View Full Version : The Firefighters Strike!
Hi,
I am a Full Time FireFighter and I guess there are probably quite a few of you that have questions about the current FireFighters strike.
The current situation is that a FireFighter takes home £46 for one shift, most FireFighters I know want to be able to buy their own house and look after their families without relying on income support.
If people want to ask me any questions feel free!
Mark
Amdathlonuk
14-11-2002, 23:59
Hi mate,
I totally agree with what you're doing with the strike.
My only gripe is that the Army, who are no-where near as trained as the fireservice are being portrayed a some sort of cowboy outfit.
It's not the firefighters doing but the media, I think we should all appreciate what they are doing as well, they are now putting their lives on the line for a job they're not really trained to do?
JJ
amcluesent
15-11-2002, 00:09
Have to say I feel that the FBU leadership (Andy Gilchrist and his cohorts) are leading the membership into a no-win situation to further their own political ambitions.
Whatever pay increase is eventually awarded, your card will have been marked by both this govt. and a future Tory one (yes, there are some of us keeping the faith :( ) and the reforms on working practices, when they come, will be all the more extensive as a result.
Pauly_Boy
15-11-2002, 00:25
IDS with the economy! haha. aziff mate.
Gordon brown and co have cocked it up as it is with pay rises and this stupid PPP thing all over the place, air traffic control, tube, schools, hospitals. You name it, we're leasing it off the provate sector.
Anyway, i'm not sure what hours and that you do, but say you do 4 days a week, 4 x 46 = 184 184 x 52 = £9,568 which is half the actual salary you earn. Could you please tell me how many days a week you do and how many hours. Also, do you have a second job and how many call outs do you have a day/week and what varity are they.
Sorry for the ****ish attitude, but i think 40% is trying to hold the country to ransom, and basicly you all know how much money your going to earn before you started etc etc, i'm sure you've read the other thread.
Anyway, looking forward to a honest answer.
Paul
SX Turbo Chic
15-11-2002, 00:39
No questions, just pure praise. Mr T and myself find it difficult to digest that people doing such a dangerous and unpredictable job get paid less than middle range managers at a supermarket. Are potatoes and cucumbers really that dangerous!!!????? (Hey there's a new thread in the making there!) Good luck to you all, hope you get what you really deserve.! xxx
I know you guys do a good job, and obviously 21k isnt good enough pay for putting your life on the line everyday, but it should not have come to this.
people are dying in fires because of a stupid issue of money..
im sure the relatives of all those that have died in fires whilst you are on strike would personally pay you the difference in your current wage to that which you seek if it meant their loved ones still being alive.
A persons life is priceless.. how can a pay rise of a few thousand mean more than a life ?
Imran Tunio
15-11-2002, 01:19
Hope the firefighters get what they deserve a 40% increase.
They are like the backbone of the country, true heros that risk their lives for others, nuff said!!
Good luck!!!
I wonder what the chances are of "Big Brother" Johnny's house going a'had, ...now maybe that would shut the tw*t up.
I respect the firefighters and the great job that they do but I cant understand why the expected figure of a rise is so high. Have they not had a payrise for ten years or something???
They also must have thought the money was okay when they all started doing the job, so why moan about it now?. I would not have risked my life doing the job for that money in the first place !.
If I told my gaffer I wanted a 10K payrise, he would tell me to feck off and replace me at the first opportunity. I am sure though that there would be lots of people willing to do their jobs for the money they get.
I also think the stand in guys should be using the modern equipment and not those old godesses, after all whose money bought them in the first place. I want a feckin rebate on my taxes!.
To end and I am sure you will all agree that the hoax call stuff going on is sheer stupidty and this will no doubt cost lives.
Daughter says " Daddy, why are those firemen standing round a burning dustbin on a sh*tty night like this on their mobile phones, when the nice warm station is 10 metres away. God bless her shes only seven ! :D
SX Turbo Chic
15-11-2002, 01:51
Hey do you live on another planet or something? What do you do for a job?????? Risk your life day in and day out for other people, probably not. Okay I can understand why Mr Blair perhaps wont give in, but without the fire brigade, ambulance staff, doctors, nurses etc where would we be, dead I think. okay you start a job on 20 grand a year, do you expect to stay on that income forever, noone would. Somebody needs to take a stand against this government, they've got their heads up their arses where job appreciation is concerned. I've done several jobs over the years, but have I ever saved a life?..... no, give them what they deserve.
xxx
beavertron
15-11-2002, 03:11
What annoys me is that the government, whos responsibility it is to ensure the safety of the population has not provided adequate cover during the strikes which is probably going to lead directly to people dieing and they lay this responsibility onto the firemen who have given the gvment 2months notice - plenty of time to prepare. The G`ment should have better contingency plans.
