to VEMS customers is that they start with the throttle open enough to activate the flood clear fuel cut, and feather the throttle to get some fuel in. If the engine catches with a little feathering then the cranking pulsewidths are too high and the engine is overfuelled, if it catches with long periods off the throttle then you are too lean.

A lean mix will often cause back firing.

Welcome to the truly difficult part of mapping, full power/WOT runs are easy compared to cold start and transient fueling.

28-04-2007, 13:30

Your cold start enrichments will obviously be based on the gasoline whats the difference between the ethanol and standard enrichments over 30degC then? Have you applied the same change to the ones below 30deg?
They're based on what was achievable at the tuners' overnight so now, they're adjusted to suit E85 but not enough, hence he showed me what to do to get it working. At the moment anything above 30deg is fine, it's the +10deg that are the issue cause that's what the engine's always starting up from.

Have you tried increasing the cranking advance and cranking pulsewidths too?
I've been increasing the cranking advance or pulsewidths or whatever "cranking" on the PFC menu is. Think its the pulsewidths, to 60msec on +10 cause that's what seems to make the thing chug & start to turn over after a the 3 go's. Also, the enrichment's up to 1.79 on both columns but think I need to adjust 1 of them as it seems to want to die as soon as it comes under load. Just so I know, the left-hand column under Water Temp Adjust is the "initial startup/idling" & the right-hand one is "driving" adjust, yeah? If so I need to adjust the "driving" one.

If your getting it to run on the 3rd attempt then you are getting some combustion heat into the chambers.
I don't understand what you mean by this. Forgive me on this one, this is my first time mapping as such & I'm learning as I go along.

Its also possible that you may have pushed the enrichments a little too far, does the PowerFC have flood clear if the throttle is over a certain amount? What I often suggest to VEMS customers is that they start with the throttle open enough to activate the flood clear fuel cut, and feather the throttle to get some fuel in. If the engine catches with a little feathering then the cranking pulsewidths are too high and the engine is overfuelled, if it catches with long periods off the throttle then you are too lean.
Don't know if it has "flood clear". What makes you think I've pushed the enrichments too far? How do you mean "long periods off the throttle"? It only catches with feathering after the 2nd/3rd goes. It seems if I crank it 3-odd times with long intervals it'll start nearly no probs on the 3rd go.

A lean mix will often cause back firing.
Only backfiring is after idling at the lights/low speeds for a while then when I put the foot down & change gear *pop*.

Welcome to the truly difficult part of mapping, full power/WOT runs are easy compared to cold start and transient fueling.
Yeah, I'm certainly learning this now, lol! :sxoc:

JP

ntr

03-05-2007, 21:34

Much more expensive :nod: LPG is AT MOST 49.9p/l The disadvantages iwht LPg are:

1 - the cost of the kit ~£1500 fitted
2 - the weight of the tank (even empty)

With ethanol you just use the normal tank, injectors etc - obviously.

Rich

You gotta be kiddin'!
LPG has no use to performace cars, that's the biggest disadvantage! It's very common in Mainland, especialy Eastern Europe, and all car performance forums are full of topics related to bad things that happen to guys trying use LPG in performace cars.. It's crap. Use it in old familly car, but not in turbocharged performance engine!

PhatBob

03-05-2007, 22:05

Math

03-05-2007, 22:05

didnt someone recently run 400'ish bhp on LPG?

great project JP :)

ShawJohn

03-05-2007, 22:47

This is a very useful thread :nod:

I reckon E85 will become more widespread once politicians accept that we can grow fuel, the trouble is they would have to tax it the same because they can't afford to cut the national income and we are taxed that highly already they surely can't get away with robbing us of more.

This could be what turns the fate of all those struggling farmers :nod:

And farmers producing homebrew fuel is not far away for those brave enough to risk doing it and not declaring it.

Would running one of those fuel sensor thingies not solve all these mapping problems.

I remember a Harrier pilot once telling me that the plane could run on any fuel that was liquid, and burned. So they could pretty much land in any town, anywhere in the mechanised world, and refuel with the local crap if necessary.

My old rover's MEMS ECU was capable of adjusting its map to suit the 'quality of the fuel', is this the same thing?

I am a complete noob when it comes to all things ECU ;) I just watch things on the Datascan software :wack:

monsterer

03-05-2007, 22:53

skyshack

04-05-2007, 02:20

You gotta be kiddin'!
LPG has no use to performace cars, that's the biggest disadvantage! It's very common in Mainland, especialy Eastern Europe, and all car performance forums are full of topics related to bad things that happen to guys trying use LPG in performace cars.. It's crap. Use it in old familly car, but not in turbocharged performance engine!For some reason Propane (HD5) is banned from use in Redline Time Attack (USA).

Propane powers dragsters in classes that allow it quite well.
http://www.alternatefuelsracing.com/

Its often confused with propane, which is an excellent fuel for cars as its: clean, has a high octane rating, a huge AFR operating range (you can actually throttle an engine on propane supply, as you dont start to burn the engine's internals when things go lean).UK LPG is same stuff that's sold as red bottle domestic Propane. It's the same stuff that's delivered by tanker to bulk household heating white "Calor" tanks, they only have one lot of tankers to do both domestic propane for heating/cooking and LPG Autogas. (I developed gas boilers running on red bottled gas for use on that bulk tank stuff so it has to be the same) Only way to get anything better anywhere in the world is to buy chem lab grade 100% pure propane - now that is expensive.

USA has HD5 and HD10, the number is % not propane, there was some debate which should be "Autogas". I believe they went with HD5.

Most of Northern Europe gets 95% propane, further south you go the more Butane it has (though to cater for south of France, the whole of France has low Propane content). Even at 100% Butane you get 100RON.

didnt someone recently run 400'ish bhp on LPG? Richy_Boy

PhatBob

04-05-2007, 07:58

UK LPG is same stuff that's sold as red bottle domestic Propane. It's the same stuff that's delivered by tanker to bulk household heating white "Calor" tanks, they only have one lot of tankers to do both domestic propane for heating/cooking and LPG Autogas. (I developed gas boilers running on red bottled gas for use on that bulk tank stuff so it has to be the same) Only way to get anything better anywhere in the world is to buy chem lab grade 100% pure propane - now that is expensive.

USA has HD5 and HD10, the number is % not propane, there was some debate which should be "Autogas". I believe they went with HD5.

Most of Northern Europe gets 95% propane, further south you go the more Butane it has (though to cater for south of France, the whole of France has low Propane content). Even at 100% Butane you get 100RON.

Interesting, I was lead to believe that the LPG that you get at the pumps (and I guess in the bottles) was always a varying mix in this country, unlike Germany where there is more purity control. The bloke telling me this also mentioned something about filtering, which I couldnt repeat here because I didnt really get the full picture of what he was prattling on about.
Does that ring any bells with you or should I flush that information?

Richy_Boy

04-05-2007, 09:08

Erm, in the UK LPG IS PROPANE is my first comment :nod:

In mainland europe it's mixed with BUTANE, which is not such a good thing for performance cars. I bet most of the people who slap it into their cars don't think about EGTs and timing. I agree, slap LPG (Propane in the UK) into a car and run it hard will cause problems as the timing is not advanced enough to take account of the 110RON so is likely to cause silly EGT's. Advance the timing enough and you take advantage or 110RON - which must be near on race fuel?

Take it from me, my car, although mildly tuned is running LPG, and even with the ignition advance module disabled (for now) it match my 99RON super unleaded power reading of 295bhp on my last rolling road. If you want a graph, I'm happy to provide one :nod:

Oh, and it's not me with 400bhp :rolleyes: not yet anyway :D but I'm teaming up with an LPG tuner to see what we can do with limited resources in a couple of months ;) He has suggested that once we get the advance timing set up right and fine tune the mixture the LPG power results will be more than the Super Unleaded, both bhp and torque :nod: (Bearing in mind, when my LPG map was last done it was FULLY AUTOMATED by the software and not customised at all - so was very rich).

Someone else has though... so I won't hear any more slagging off of lpg :whip: :D

A problem you 'can' get with LPG though is 'manky-goo'. This builds up in the filters and injectors and can cause problems, although in 20k miles I've never seen it and it appears to be a' northern' thing :confused:

Rich

ntr

04-05-2007, 09:48

Not true. LPG (as propane) has the same advantage as E85 - very high octane. So you can run more boost, more advance etc etc...
It is TRUE. High octane does not mean high horsepower!
LPG has a higher octane, but it has lower calories value (? I'm sure if this is correct expression in English - correct me) thus making you use more LPG than petrol of the same octane number.

There are many downsides of running performance engines on LPG (dry shot - most popular). Most commonly addressed is that higher combustion temperatures require "colder spark plugs" and have a destructive effect on valves and combustion chamber itself.

This has a bad effect on turbocharged cars, as exhaust gases are hotter.

Don't get me wrong - it will run, there are a lot o people doing it, but please don't say it's because it's performance wise! People install LPG kits ONLY for economic reasons (quoted 1500GBP is for 4th generation kit, or higher. Basic kit for most current cars is availble at 500EUR, but it has very limited tuning ability and you cannot use it with serious hp engines, as it only reads TPS signals and O2 sensor AFAIK)..

Richy_Boy

04-05-2007, 09:56

ntr

04-05-2007, 11:05

Where do you get your data from ntr? I have yet to find any test results n how LPG will behave on a highly tuned engine... I completely agree, as there is no further evaporation to be had in the cylinders it doesn't help reduce temperatures like Petroleum. It does however suck bucket loads of heat from the water system on full pelt due to the vaporiser, so this may help overall cooling (granted not in the cylinder itself).

I lived in Mainland, in Eastern Europe for last 25years, and LPG applications are very popular because of very high salary/fuel ratio (imagine paying 4GBP per liter, it's this kind of difference). LPG is as you said propan-butan here and everything I found about it was from many Polish car tunners/performance forums on the web. A lot of people want to have decent hp with low running costs. It's ok for cheaper less powerful cars, but those more advanced kits often break after 2-3years and servicing is quite expensive. Most of people I know were very big fans of LPG for 3-5 years when everything worked fine, but then they had problems with everything and best option was to sell the car. Of course this is only their experience. I'm not saying that LPG will kill your engine, but I know people that regret installing it in cars. I myself had LPG installed in my '86 Pontiac Firebird 5,0l 4bb (carbed), but I couldn't tune it better than 35l/100km (6.7204167 miles per gallon) and hp drop was so big that it was almost impossible to do a burnout..

Richy_Boy

04-05-2007, 11:27

Well, I guess things have moved on with injection engines then. My system has a MAP detector, runs on lambda and piggybacks my cars ECUs map (yet shifts it to match the fuel characteristics).

My last rolling road figures were:
Tesco 99RON
Bhp (fly) - 294.5
Torque (ftlb) - 310

LPG
Bhp - 294.5
Torque (ftlb) - 300

...and this was on an automatically generated map after changing to nismo 555's with no timing advance when running on LPG (i.e like running on petrol 4deg+ retarded in theory).

The only person who's been in the car really is Jez (h-dev) and I think he was impressed. But you're are right, in theory LPG has its limitations, yet it allows me to effectively drive a 300bhp car for 300miles for £30 of fuel. :nod: :thumbs:

Rich

monsterer

04-05-2007, 11:42

It is TRUE. High octane does not mean high horsepower!
LPG has a higher octane, but it has lower calories value (? I'm sure if this is correct expression in English - correct me) thus making you use more LPG than petrol of the same octane number.

Yes its true that LPG, like E85, has a lower calorific value than petrol (less powerfull fuel). However, the mere fact that it has such a high RON means you can run a higher compression ratio, more boost and more advance than you would on petrol which leads to higher horsepower.

Cheers, Paul.

04-05-2007, 18:45

didnt someone recently run 400'ish bhp on LPG?

great project JP :)
Thanking you! :) I'm taking it on it's first long-haul trip away from readily available petrol-pumps this weekend to The Rally of the Lakes (http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=284848) in Killarney Co. Kerry.

We'll see if I run dry... :rolleyes: Actually, I'm on my way out now to fill up my jerry-cans with E85 just in case! :thumbs:

This could be what turns the fate of all those struggling farmers :nod:
I have a theory the farmers will make a comeback for this very reason! :)

Would running one of those fuel sensor thingies not solve all these mapping problems.
It would do what the flexifuel vehicles like the Saab 9-5 (Bio-Powered model) & Ford Focus FFV do, in that they have an oxygen sensor in their fuel-tanks that will tell them what the quality of the fuel is in the tank. The map is then adjusted accordingly allowing for a range of quality fuels, like a mixture of E85 & petrol, with the map changing constantly to suit.

Yes its true that LPG, like E85, has a lower calorific value than petrol (less powerfull fuel). However, the mere fact that it has such a high RON means you can run a higher compression ratio, more boost and more advance than you would on petrol which leads to higher horsepower.

Cheers, Paul.
Thanks for bringing it back on-topic Paul! :)

On a separate note, I'll be servicing my car in the very near future (another 1K mls to go) & I'll post up pics of the fuel & oil filters which are supposed to be changed 1K mls after a conversion is done - I just happened to have good timing as to when mine was so my servicing cycle hasn't been disrupted! :thumbs:

JP

09-05-2007, 00:52

Lol! Funny funny weekend! :D To see what exactly happened check out this (http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=284848&page=3) thread from post 48 onward! :thumbs:
To give you an idea of where Killarney is in relation to Cork, look for the little grey arrow...
http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=45397&stc=1&d=1178668183

Now that's about a quarter tank's worth of fuel away & another quarter back! :wack: But man, once we got rid of the slow drivers in front those roads were GREAT fun! :D

Also, make sure before you put a jerry-can into your car that the lid seals properly! :smash: Otherwise it'll smell for about 3 days... smell's gone now though: a good hoovering & dose of leather-cleaner + leather-cream now means she's smelling as good as new again! :smitten:

JP

cHiL

09-05-2007, 17:12

that link only gives you post 48

09-05-2007, 18:58

that link only gives you post 48
Rectified! :thumbs:

16-05-2007, 21:41

Changed the turbo-elbow & actuator there last weekend & in doing so compared my elbow to that of a petrol-powered S13. I was interested to note the differences between them - see them for yourself:

Petrol Elbow:
http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=45585&stc=1&d=1179347679

E85 Elbow (after only 1000 miles)
http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=45586&stc=1&d=1179347679

Side-by-side:
http://www.sxoc.co.uk/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=45565&stc=1&d=1179343562

My lambda sensor came out completely clean! :eek: (All white) & the inside of the elbow as you can see has been "cleaned out" by the E85, I can imagine the spark-plugs are the same but haven't checked yet.

The downpipe on the elbow-side was cleaned out but there were still carbon deposits on the cat-end of it. I'm sure over time they'll be cleaned out. I'd be interested to see what the E85 would do to the cat too actually...

JP

ShawJohn

16-05-2007, 23:02

probably down to the alcohol dissolving the unburned hydrocarbon-carbon deposits ;)

I reckon anyway :p

Wait and see what it is like in a few thousand miles, LPG has a similar affect I believe :nod:

PhatBob

17-05-2007, 08:03

Wait and see what it is like in a few thousand miles, LPG has a similar affect I believe :nod:

You should see the state of the engines in those propane powered forklifts and the oil that comes out of them - spotless.

Richy_Boy

17-05-2007, 08:24

ShawJohn

17-05-2007, 12:52

did you not burn your fingers pulling them whilst red at the end :smash:

18-05-2007, 02:00

Kevs are was doing amazing things during the oil test.. i.e. after 7000 miles the oil was still silkolene purple when sent off for analysis. Mine, however, comes out quite dark - probably due to running a bit rich on LPG.

You should see the state of the engines in those propane powered forklifts and the oil that comes out of them - spotless.
So does this mean the oil is lasting longer than with petrol? If this is true, surely the service-intervals could be extended as we'd get more life out of the oil anyway?

JP

cHiL

18-05-2007, 08:18

Hey jp, are you getting near service time yet? How's it been to drive with the extra power?

PhatBob

18-05-2007, 08:36

So does this mean the oil is lasting longer than with petrol? If this is true, surely the service-intervals could be extended as we'd get more life out of the oil anyway?

JP

You'll get less petrol contamination (85% less ;)), but there will be ethanol contamination instead! And with stuff like LPG, while the oil may not contain soot, it will need changing because the long chain polymers degrade through mechanical action rather than through fuel contamination.

Rob

19-05-2007, 14:58

Hey jp, are you getting near service time yet? How's it been to drive with the extra power?
Service-time is in less than 100mls, it's getting done this coming weekend when I'm swopping over all the old standard parts for some shiny new ones that say "GReddy", "Tomei" & "D-Jetro"! :)

You'll get less petrol contamination (85% less ;)), but there will be ethanol contamination instead! And with stuff like LPG, while the oil may not contain soot, it will need changing because the long chain polymers degrade through mechanical action rather than through fuel contamination.

Rob
Yeah I suppose that's fair enough. Anyone got any idea what ethanol contamination in oil is like?? :wack:

JP

Streetmekanik

03-07-2007, 08:44

Muttly

03-07-2007, 10:28

You said that she would not run on 95, but how about 99 or 100RON if that is availble in Ireland.They're not available, only 95 or bio.