I DON'T KNOW THE INS AND OUTS OF THE WHOLE SITUATION,BUT BASICALLY I BELIEVE U R DEFINETLY ENTITLED 2 A DECENT PAY RISE,40%MAYBE A BIT AMBITIOUS? U ALL RISK YOUR LIVES 4 US ON A DAILY BASIS AND U R NOT JUST FIREMEN AND WOMEN ANYMORE,BUT A COMPLETE RESCUE SERVICE!!! STILL AMAZES ME THAT POLITICIANS R ALLOWED 2 SET THEIR OWN ANNUAL PAY INCREASES:mad: :mad: ,SAME OLD STORY,1 RULE 4 THEM AND ANOTHER SET OF RULES 4 EVERY1ELSE. PERHAPS IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER IF GUY FAWKES HAD GOT HIS OWN WAY,BET THE POLITICIANS WOULD HAVE INCREASED YOUR WAGES 2 PUT THAT FIRE OUT:D :D :D
bond_200
15-11-2002, 07:45
What about paramedics? they are on **** pay but nowadays they risk their lives a fair amount too but they arent on strike putting others lives on the line. If u wanted a good salary along with a rewarding job - try the policeforce?? The salary cant be that bad in the fir brigade as otherwise there wouldnt be so many people wanting to join - they get ****loads of applications. Also, if lives are lost on these strikes then I think public support will slowly disappear. Not trying to start an argument, just pointing out a few things.
Jezz_S13
15-11-2002, 08:07
I'm in full support.
Originally posted by SX Turbo Chic
Hey do you live on another planet or something? What do you do for a job?????? Risk your life day in and day out for other people, probably not.
I dont think they do this, and there are many ather jobs where this is the case, and therefore should not be a reason for negotiation.
Did you know that many more British deep sea fishermen die each year than Firefighters? Whats their pay like?????? What are their work conditions like??
Who can put a value on a job? If it were so, Paramedics and Fire fighters should be right up there at the top.
I agree with a pay rise, but not 40%, seeing as it comes out of local authority money. What else would be cut to pay for it, seeing as there is already not enough money for everthing.
My question is:
Why is it only now that the FBU is sorting out the pay? Why have they left it fall so far behind??
Can you clear up a few things? Don't want this to seem hostile, but I've heard a few things...
Didn't the firefighter's union the their salaries to the highest paid manual labourer's salaries (during the last building boom, when manual labourers were on more than white collar workers). That was a juicy deal for several years (like the Police one), but has now fallen behind.
Isn't strike actually in breach of firefighter contract?
From a few friends, I understand that there is a huge list of people wishing to join the service. When this happened in my industry a while back (contractors turning permy) then salaries slumped due to basic supply and demand.
Aren't you allowed to retire at 48 on 2/3 pension or something.
[edit: typed salary by accident first time!]
Now onto my mindless opinions...
I don't know how many times firefighters risk their lives on a day-to-day basis. London's Burning is probably not too factual in this respect! :) In the worst days of Northern Island though, Joe Squaddie patrolling Belfast on foot, getting physical abuse and bricks thrown at him, not being able to go 'out', having a very dangerous, stressful and physically demanding job and operating high-tech gear got paid rather a lot less than 20kpa.
Yes, it's a potentially dangerous job and involves sometimes scraping up messy bits, I agree. I do however find 40% totally unreasonable. It's a ransom. There are lots of other deserving cases and a lot of others (medical and military) could put forward many of the same arguements. Governement service - no matter the risks - is always low paid, but often made up in security and pension. At a time where the governent is trying to stave of a financial slump that has affected almost every country in the world except us, a 40% raise in the public sector salaries would destroy put us into serious reccesion.
I used to work for the governement and had a lot of responsibility, a dangerous and bloody difficult job, mad hours and a lot less than 20kpa.
£18K is more than £46
Dont blame you for wanting more money but holding the country to ransom is not they way to do it!
7 people dead in 2 days thats double that normal average.
My uncle is a part timer - he does it for FREE!
bond_200
15-11-2002, 08:55
Likeothers have said, firefighters do not actually put their lives at risk on every job they go out on - look at the equipment and the training they have - it is alot better than what the armed forces are using at the mo. If u r saying that u dont earn enough money to buy a house or have kids then how do others manage on 12K a year?? My mate has 3 kids and runs a 3 bedroomed house - he earns just over 15K a year and is constantly skint but I rarely hear him winge about lack of money. Get another job if u want a ridiculous salary - or live with job satisfaction and a good salary. ******** to letting people die for no good reason.