04-07-2007, 01:11

I was wondering if you had given any more consideration to one of those "smelling" sensors in your car (mentioned earlier), to adjust for petrol. You said that she would not run on 95, but how about 99 or 100RON if that is availble in Ireland.
I'm sure if you could fit some sort of a bodge-job on this it would be possible in theory (I think they're 02 sensors) - that'd be just too much hassle for me though & I'd have no clue where to start!

& as Muttly said re: the fuel types. :nod:

Fake Ben Taylor

19-07-2007, 00:36

well we are getting a bio fuel plant in hull next year so hopefully soon itll start to be available up here:nod:

when it is im converting over for the extra powah!:wack:

great thread jp and if it wasnt for you i wouldnt know about this:thumbs:

edit: i believe we are going to get bio-butanol which is lower ron than super unleaded:(:( ah well

PhatBob

19-07-2007, 08:27

Biobutanol has properties closer to petrol than ethanol, its energy density is closer to that of petrol too... So it will be possible to get a car to run on it without too much/any modification, you'll also not get the cold start issues that JP and many others have had. Thats the reason that BP have been working with British Sugar to make commercial production levels.

Its better explained in the BP fact sheet:
http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/globalbp/STAGING/global_assets/downloads/B/Bio_biobutanol_fact_sheet_jun06.pdf

And the wikipedia entry has a good properties table:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biobutanol

Rob

skyshack

19-07-2007, 18:14

Butanol will be crap for turbo engines. Need high AKI = PON = (RON + MON) / 2. Unleaded 95 RON is better. It's sold in UK on RON, USA use PON, engine designers use MON.

Unleaded 95RON 83MON 89AKI
Butanol 96RON 78MON 87AKI
Ethanol 129RON 102MON 115.5AKI (wiki)

You will have to drop boost about 3 psi or CR 1 point from STOCK to use that shit. Conversely Ethanol allows much more boost and/or more compression ratio to be used.

27-07-2007, 01:25

you'll also not get the cold start issues that JP and many others have had.
Just on this issue: I've added an RB25 throttle-body to my setup & now the engine's near-cut-out-juddering on cold start-up! :( On the plus side as soon as it's warmed up even a wee bit it's grand! :)

I'll be working on getting the cold-start & some of the cruising-speed levels worked out this weekend. If I get a chance & anyone would find it interesting I'll post up what kinds of cranking & cold-start correction levels I am using in order for it to run smoothly.

Also, I'd like a petrol-comparison of someone else someone running 325-350bhp's cranking & water-temp corrections from a PowerFC (D-Jetro if possible for closer accuracy! :)) so we can see what the differences are.

I've been told ignition-timings may also be significantly different but don't know enough about this aspect to comment further. I'll learn more over the weekend! ;)

17-08-2007, 00:42

Anyone want to know what the C02, Hydrocarbon levels & engine/oil temp show up as on an NCT (National Car Test - Irish MOT equivalent) results sheet when you've a decat installed?? :D (With Blitz Nur-SpecR exhaust system & 2.5" turbo-back if anyone's interested)

Engine/Oil Temp: 107-degrees C

Low Idle (860rpm)
C02 -> 0.52 vol% (allowed: 0.5%) *
HC -> 0ppm (allowed: 0ppm)

High Idle (2840 rpm)
Lambda: 1.055 (allowed: 097 - 1.03) **
C02 -> 0.21 vol% (allowed: 0.3%)
HC -> 22 ppm (allowed: 200ppm)

* Needs adjusting - have to figure out how to lower this & think it may have been down to the luck of the draw as the guy said something happened at the last second as he dropped the revs so may be a mapping issue.
** Yeah yeah, I'm running rich but that's cause we though they measured it at 3000rpm & adjusted that figure accordingly! :rolleyes: Might need to check exhaust sealant too just in case.

PhatBob

17-08-2007, 09:10

Low Idle (860rpm)
C02 -> 0.52 vol% (allowed: 0.5%) *
HC -> 0ppm (allowed: 0ppm)

High Idle (2840 rpm)
Lambda: 1.055 (allowed: 097 - 1.03) **
C02 -> 0.21 vol% (allowed: 0.3%)
HC -> 22 ppm (allowed: 200ppm)

* Needs adjusting - have to figure out how to lower this & think it may have been down to the luck of the draw as the guy said something happened at the last second as he dropped the revs so may be a mapping issue.
** Yeah yeah, I'm running rich but that's cause we though they measured it at 3000rpm & adjusted that figure accordingly! :rolleyes: Might need to check exhaust sealant too just in case.

Lambda 1.055 is running lean, 0.97 would be rich.

As Stociometric (lambda 1) for Ethanol is 6.5:1, you have an available spread of: 6.3 (0.97lambda) to 6.6(1.03), currently you're up at 6.85.
Thats going to fairly easy to clean up in the map I'd guess.

As for the low speed stuff, what lambda are you at there?

Pablo13

17-08-2007, 09:54

0 HC at idle :eek:

Wow if everyone had a bio conversion there would be no more dirty buildings!

Forgive me, I can remeber that thr R in Ron is for research, but what is Pon and Mon again?

17-08-2007, 17:32

Lambda 1.055 is running lean, 0.97 would be rich.

As Stociometric (lambda 1) for Ethanol is 6.5:1, you have an available spread of: 6.3 (0.97lambda) to 6.6(1.03), currently you're up at 6.85.
Thats going to fairly easy to clean up in the map I'd guess.

As for the low speed stuff, what lambda are you at there?
Ahh ok, lean so, we'll see what I can sort with my lambda sensor plugged back in! ;)

No idea what lambda I'm at on the low idle, they don't give you a reading. What I've got there is what they test you on.

0 HC at idle :eek:

Wow if everyone had a bio conversion there would be no more dirty buildings!

Forgive me, I can remeber that thr R in Ron is for research, but what is Pon and Mon again?
I think it's expected to be that for all vehicles though..? :confused: I was being tested as if I had petrol in the tank even though they know it was E85, mine's the first car in Ireland to be NCT'd with E85 so they said they'd just test me as if I was running petrol.

No clue about the MON & PON though, sorry man! :(

sean737

18-08-2007, 15:29

P stands for pump, can't remember M

PhatBob

18-08-2007, 15:44

If you've not read this:
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/

You should.

06-09-2007, 02:20

Passed the NCT (Ireland's equivalent of the MOT) with a decat pipe while running E85!!! :D

Have to say a HUGE thank you to Stiv - the man's has designed my map to be within the ultra-strict tolerences of the NCT & had the massive amounts of patience necessary to help me to get it to the point where the map was perfect for the test! :notworthy Honestly dude, I can't thank you enough! :)

Results & tolerances:

Engine oil/temp - 93 degrees Celcius

Low Idle (920 rpm)
CO - 0.39 vol% (above 0.5% fail)
HC - 0 ppm (above 0 ppm fail)

High Idle (3030 rpm) (Checked between 2500 & 3500 rpm range)
Lambda - 0.992 (between 0.97 & 1.03)
CO - 0.17 vol% (above 0.3 vol% fail)
HC - 27 ppm (above 200 ppm fail)

The funny part was that with the Lambda Feedback Sensor turned on (also called "Narrowband Sensor" or "02 Sensor") the C0's at high idle went up to 0.8 vol% but as soon as I turned that off it dropped back to within acceptable limits! Now THAT'S good mapping for you! :thumbs:

Now we know how the fuel reacts to the hot & cold starts so it's pretty much perfect in both those respects too! :nod: Onward goes the proper (tried & tested!) mapping of future cars with E85! :sxoc:

21-12-2007, 11:45

A lot of people are asking about fuel-consumption with this fuel so here are my stats from real-life of running a 325bhp car & 438Nm of torque:

Top to drain, mostly-sensible motorway driving from a full tank:
270 miles

Top to drain, not being very sensible & urban-only driving from a full tank:
180 miles

Averaging at about 230 miles to the tank at the moment & the current E85 prices are at 94.5c p/L (Sandymount Strand Maxol) or as high as 97.9c per/L (Sallynoggin Road Maxol) which works out at about €52 per tank usually.

Evilchap

21-12-2007, 14:13

Full tank of fuel, £38 :( Mine is currently at £64 with Tesco 99 stuff, which is near €90.

Are you using the original fuel tank?

PhatBob

21-12-2007, 14:18

Full tank of fuel, £38 :( Mine is currently at £64 with Tesco 99 stuff, which is near €90.

Are you using the original fuel tank?

Now we need to compare how many miles you get per tank compared to jp's figures.

21-12-2007, 18:29

Are you using the original fuel tank?
Yup! :) What's is it actually, 55/60L?

Now we need to compare how many miles you get per tank compared to jp's figures.
Yeah, that'd be great actually! What does anyone running roughly the same amount of power as me get to a tank mileage-wise? I'll edit the post above with the "normal" amount of mileage as an example if someone can give me it. :nod:

01-01-2008, 19:30

Yup! :) What's is it actually, 55/60L?
Discovered it's more than 62L anyway so I'm guessing it's a 65L tank.

Easy007

02-01-2008, 22:02

and why have i not been told about this thread ?!?

I'm all for (i'm not going to say 'saving the planet' as it's cliche and all cars are inherently bad for the environment) being carbon neutral etc* and I'm really interested in your long term usage data and problems.

* I used to work for the forestry commision and have planted enough trees in my lifetime to offset myself for a good few years.

03-01-2008, 00:58

Lol! I'd like to do a bit of that at some stage cause there's a secret eco-geek inside me, or at the very least I like to get the most out of things (efficiency) while using the least to do it (minimising costs/resources) to get it done! :thumbs:

I figure it's a great fuel: better for the environment, reduces imports (better for domestic fuels), keeps the engine cleaner, allows me to run more power, and the big winner is that it costs less than petrol (in Ireland anyway)! :thumbs:

How'd you spot the thread in the first place?

Easy007

03-01-2008, 18:34

I was just having a surf round and spotted it :)

It does sound like a good fuel but i still wouldn't say it was "better for the environment" it's just not as bad, problem being it doesn't seem to be readily available yet. It looks like Morrisons is pushing it over here like Maxol over there but there only a handfull off locations and none are even remotely near me, looks like it's just research for me at the mo.

I have considered the idea of trying to sort out some form off carbon offset/tree planting scheme for the SXOC but haven't got round to it yet........

03-01-2008, 19:43

"Better" & "not as bad" - Tomato tomato.

Lol! Wonder how well it'd be received..? :)

PhatBob

04-01-2008, 10:48

Now the ambient temps have dropped a few degrees, whats the cold start like on a cold and frosty morning?

04-01-2008, 11:48

Not great, takes 4 cranks where it normally took 3! :( I can live with that though. :) I'm convinced that the cold-start issue isn't just with the fuel or map though, I think a dodgy fuel pressure regulator is to blame & am replacing it on Tuesday so hopefulyl will be able to give more feedback at that stage! :thumbs:

didier_gg

06-01-2008, 18:00

JP,

I'm doing to experiment the same on my S13, 200000 kms on the clock, then no real danger.
I would not do on my Z32 for the moment, freshly rebuilt engine ...

But I need some tricks to do it in the best way.
I can run up to 8 ECU maps in my car, then I can switch from one to another while the engine is running with no problem. I'm based on the OEM ECU, but I can change everything inside, fuel, timing, cold start enrichment ....
My timing is pretty advanced for SP95 at the moment.

As E85 contains more water in suspension, I heard the tank should be plastified, any comment about that ?
I'm sure all the fuel hoses are nitrile inside and rubber outside, then no problem.
In-tank fuel hose (as the one on top of my walbro) is a special one, Gates SAE 30R10 rated, cannot be a problem I think.
My fuel rail is middle steel, with anti-rust treatment, but again E85 may contain more water in suspension than the SP95, any remark about that ?

My injectors are 440cc running up to 85%, I want to try with these but will upgrade to 550cc if first attempts work.

In a first step, I will empty my tank and fill in with E85.
Concerning ECU, can I simply start with multiplying K with a value to compensate the 20-30% to inject more ? Am I obliged to immediatly increase the timing advance all over the map ?
I will enrich by 30% the cold start table.

Do you run a wideband O2 sensor everyday in your car ? Did you check you run 9.76 (stoich value) while cruising ? What are the leanest while cruising and the richest values @ full boost you got ?

Did you encounter some troubles when the winter arrived ?

Loose Hand Luke

06-01-2008, 18:44

I can run up to 8 ECU maps in my car, then I can switch from one to another while the engine is running with no problem. I'm based on the OEM ECU, but I can change everything inside, fuel, timing, cold start enrichment ....

8 maps on the OEM ecu??? How did you manage that? Piggyback unit?
Sounds interesting!
:notworthy

07-01-2008, 02:48

JP,

I'm doing to experiment the same on my S13, 200000 kms on the clock, then no real danger.
Well man, first off congrats cause you'll be the second SX ever to do the conversion & the first S13 at that! :clap:

Secondly, what you read on here & any advice I give you, I give you as a non-mechanicaly qualified person (I'm not a physicist either!) so if your car blows up or whatever, don't blame me! :wack:

So on to the questions! ;)

As E85 contains more water in suspension, I heard the tank should be plastified, any comment about that ?
I believe the tank should ideally be made of plastic as E85 is more conductive of electricity (there were fears of sparking in the tank, creating currents from the flowing of the fuel etc as you'll read from my thread) but I don't know any reason off the top of my head why a metal tank wouldn't work aside from perhaps corrosion over time if water/impurities got into the tank.

I'm sure all the fuel hoses are nitrile inside and rubber outside, then no problem.
In-tank fuel hose (as the one on top of my walbro) is a special one, Gates SAE 30R10 rated, cannot be a problem I think.
My fuel rail is middle steel, with anti-rust treatment, but again E85 may contain more water in suspension than the SP95, any remark about that ?

My injectors are 440cc running up to 85%, I want to try with these but will upgrade to 550cc if first attempts work.
Your injectors (if already at 85%) will need to be upgraded or you'll need to lower your boost level, I can pretty much tell you that straight off as E85 needs a lot more fuel to be pumped in per amount of air which will max out your injectors.

In a first step, I will empty my tank and fill in with E85.
Concerning ECU, can I simply start with multiplying K with a value to compensate the 20-30% to inject more ? Am I obliged to immediatly increase the timing advance all over the map ?
I will enrich by 30% the cold start table.
Well the first step that was done on my car was to map it perfectly to run 95. Then from there, the tank was emptied & E85 was put in. Then from there, I'm guessing (as I didn't map the car myself) that the extra fuel was added to stop the engine running lean. Then the ignition timing was advanced to allow for the extra octane rating of E85 to be used effectively & the fuelling again adjusted to suit.

What's "K"? :confused:

Do you run a wideband O2 sensor everyday in your car ? Did you check you run 9.76 (stoich value) while cruising ? What are the leanest while cruising and the richest values @ full boost you got?
I don't run a narrowband or wideband sensor at all but it was necessary for when the car was mapped & Stiv used a wideband while we were making adjustments to my map for better fuel economy later on.

I don't know off the top of my head what the leanest & richest values were & what do you mean 9.76 as the stoich value?

Did you encounter some troubles when the winter arrived ?
Read the post above yours! ;)

Hope that all helps man - if anyone else knows a wee bit more than me about any area please post up especially for the technical bits I'm not too sure about. :)

didier_gg

07-01-2008, 13:25

Concerning the 8 maps stuff, I don't want to pollute this post, but just to be short: it's very simple. It uses a larger EPROM as 27C1001 or 27C2001 and a rotary knob mechanism to change the upper addresses thanks to a CMOS 4532 chip.
I just made a small extension box to the OEM ECU with a ZIF socket for the EPROM and I can remove the EPROM without removing the ECU or the plastic cover (ECU is located near the right foot of the passenger on the S13). The rotary knob with some leds to confirm the program number selected is located just behind or below the ashtray. By this way, I can change the program while driving.

JP,

K is a very well-known constant, a multiplier (known by every Nissan tuner) and used accross many Nissan ECU. It eases the injectors mod or AFM swap on many Nissan engines.

When I speak about stoechiometric value, I speak about Air Fuel Ratio value (AFR).
AFR=14.7 is the optimal value for gasoline (to work correctly with catalytic converter). 14.7 is reached on light load, typically when cruising.
AFR=9.76 is the optimal value for ethanol.

Could you get some inputs from your tuner about the mapping performed on the PowerFC ?
A fuel map and a timing map would be good ... 16*16 values tables
I would like to appreciate how the values evolve accross the table in function of RPM and load (called TP).

Did he map your engine by trying to find the same AFRs you had when running SP95 ? In this case, it would mean he based all its settings on 14.7 an didn't change the wideband sensor parameters.
I usually use the LC1 kit from Innovate Motorsports for WBO2. Their kit allows to specify the usage: gasoline, ethanol, other ...

Did you solve your potential problem with your fuel pressure regulator ?
Could you give more details about your difficulties to start the engine ? Which outside temp ? Is the engine warm-up always fine now ?

PhatBob

07-01-2008, 14:14

Using Lambda rather than AFR means that you are fuel neutral, lambda 1.0 is Stoichometric regardless of fuel type. AFR is a calculated value derived from the Lambda value provided by the sensor.