Will Taylor
15-11-2002, 09:21
MarkH,
How do you feel about denying the army access to the more advanced firefighting hardware in the stations?
Cheers,
Will
shadow21
15-11-2002, 11:11
Hi,
Sorry, I don't know the ins and outs of the debate (I'm French, and didn't even know there was a firefighter strike in UK, sorry...)
but:
I respect the hard job you do (My English is way too poor to explain the REAL respect and admiration I have for people who can risk their lives and health to save other ones), but:
- is it true you are on a COMPLETE STRIKE? i.e: no shift AT ALL?
if yes, you deserve to go to jail for the rest of your lives for letting other people die (if not, then forget that sentence)
- Firefighter should FIRST be considered as a VOCATION, not a JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it's not like delivering pizzas!
- Why did you choose this job if you knew it would be under-paid??? are you completely stupid?
Oh, by the way, I HATE strikes. As a french citizen, we are overwhelmed by strikes from people who have HUGE advantages over simple workers (like me), and who can paralyze the country, just because they think their wages are too low, or because they feel unconsidered :rolleyes: . They are the French "fonctionnaires"...
We had only 2 "positive" strikes those last years:
The nurses and the FIREFIGHTERS. They CONTINUED DOING THEIR (hard) JOB. Firefighters just signalled that they were on strike when they were called, and didn't move on "small interventions", like cats in the trees, stomach pains, etc..., and the words "on strike" were written on their clothes and trucks.
THAT made them gain huge sympathy from the public.
My 2p
Cheers
Fabien
7 people dead in 2 days thats double that normal average
And how many of these deaths would we have actually heard about if the firefighters weren't on strike? Even murders don't make the national headlines any more unless the media decide there's a good story in it :rolleyes:
Imran Tunio
15-11-2002, 11:57
Perhaps they have put in a request of 40% because they might be expected to accept 30% or something, if they had put 30% then they might have to except 20%......
Just a thought really, quite like a car deal you put it in for more expecting to be knocked downa bit.
Regardless, I wish someone would get through to that Dictator Blair, if stopped kissing bushes arse for once and concentrated on his domestic issues we would all be better off, and the NHS wouldn't be falling a apart.....
NHS is falling apart to to huge admin costs and massive wasting of money. eg Surgeons getting £300 designer sunglasses free because they claim that they are their surgery glasses.
Interesting to hear the French firefighter's methods of striking.
The common perception here is that the French as a whole strike over the slightest thing and that the first thing they do is block Calais off and screw over English exports!
i understand that its 1.4 people per day on average!
shadow21
15-11-2002, 13:10
Originally posted by siranui
Interesting to hear the French firefighter's methods of striking.
The common perception here is that the French as a whole strike over the slightest thing and that the first thing they do is block Calais off and screw over English exports!
That's the sad truth, my friend...
And wait for the end of the year...
Truckers want to go on strike. They have an average of 1 strike per 2 years, and they paralyze the whole country!
Last one was a real financial pain for the WHOLE country.
That year, they want better wages (as usual), and what we call a "13th month" salary (i.e: another month wage, dispatched in 1 time, 2 times, or 12 times through the year)
With similar experience, in my job, I earn about 1,5 times what a trucker win (average basis), but I CHOOSED to travel an average 30000 miles per year, I CHOOSED my job, I CHOOSED to sometimes work 15 hours a day for the satisfaction of a well done job, I choosed to earn 1,5 times LESS that they win (during 6 years!!!), to gain experience for a better job.
Didn't they choose their job?
And you know what? I don't have a "13th" month...
I hate that kind of lobbies... I hate the image they give of my country, I hate the fact that other countries may see us as a whole mass of lazy gits who always complain for a yes or a no, who you can't trust, etc... etc...
sorry, I'm quiet upset at the mo' : I've been caught speeding last night on my way back home (~200 daily miles when I don't meet customers ) another contribution from my pocket directly to the government which doesn't know how to handle the constantly complaining mass of the people we pay (public service).
Sorry, I'm gonna stop now, my ulcere is waking up ;)
...
...
...
Originally posted by will_taylor
MarkH,
How do you feel about denying the army access to the more advanced firefighting hardware in the stations?
Cheers,
Will
I've not heard this, someone tell me this is not true!
Who owns the fire engines? Why make it harder for other people to save lifes? So as more people than normal die (twice the average as already stated) to make a point!