Rob

didier_gg

07-01-2008, 14:25

You're right, I'm just so familiar with AFRs ... 16 to 17 while cruising, 11.5 @full boost ... for gasoline.
I found some interesting info on the forum of Innovate Motorsports if you look for "ethanol" or E85:
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/forums/search.php?searchid=310490

Some guys speak about 0.82 for lambda @full boost. (Bio)ethanol seems to allow some slightly higher AFRs @full boost, probably because (Bio)ethanol is less prone to detonate if you keep the same timing values than gasoline.
I will go deeply in the posts tonight.

Ghazoobe

07-01-2008, 15:35

Sorry if I get this wrong as I'm useless when it comes to technical stuff (my eyes hurt from reading the whole thread from start to finish lol)

but...

to put it simply, I have an emanage blue and 444cc injectors which I haven't fitted yet, but once I fit these I wouldn't need any other mods to run on bioethanol?
(already have a walbro fitted)

PhatBob

07-01-2008, 15:38

Sorry if I get this wrong as I'm useless when it comes to technical stuff but...

to put it simply, I have an emanage blue and 444cc injectors which I haven't fitted yet, but once I fit these I wouldn't need any other mods to run on bioethanol?
(already have a walbro fitted)

You might want slightly larger injectors than that, but essentially you're on the money there. E85 doesnt take much to convert, E100 is a slightly different matter because of the water absorption/content that didier_gg mentioned.

Ghazoobe

07-01-2008, 15:43

You might want slightly larger injectors than that, but essentially you're on the money there. E85 doesnt take much to convert, E100 is a slightly different matter because of the water absorption/content that didier_gg mentioned.

I'm still running on the standard turbo and internals so was only aiming for around 300bhp so should just about be able to squeeze it out of the injectors (they are ok'ish for 330bhp on petrol)

hmmmm very tempting, just need to find out if theres anywhere nearby that I could fill up with E85 :)

edit:
(just searched and can only find 1 place in S.E. England and its way too far away :()

ColinR

07-01-2008, 16:03

I would love to try this and switch over....

But my nearest station is 30 Miles away, meaning a 60mile round trip to fill up!

Is there any sort of tax break for using E85?

Is your road tax still the same?

Col

07-01-2008, 21:23

K is a very well-known constant, a multiplier (known by every Nissan tuner) and used accross many Nissan ECU. It eases the injectors mod or AFM swap on many Nissan engines.
Cheers for the info man - I'll read up a bit more on that when I start to look at mapping more myself! :thumbs:

When I speak about stoechiometric value, I speak about Air Fuel Ratio value (AFR).
AFR=14.7 is the optimal value for gasoline (to work correctly with catalytic converter). 14.7 is reached on light load, typically when cruising.
AFR=9.76 is the optimal value for ethanol.
I believe my AFR for E85 (based on the lambda of 1 we were getting while idling & crusing) was 14.5-14.7 or thereabouts.

Could you get some inputs from your tuner about the mapping performed on the PowerFC ?
A fuel map and a timing map would be good ... 16*16 values tables
I would like to appreciate how the values evolve accross the table in function of RPM and load (called TP).
Do you have the Datalogit software? Shouldn't be a problem getting you the maps if you do.

Did he map your engine by trying to find the same AFRs you had when running SP95 ? In this case, it would mean he based all its settings on 14.7 an didn't change the wideband sensor parameters.
I usually use the LC1 kit from Innovate Motorsports for WBO2. Their kit allows to specify the usage: gasoline, ethanol, other ...
Wouldn't imagine so from looking at the map when we were doing some adjustments the last time but it was a wee bit rich across the range to keep things safe! :thumbs:

Did you solve your potential problem with your fuel pressure regulator ?
Could you give more details about your difficulties to start the engine ? Which outside temp ? Is the engine warm-up always fine now ?
Tuesday (tomorrow) is fitting day for the FPR so I'll know by Thursday at the latest (after a proper cold-start) if it worked or not.

What kind of information do you want regarding the starting of the engine?

It cranks (about 3 times), fires up, dies within 3 seconds. Cranks a little longer, (4/5 turns maybe) turns on, then sometimes chugs to a death after 4/5 seconds. 3rd cranks is 3 turns & it fires up & doesn't go out. If you try to put any extra load or air in it doesn't start at all on the 2nd crank or dies as soon as you touch it.

Intake temps are usually 10-16 degrees when doing this by the way. Once it reaches 30 degrees the fuelling usually sorts itself out but unless you're careful with the load it'll try & cut out prior to that.

Warm-start is just something I've gotten used-to, it's a procedure & I'm used to it now. The reason for the awkwardness with the E85 & cold-starting is that the fuel needs to be slightly warm (as does most higher octane fuel like race-fuel apparently) before it'll ignite properly, hence the cylinders/engine need to warm up a bit with the 1st 2 cranks before it'll combust properly enough to run the car without cutting out. Made sense to me at the time anyway! :)

Is there any sort of tax break for using E85?

Is your road tax still the same?
Don't know about the UK mate but there are tax breaks when buying flexifuel cars in Ireland, 50% off the crippling vehicle registration tax & E85 has a very small amount of duty on it compared to diesel or petrol at the moment because it's produced locally & is a "green" fuel.

In Ireland the tax is yeah - there's debate going on still as there's new road taxz laws based on emissions coming into Ireland in July so don't know yet where bioethanol-fuelled cars (aftermarket as opposed to factory-fitted) sit.

stiv

07-01-2008, 23:07

Cheers for the info man - I'll read up a bit more on that when I start to look at mapping more myself! :thumbs:

I believe my AFR for E85 (based on the lambda of 1 we were getting while idling & crusing) was 12.0 or thereabouts.

it's running 14.5-14.7 crusing and 12 down to 11.8 on full power when the lm1 is still set for gas,

johnnyhillen

08-01-2008, 04:54

i'd love to do this as well, i've emailed maxol to findout there intentions for selling e85 up north but got no reply and i don't thing an where else does it, we don't get morrisons over here, i thing jp's local station in Dublin is my closest location atm

from what i have read here, the recommended safe limit on internals is approx 360bhp, will this go up if i converted to e85 due to it being a higher ron and therefore more able to resist det

PhatBob

08-01-2008, 08:17

it's running 14.5-14.7 crusing and 12 down to 11.8 on full power when the lm1 is still set for gas,

So thats 14.5 to 14.7 / 14.7 = 0.99 to 1.0 lambda cruising. And 0.82 to 0.80 on Full boost.
Converting that to the E85 AFR ( L x 9.76 )
Cruising: 9.66 to 9.76
Full boost: 8.00 to 7.81

And thats why sticking to lamda is the best option - 1.0 is stoichiometric, and peak torque comes around 0.85 to 0.82 regardless of fuel.

didier_gg

08-01-2008, 09:04

JP,

I don't like your cranking troubles. It seems you don't inject enough.
The OEM ECU injects on the four injectors at the same time when cranking to help the fire-up, and then later, cycles them according to a 4-cyl engine.
The fact the engine dies or never starts when you depress the throttle pedal is a sign, too much air.
Are you sure the PowerFC injects on the 4 inj. when cranking ?

Post after post, I'm more and more confident, I'll tune the E85 as I tune the gasoline, but I'll go down to 11.5 for AFR. I prefer to keep the gasoline AFR figures, just an habit.

We have enough E85 pumps here, 4 in my town, 1 in the town I go every WE. 95% of the french country is covered.

I could increase the fuel pressure from 2.5 to 3.5 bars temporarily to balance the fact I have 444cc only and answer to the fuel increase demand.

09-01-2008, 12:26

i thing jp's local station in Dublin is my closest location atm
Your nearest station is Drogheda or Dundalk I think, check out www.maxol.ie & click on the E85 part to see the station locator. My local is the south-side of Dublin! :wack:

from what i have read here, the recommended safe limit on internals is approx 360bhp, will this go up if i converted to e85 due to it being a higher ron and therefore more able to resist det
To be honest, I'm not overly au-fait with what fails on the internals over the normal power threshold so you might want to start a new thread on that or do a search preferably as it's probably already covered somewhere.

I don't like your cranking troubles. It seems you don't inject enough.
The OEM ECU injects on the four injectors at the same time when cranking to help the fire-up, and then later, cycles them according to a 4-cyl engine.
The fact the engine dies or never starts when you depress the throttle pedal is a sign, too much air.
Are you sure the PowerFC injects on the 4 inj. when cranking ?
I'll have a look at the cranking again - maybe richen the mixture up a bit, thaks for the tip! :thumbs: Don't want to flood it on the other hand as well because I think I came close to doing that before! :smash: The other thing it could be is nort so much the cranking but the cold-start correction mightn't be high enough. Now is a good time of year to get it right though because it's very cold over here at the moment!!

I can't see why it wouldn't inject on all 4 injectors while cranking? :confused:

Post after post, I'm more and more confident, I'll tune the E85 as I tune the gasoline, but I'll go down to 11.5 for AFR. I prefer to keep the gasoline AFR figures, just an habit.
You'll be running rich in that case & bare in mind E85 doesn't last as long as petrol, I'd suggest getting the most mileage out of a tank as possible! :nod: Just a suggestion! ;)

We have enough E85 pumps here, 4 in my town, 1 in the town I go every WE. 95% of the french country is covered.
Yay! :clap: That means I can take my SX touring around France!!! :sxoc:

On that note, would you mind posting up on this thread (http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=306915) some locations or a useful site where we can see where there are a list/map of all the E85 pump locations? :)

I could increase the fuel pressure from 2.5 to 3.5 bars temporarily to balance the fact I have 444cc only and answer to the fuel increase demand.
As long as you have some way of monitoring what your injector duty cycle is & lambda then you should be able to make sure you don't run lean. Not sure how much extra fuel you'll get from them though with the extra 1bar of pressure.

didier_gg

20-05-2008, 00:01

JP,

Could you update this post ?
What are the news with summer coming ?
Are you still running E85 ? Any trouble ?

I haven't go through it yet, I'm just changing for new all the fuel parts, fuel dampener, FPR, fuel pump, carbon canister, just to have all the chances on my side.
I attempt to try it on my 300zx (yes !), with a dry tank and tuning it in my garage first.

20-05-2008, 00:51

Hi Didier, what do you want to know?

I've been through 1 summer already running E85 (last summer) without much bother all things considered. :)

What's a fuel dampener?

Streetmekanik

20-05-2008, 10:53

I've been through 1 summer already running E85 (last summer) without much bother all things considered. :)

How low temerature have you started the car. Ethanol car are suppose to be harder to start. Any starting problems?

What are the ethanol prices in your nick of the woods? Do you observe any changes, like we do with petrol?

Thanks :thumbs:

20-05-2008, 12:24

I've started it at around 10 degrees but that just needed an additional cranking before it started - only the usual 2/3 cranks were needed. I've to figure out if there's a way to heat the fuel before shooting it into the cylinders or what method Saab/Ford use for their cars so that I'm not overusing the starter-motor! :smash:

E85 is retailing at 99.9c/L today and no, they don't change in-line with petrol at all. The prices stay fixed where petrol can shoot up/down by 5-10c in the same period before a change! :)

31-05-2008, 23:07

Folks, as an additional update to this post, some bad luck befell me in March, hence I've not updated this in a long time (see this thread (http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/showthread.php?p=4029741) regarding my E85'd S14a & my new S14a), but as of tomorrow/Monday I should be back running E85 using the same engine again! :thumbs: I won't say much on the open forum but the thread should speak for itself. :(

As of Monday I hope to continue recording & showing any more findings I have too.

As an update, I know of an S15 in Ireland running E85 successfully and another S15 from a different county is awaiting parts & a mapping session! :thumbs: I'll post up if I have any feedback from them also.

croustibat

01-06-2008, 03:14

Hi guys, i am another french techie converting his S13 to e85 :D

I calculated that i was going to need 660cc injectors to keep enough fuel coming at 7200rpm@1bar, while keeping injectors duty cycle "low" (90% !! ) Now i know my setup won't be putting 1bar@7200rpm now, but still, i am taking some margin for later. Using standard setup, with boost getting to 0.8 at max rpms, you would still need 580cc injectors @95% duty cycle, so forget about 440 or 550.

I did also test drive with stock injectors and 50% e85... was a really bad idea, quickly topped the tank with normal fuel.

Also i will be doing the "4maps on a chip mod", which is easier than the 8 one. Just strap a 27c512 instead of the 27c128 on your ECU, isolate pins A14 and A15 from the socket and put switches on them. That's it, nothing more to do, just a little bit of soldering :D You will only be allowed to switch with power off, but again you DO power off when filling your gas tank, so thats not a problem.

I also wanted to point out a BIG mistake to people trying to compensate small injectors with more pressure in the fuel rail : if you want +33% fuel with the same injector timings, you need to raise pressure of +66% (yes, it is a square formula, not a linear one).

Meaning you would have to use 5bar pressure instead of 3. It is wayyyyyy too much and your injectors will die quickly, along with your fuel rail and your pressure regulator (remember it is a relative value, it means you would have 6bars when on 1bar boost). Get yourself bigger injectors and a walbro pump (you should already have one btw) it is the only way.

01-06-2008, 08:23

Muttly

01-06-2008, 09:19

Don't forget there is also a PS13 drift car running a stroked (HKS 2.2) high (10:1) compression engine and E85.

croustibat

01-06-2008, 12:15

Good to hear Croustibat! :thumbs: I've it in my mind to make a list of people running E85 on the first post in this thread (and the date they converted) & add to it as times goes on just for interest's sake. :)

Just out of curiosity, why are you converting over?

Many reasons in fact.

1/ high octane fuel. More boost, better ignition, better running motor. Remember how jeremy clarkson is saying POWWWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRR ? That's it :D
2/ 98 octane fuel is around 1.60€/L here, and e85 is from 0.80 to 0.95€/L . Considering fuel usage getting worse, it would still be sparing 0.40 to 0.50€/L.
3/ found CHEAP injectors. 205€ delivered. brand new, never used. It will take between 5000-10000km of driving to pay for them.
4/ I can use it as an excuse to later build a high revving head with solid lifters :o
5/ because i am good with electronics. I am integrating softwares onto plane calculators, so a car's calculator is nothing, really :D

6/ finally, because i can.

Irishpaddy

02-06-2008, 00:42

Also i will be doing the "4maps on a chip mod", which is easier than the 8 one. Just strap a 27c512 instead of the 27c128 on your ECU, isolate pins A14 and A15 from the socket and put switches on them. That's it, nothing more to do, just a little bit of soldering :D You will only be allowed to switch with power off, but again you DO power off when filling your gas tank, so thats not a problem.

.

is this on a standard ecu? tell us more about this...

07-06-2008, 11:43

Don't forget there is also a PS13 drift car running a stroked (HKS 2.2) high (10:1) compression engine and E85.
In that case I think I'll just stick to the people that are on here - make things simpler! :)

07-06-2008, 11:57

With my now manual 14a running with the auto differential, the rpm figures for cruising speeds are as follows:

2750rpm @ 120kph (auto: 2500)
2250rpm @ 100kph (auto: 2000)

I made 362 miles to the tank of E85!! :eek: (with mixed driving running 0.8bar of boost) I'd say 380 miles is easily possible. My previous mpg figures were 280 miles to the tank so I think that's pretty good going to get an extra 100 miles out of the tank! Niiiiiice! ;)

Current E85 prices: (Petrolheads people look away)
Louth (Dundalk): 96.9c/L
Limerick: 97.9c/L
Dublin (Sallynoggin): 99.9c/L

:D

I'm thinking that with the manual differential (being a longer final drive) and some more fine-tuning of the map I can get possibly 400+ miles to the tank which is better than the auto box running on petrol @ 130.9c/L getting 350miles at most with the same driving! :whip:

Overall I'm very happy with her performance & it means I can travel greater distances across Ireland without having to worry about refuelling. That last tank of 362 miles lasted me from Dundalk to Kerry & back to Limerick to fill up with some diversions along the way just to give a local example.

croustibat

18-06-2008, 07:44

is this on a standard ecu? tell us more about this...

Well, this is all there is to it, really :d

The standard EPROM is a 27c128, maps are stored in area 0 to 3FFF.

a 27c512 is 4 times bigger and thus has 2 more address bit. So you isolate these pins from the ECU, and control them using switches .

If switches are off, when the ECU asks for something in 0 to 3FFF area, it will get datas from here.

if first switch is on and second off, it will get data from 4000 to 7FFF, basically where you program your second map.

If the second switch is on and first is off, it will get data from 8000 to BFFF, which is the area where you program your 3rd set of maps.

Then, if both switches are on, it will get data from C000 to FFFF. 4th set of maps.

I will post some pics of it when it is soldered. Cost is ridiculously low (parts cost around 10£ )

JP > can you send me your ECU maps for e85 and standard fuel ? I want to know the general things you modify between the 2. I know you can add loads of ignition and have to run richer, but i would like to see if there is some kind of "mathematical rule" for it . It could spare me a lot of time, which will be good as i will be using someone else's wideband and nistune (well, i hope to ).

thanks ;)

18-06-2008, 18:32

JP > can you send me your ECU maps for e85 and standard fuel ? I want to know the general things you modify between the 2. I know you can add loads of ignition and have to run richer, but i would like to see if there is some kind of "mathematical rule" for it . It could spare me a lot of time, which will be good as i will be using someone else's wideband and nistune (well, i hope to ).
What format do you want them in? I'll have to get a copy from someone else's laptop cause I don't have them on mine.

croustibat

18-06-2008, 19:19

Errr... nice you asked ! I don't know. They are SR20det maps, and i guess romeditor wont read them. And i cant find any viewing software for sr20det maps . If you have one then the problem is solved, i will have it in the format working with the software you can provide (or just the name of the software) :wack:

thanks mate :sxoc:

Grim

18-06-2008, 19:42

Its often confused with propane, which is an excellent fuel for cars as its: clean, has a high octane rating, a huge AFR operating range (you can actually throttle an engine on propane supply, as you dont start to burn the engine's internals when things go lean).