Disgusted.
If striking is a breach of contract they should be sacked like anyone else would be. Let the people who care about saving lives instead of money in to do the job.
Dunc.
Will Taylor
15-11-2002, 13:43
No, it's not true mate, when I posted the announcement hadn't gone out, but the official line is now reported to be that the firefighters will NOT stop the forces taking the red fire engines - however this was an issue that was arising, which like you, I thought was pretty shoddy.
Will
Chris_Lacey
15-11-2002, 13:52
Personally I think the strike is shocking.
They knew what they were signing up for, they haven't had to spend years in education to become skilled enough to do it, high risk situations although frequent aren't constant.
Why not give them a 5-10% Rise in base rate and then danger money at like tripple time when actually called out to a fire? That way when it's dangerous they make £40 an hour, and when they are sat about waiting for a call they get the base rate?
Either way, the firefighters don't get much sympathy from me, sure you want more money for what you do, but letting innocent people who don't make the descision die in their homes isn't the best way forward.
Will Taylor
15-11-2002, 13:57
Originally posted by Chris_Lacey
Why not give them a 5-10% Rise in base rate and then danger money at like tripple time when actually called out to a fire? That way when it's dangerous they make £40 an hour, and when they are sat about waiting for a call they get the base rate?
Thats not a bad idea
Chris Lacey for President/Il Duce/Der Fuhrer ;)
Jezz_S13
15-11-2002, 13:58
Originally posted by will_taylor
Chris Lacey for President/Il Duce/Der Fuhrer ;)
I'd rather eat my own intestines.
Either way, the firefighters don't get much sympathy from me, sure you want more money for what you do, but letting innocent people who don't make the descision die in their homes isn't the best way forward.
But the thing is until there's an inquest, there's no way of knowing if these people would have died anyway, strike or not.
Dont really know how to put this, and Im split between the "Yes Im for it" and the "No, Im not"
Primerily, I think Firefighters do a sterling job for the country (My dad was a firefighter, and now works for the Firebrigade as a fire safety inspector), and the pay they get is low for what they do. However, a 40% instant rise seems a little steep all in one go.
Personally, I think they do deserve a rise, but 40% NOW! seems a little unrealistic. However, the gvmnts offer also seems to be not enough, and plans for rises over the next umpteen years seems too much for the firefighters to accept.
I think the strikes are wrong (this is where it gets complicated), but as a firefighter I would strike, though I think id lower my sights on the pay demands.
On a final note, good luck to them, and lets hope an amicable resolve for both sides can be found sooner rather than later.
Pauly_Boy
15-11-2002, 14:08
Originally posted by shadow21
- Why did you choose this job if you knew it would be under-paid??? are you completely stupid?
Well said. I choose to do IT, but now the bottom has fell out the market, and finding a job is imposible. People are getting layed off, which i might add is something people in the public sector don't have to worry about! I've spent Thousands of pounds training, and i'm stuck in a bloodly supermarket earning £14k.
I'm contemplating re-training as something else, eg, where theres a shortage of staff, which will cost me more money. I don't see fire fighters having to go through this!
Imran Tunio
15-11-2002, 14:28
I can't beleive anyone would be against the firefighters! if you had a car accident who do you think is going to come to your rescue and save your life at the drop of the hat???
What if one of your family or freinds were involved in a accident, and there was no fire fighters to assist the situation!! how much would you give then to save a loved one!!
You can't really put a cost on a human life.
Firefighters save thousands of live in critical situations, yes doctors do and surgeons too but they get paid loads.
Quite funny to see half of the london underground closed due to the strike! just shows their importance.
Cruisemad
15-11-2002, 14:34
Firefighters, they all do a good job, im full of admiration for them.
But,
40% - Come on boys, let's get real here.
20% - Don't think so.
15% - Yeh seems reasonable.
shadow21
15-11-2002, 15:20
Originally posted by Imran Tunio
I can't beleive anyone would be against the firefighters! if you had a car accident who do you think is going to come to your rescue and save your life at the drop of the hat???
Not someone on strike
Originally posted by Imran Tunio
What if one of your family or freinds were involved in a accident, and there was no fire fighters to assist the situation!!
Isn't it the case?
Originally posted by Imran Tunio
Firefighters save thousands of live in critical situations,
When they are not on a strike
Originally posted by Imran Tunio
Quite funny to see half of the london underground closed due to the strike! just shows their importance.
Of course they are important!
I re-read all the posts here, and I think nobody only slightly meant that firefighters are not important.
As I said before, I have a huge respect and admiration for those men and wowen.