It works well in oil burners, really cleans the burn up. In the 'states they have "gas assist kits" and its equated to nitrous for diesels.

The other thing about LPG is if we're going to head down to the old Environmental route, forget it... Its not from a source with short carbon so its not a "Green" fuel.

Rob

interesting and confusing thread.

lpg cars don't have to pay congestion charge as it's a green fuel. and if ken the car hater set that up, it must be true:D

lpg not suitable for turbo cars? what about SM's and several others on the board?

if e85 is 10-20% less to buy, but you need up to 40% more of it, what's the point? especially if you add the fact that only three stations sell it? i get the point you dont need a seperate fuel system, like lpg, and it's 'green' but when you think of the poor little Ongobongo people who can't grow crops because you're using their fields to drive your car, it's not green either.

with the way we're all getting butt fooked on petrol, i am all in favour of projects like this, but i may have missd the point:wack:

Muttly

18-06-2008, 19:56

interesting and confusing thread.

lpg cars don't have to pay congestion charge as it's a green fuel. and if ken the car hater set that up, it must be true:D

lpg not suitable for turbo cars? what about SM's and several others on the board?

if e85 is 10-20% less to buy, but you need up to 40% more of it, what's the point? especially if you add the fact that only three stations sell it? i get the point you dont need a seperate fuel system, like lpg, and it's 'green' but when you think of the poor little Ongobongo people who can't grow crops because you're using their fields to drive your car, it's not green either.

with the way we're all getting butt fooked on petrol, i am all in favour of projects like this, but i may have missd the point:wack:You have missed it a bit. E85 is made and sold only in Ireland. Its made from a milk by product.

Yes it does use more when at full whack but around the same when driven normally.

Take JP's car and mine. Similar power. And when driven properly we get similar fuel mileage. Therefore I'm paying 130c/l and he's paying 95c/l he's doing a lot better. Plus for an identical setup he could make more power.

lpg is good but its not available here so its no good to us. e85 on the other hand is going to be available in a lot more places in time so will be a benefit.

Also its available in about 25 stations, not 3.

Grim

18-06-2008, 20:32

well if we have to drive to ireland to fill up, it's definately a non starter. lol

milk by product - what, like cow farts?

19-06-2008, 01:42

didier_gg

24-06-2008, 16:00

JP & Croustibat (french !)

Sorry, I missed your posts, I had forgotten to update my email address.

JP, I didn't understand through your post your troubles in last March !?

Some news on my side. I did long trips with my 300zx 100% E85 powered.
>2000kms done.
In summary, I'm obliged to inject +35% more. But here, E85 is below to 0.79euros in some locations. Usually 0.83-0.85euros.
13.35L/100kms on highways, fine, because I got 10L with SP95 before. I got 440kms with a 70L tank, without going to the reserve, then
some E85 left.
Light cruise was with AFR=16.5-17 and it can go up to 18 in my case without affecting the driveability.
Oil temp was less high also. Absolutely no cranking trouble on cold start also.
In mixed driving, not enough time, not sure, but I have a good feeling.

2 things:
I have adjustable FPR. You gain not so much from it, I'm at @3.55bar @idle and cannot go further. My 300zx 240LPH pump has a built-in fuel dampener/damper which opens @5.2bar and at WOT, this value is reached ! I plan to remove it, it's not urgent.
I have full control on my ECU, I embed 8 maps at the same time. then I can compensate from 0 to 35% depending on the amount of E85 versus SP95 if required (required in some countries without E85 pumps ! agrhhhh !).
With 3.55bar of fuel pressure, K is increased of about 20%.
You need to adjust K, TP scales, water temp cold enrichment tables, TTPMIN, TTPMAX, TP limit and that's ok.
My timing was already pretty advanced then that's fine. I put +1° at WOT for the moment
I enrichen the idle, mid load is fine (and WOT states with AFR 11.5-12 for 10 psi of boost. It really boost fine despite of my stock 370cc injectors, they are closed to be maxed out but I did a try @15psi, and it was a bit too rich, about AFR 11 ! Then it means I can reach 16-17psi as for the unleaded 95.
At the moment, the car push is better @10psi than @15psi.

This E85 is incredible, it really resists to detonation (I were at the limit with unleaded 95, at the best power point).

I'm also interested in your maps just for curiosity and to share, because I run on OEM ECU.

25-07-2008, 19:31

Just an update on this:

With my 200SX, upped a bit power-wise (not sure exactly how much yet) rarely going over 3k rpm, motorway & back-road mileage and a small bit of city driving, I got 367miles to a tank of E85 (62L x 97.9c/L!) :D That works out at about 5.91 miles to the litre = 16.56c/mile on 104RON. When it was an auto, standard and pushing a lot less power on similar roads I got 360mls to the tank of 95 (62L x 133.9c/L) which works out at 5.81 miles to the litre = 23.04c/mile.

Petrol Auto (Standard ECU) VS E85 Manual (Tuned)

360mls VS 367mls
133.9c/L VS 97.9c/L
5.81mls/L VS 5.91mls/L
23.04c/mile VS 16.56c/mile

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=55971&stc=1&d=1217010402

PhatBob

25-07-2008, 19:46

Good work mate, its nice to see some real data.

12-08-2008, 03:50

I have a theory I may have a leaking injector & possibly a fecked Walbro (due to age) so I've got a new pump on the way. :thumbs:

In the mean-time here's 2 figures that I wasn't even trying for but on mostly 100km/h mileage (Dublin to South Donegal, driving between 2 towns & back to Dublin) here's what I managed:

200 miles to half a tank:
http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=56404&stc=1&d=1218509359

361 miles before I filled up & the reserve hadn't even come on - think I'd make 400?? :D
http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=56405&stc=1&d=1218509359

didier_gg

12-08-2008, 08:28

If you just put a gauge after the fuel filter, you'll be able to see if the fuel pressure drops too quickly after having switched off the ignition.
On my 300, when the engine is hot, the pressure drops quicker. Engine cold, it takes more than 6 hours to have full pressure drop.

My 200 and my 300 are running E85 now. I got better mileage with E85 on my 200 than before (despite of injecting +35%).

12-08-2008, 12:40

If you just put a gauge after the fuel filter, you'll be able to see if the fuel pressure drops too quickly after having switched off the ignition.
On my 300, when the engine is hot, the pressure drops quicker. Engine cold, it takes more than 6 hours to have full pressure drop.
I'd put in a guage only I don't have one I can put into the car while I'm driving along - at idle it makes 3bar no bother.

My 200 and my 300 are running E85 now. I got better mileage with E85 on my 200 than before (despite of injecting +35%).
E85 FTW!!! :clap: :D

Gymbob

12-08-2008, 12:45

Hold on lmao you said its around 20% cheaper than petrol yet its not as efficient by 30% lmao so arnt you therefore losing money? also *E85 is better for the environment* how is it if its 30% less efficient lmao

12-08-2008, 13:00

Where's that quoted from? :confused:

Gymbob

12-08-2008, 20:07

[QUOTE=jp;3160587]*I came across this novel concept of bioethanol a while back, realised it was cheaper than petrol (by between 10 & 20%) & wondered what it took to run a normal car on it.

1) It has been said it can increase fuel consumption up to 30% more than with petrol. It's calorific content (I'm told) is less than that of petrol cause ethanol doesn't produce as much energy when burnt as petrol.
3) Availability isn't widespread. *

:D theres ya quote mr smarty pants lol :D

13-08-2008, 01:31

Have you read the whole thread? I've come a long way in my findings since the first post... ;)

Note also the "up to" and the fact that my car's tuned to take it, as opposed to generic piggybacks or factory ECUs that don't use it to its full potential. I don't use 30% more than I did petrol & if you'll look about 7 posts up on this very page (Post #184 (http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/showpost.php?p=4133948&postcount=184)) you'll see the latest fuel-related figures in my research.

Does that answer your question? :)

Gymbob

13-08-2008, 01:41

yes thanks :D :thumbs:

T.J

13-08-2008, 21:47

just wondering what would be the benefits of running e85 on a n/a car is there any??reason for asking i have a n/a car just waiting to be mapped toying with the idea of e85????what ye think would it be worth it?

PhatBob

13-08-2008, 22:01

You would need to massively increase the static compression. You'd be able to run silly high compression (you'd need to in order to light off the ethanol) to make use of the high octane rating of the fuel. I'd like to take my compression up to around 15:1 to run E85 on my SR20DE:nod:

sniffy

13-08-2008, 22:23

jp whats your cranking setting on your power fc the 10 and 30 ones ?

13-08-2008, 22:37

Ring me fella, easier to do it over the phone when I'm in the car. ;)

sniffy

13-08-2008, 23:05

jp ill prob give ya a buzz at some stage over the next few days.

14-08-2008, 01:17

Lol! Just not at 7:30am when you're trying to crank her up cause I won't have my phone on! :wack:

20-10-2008, 00:21

There was some good info being passed around on another thread so I've copied it in here for reference. :)

E85 make smore power with the same airflow? really? I was thinking opposite

different stochio ratio comparing to gasoline, thats this reason..with same amount of air much more fuel is possible with etanol..

stoichio of gasoline: 14.7:1
stoichio of E85: 9.7:1
E85 contains about 75% of energy of same amount of gasoline.

Becouse of E85 stoichio ratio you can use about 50% more of fuel for same amount of air (or airflow) compared to gasoline. Now extract 25% of energy (E85 contains only 75% of energy compared to gasolione) from this and result is still positive, in other words, E85 will make more power compared to gasoline with same air amount (air flow).

But beside of better stoichio ratio E85 have another advantage-higher octane. So you can use much mor ignition advance, what can (I beleive) completely delete last advantage of gasoline-higher energy contain...

Using alcohol as fuel have just advantages (in mean of power results) when compare to gasoline....But it have also disadvantages in other areas, like corrosion or water contamination...

raddy, great info about stochio, but what AFR is "most power" ratio for E85? And how do you set it up? Because afaik most wideband sensors don't read below 9:1 (and I don't know whether they read correctly E85 at all).

mobne, how did you set up your AFR on E85?

max lean power of E85 is at 8.47:1, max rich power for E85 is at 6:97.
dont worry about AFR, you dont need it at all, just read lambda, its same for any fuel....

some example:
E85 stoichiometric is at AFR 9.765 or lambda 1
E85 max power rich at AFR 6.975 or at lambda 0.7143
E85 max power lean at AFR 8.4687 or at lambda 0.8673

chris250

18-01-2009, 00:42

that is some excellent work, i've been wondering about this for a future project and all the info is here, as soon as Morrison's soll's it out accross all their forecourts then i'll be going ahead:sxoc::thumbs:

20-01-2009, 18:03

No bother sir! Let us know how you get on if & when you do it! :thumbs:

02-03-2009, 19:14

As JP asked me to put my knowledge in this thread...here it goes...

Depending on composition and source, E85 has an octane rating of 100 - 105[4] compared to regular gasoline's typical rating of 85 - 93. This allows it to be used in higher compression engines which tend to produce more power per unit of displacement than their gasoline counterparts. Since the reciprocating mass of the engine increases in proportion to the displacement of the engine E85 has a higher potential efficiency for an engine of equal power.

One complication is that use of gasoline in an engine with a high enough compression ratio to use E85 efficiently would likely result in catastrophic failure due to engine detonation, as the octane rating of gasoline is not high enough to withstand the greater compression ratios in use in an engine specifically designed to run on E85. Use of E85 in an engine designed specifically for gasoline would result in a loss of the potential efficiency that it is possible to gain with this fuel. Using E85 in a gasoline engine has the drawback of achieving lower fuel economy as more fuel is needed per unit air (stoichiometric fuel ratio) to run the engine in comparison with gasoline. This corresponds to a lower heating value (units of energy per unit mass) for E85 than gasoline.

Also the must the delevering station and the engine being able to deliver and use the E85 fuel.
Magnesium, aluminium and rubber parts will degenerat way faster that with normal fuel. Replace these parts for lets say RVS and your engine will be able to run E85 fuels.

02-03-2009, 19:25

As for the bad cranking, that can be down to a weak compression rate...think thats the main issue.....

02-03-2009, 20:33

Magnesium, aluminium and rubber parts will degenerat way faster that with normal fuel. Replace these parts for lets say RVS and your engine will be able to run E85 fuels.
What parts of an SR/RB/VG would that affect off the top of your head (if any)? I know it's natural rubbers (not synthetic that are in most fuel-injected engines) that are affected by the degradation. :nod:

As for the bad cranking, that can be down to a weak compression rate...think thats the main issue.....
From the latest info I've gathered of late the bad cranking on cold-start is down to the temperature the fuel is at when it enters the combustion chamber: being an alcohol it needs a higher temperature than petrol to stay atomised after flowing through the injectors and actually combust instead of consolidating again as droplets and not burning.

I know someone working on an in-line fuel heater system in Ireland, it'll be interesting to see how it works out but there's been no progress on it in a while with him. I'd like to do this myself but wouldn't know where to start. :confused:

Has anyone any idea for a safe fuel-rail heater design? Like a pipe or rail that you could gently (but quickly) heat with a coil that's not going to cause the fuel in the line to be dangerously hot? Maybe a thermostatically controlled one would be a necessity.

02-03-2009, 23:00

Muttly

03-03-2009, 11:35

Is it all good when warm btw? Did not really found that in the words writen on this.AFAIK its all fine when warm. Just the first start when cold is hard.

03-03-2009, 11:36

hmmm ok :)
If thats the fact...then my comment about weak compression is not even there :)

04-03-2009, 10:12

How about the complete head mate ;) Fully alu-magnesium build.
And everytime the E85 or fuel explodes ( makes the stroke ) then the head is affected.
Cant prove or tell how fast this will go, but the facts are there.
Can take years and years before you see any effects tho.

This is just what i have heard and read about the E85 fuels, so nothing from own experiences. But perhaps something to take a look at after a while.
I can't imagine Ford, Volvo etc making special heads made out of anything other than aluminium just to run E85 in their cars. I'd say we'll be waiting a few hundred years of having the heads steeped in E85 before we'll see that - no visible signs of wear the last time I took my head apart after over a year of running it on E85 - just a very clean head. ;)

AFAIK its all fine when warm. Just the first start when cold is hard.
:nod: Hence the fuel-temp comment. I'll have to get a fuel TEMP guage just to confuse the bejeesus out of people!! :wack:

hmmm ok :)
If thats the fact...then my comment about weak compression is not even there :)
Actually, speaking of which: Muttly, Mick Deane's high-comp SR22, why did you say he had trouble starting that? You mentioned something about compression..?

16-05-2009, 18:05

Quick update here - we now have an E85 Register going in the Ireland section (purely cause that's where most of us who have converted seem to be based - this may change with time :thumbs:).

Et voilá! E85 Register (http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=403255)

Amxen

19-05-2009, 20:15

Not a SR but some may find this interesting . My brothers RX7 this is running E85 and see if you can spot what is missing lol
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/amxen/Photo-0194.jpg

Dunkz

19-05-2009, 20:35

Not a SR but some may find this interesting . My brothers RX7 this is running E85 and see if you can spot what is missing lol

Pistons!

Amxen

19-05-2009, 20:41

well yer that as well but not what i was thinking of

Quail

19-05-2009, 20:53

Intercooler! :D

Amxen

19-05-2009, 21:17

Intercooler! :D

we have a winner lol this car is being tuned with no intercooler and a little tweek on the engine :thumbs:

20-05-2009, 03:17

sketch

20-05-2009, 07:33

whys he not got an intercooler?

gofaster_s13

20-05-2009, 08:46

Drag car ??

Amxen

20-05-2009, 21:10

Wow that engine's small... the bloody turbo's nearly the same size as it! :eek: Is he using methanol or how's he finding the intake temps?

On a separate note where did he get the inlet made and what size are the throttlebodies?

I must start by saying this car is totaly experimental

i think the the turbo is a T45 or T48 cant remember off the top of my head. Yes he's using methanol . it also has water and meth injection at numerous points . as for the intake temps im not 100% sure but i have stood and watched this car ticking over and the inlet ports start to ice up . iv seen them turn white with ice all over them and they are only 4inch from the turbo :wack:

the engine has had a peripheral port done by haywood rotary. (My brother runs and owns MX5 motors haywood rotary north).. haywood rotary made plenum and throtlebodies.

whys he not got an intercooler?

no need for one with the temp of the E85 being so cold and being a 90% drag car:thumbs:

Drag car ??

Well its kind of up in the air at the min but he is driving it on the road. its not easy to drive thow with soooooo much power and the p port .

this car has the potential to be very very very quick . he is thinking of ten of the best next year but its all unknown as yet .

just a quick vid of it running for you

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Oo5aSLxgLRY&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Oo5aSLxgLRY&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>