The fact is you can't consider a whole country inhabitants to be hostages ONLY BECAUSE YOU WANT MORE MONEY !!!!!?????!!!
I think everybody on this earth would love to have a dream life!
I struggled to get what I have now (very nice ;) car/ bike / house / family / money enough to feel comfortable and raise my children, etc...), but I haven't yet reached my objectives! BUT I won't endanger other people's lifes just because I'm not happy enough with what I have!!
Hope it makes sense
Cheers
Fabien
BTW: This is my feeling about any hostage case. Feel free to kick my ass if you think I shouldn't talk about that specific UK subject, I'll see no offense. (but don't flame me! - wait for that strike to stop before)
>I can't beleive anyone would be against the firefighters! if you >had a car accident who do you think is going to come to your >rescue and save your life at the drop of the hat???
Currently, the army because firefighter won't do it because they want more money. Y'know..the army. Those people who sign up to get shot at in some distant land for about 15kpa and are also there to help in floods, national disasters (shovelling dead cows into holes) and when any section of the country goes on strike (tanker drivers etc). :)
Amdathlonuk
15-11-2002, 19:14
Originally posted by siranui
>I can't beleive anyone would be against the firefighters! if you >had a car accident who do you think is going to come to your >rescue and save your life at the drop of the hat???
Currently, the army because firefighter won't do it because they want more money. Y'know..the army. Those people who sign up to get shot at in some distant land for about 15kpa and are also there to help in floods, national disasters (shovelling dead cows into holes) and when any section of the country goes on strike (tanker drivers etc). :)
Well said that man...........
We mustn't forget the Army, the people who are told what to do, do it with outdated tools making the job harder in the first place. Less than adequate training, making the job harder still and for less money!!
I don't see them on strike, oh they can't can they.......
Pauly_Boy
16-11-2002, 00:57
at the end of the day, if 40 people are applying for every firefighter vacency, then the rules of supply and demand should dictate that wages should actually go lower! In reality this can't happen, but a rise inline with inflation is perfectly reasonable!!
Matt George
16-11-2002, 10:11
Hi there,
I am in total agreement with your Strike Action. Thing is what i don't understand is that they keep going on about 40%, what you want is £30,000, which just happens to be some 40% on top of your current wage.
I am a Matelot, that is a member of the Royal Navy, i earn way above what you as Firefighters earn at the moment for doing a job for our country, albeit in a different capacity. I have firefighting experience and am well aware of the dangers involved.
Good Luck in your endeavours to get a fair pay deal for the dangers involved in your job.
Honk, Honk. :)
AshT_200
16-11-2002, 10:32
I'd be in agreement with the 30K Pay Rise.......... but I'd like to see deductions for pensions etc.
Don't get me wrong, I do believe you're entitled to more, but you get other perks which us in the private sector don't get.
P.S. Are you getting paid whilst on strike? If not, are your Union bosses getting paid whilst you're on strike?
AshT_200
16-11-2002, 10:34
Originally posted by Imran Tunio
I can't beleive anyone would be against the firefighters! if you had a car accident who do you think is going to come to your rescue and save your life at the drop of the hat???
Paramedics?
I agree that the Firefighters should get better pay, as should all of the public service professions. The government has obviously realised they are underpaid because they have initiated this cheap housing scheme for key workers. I do think that 40% is really taking the p155 though, and striking is not the right way of doing it.
Yeah it's a dangerous job but other public service jobs are just as bad, my mates wife is an A&E nurse. She and her colleages regularly get assaulted every Friday and Saturday night when dealing with the pi55ed up twats as do the paramedics. My girlfriends best mate is also an A&E nurse and she has suffered the same. My uncle is a Policeman. He started on about 14k 7 years ago and is now on only about 24k. Love 'em or hate them, I think there were more police killed in the UK last year than firefighters or am I wrong? On 24k a year you struggle to even buy a decent 2 bed house in the south east. You then compare that the one of my mates who earns 70k a year as some IT teccy in the city and by his own admission does feck all most of the day!
I think the press should give the Army a break too. It's the governments fault that they had no contingencies other than some antiquated equipment and, through no fault of their own, ill trained personnel to man them. The Army are doing their level best to provide cover in my opinion. If the Army have to cross the picket lines to use the firefighters equipment and the firefighters try to prevent them I think public support will shift towards the Army and the FBU may find themselves on a back foot.
AshT_200
16-11-2002, 10:59
Don't blame the press re: comments about the army, I hear fire fighters being interviewed on the radio, slagging the army off, saying that they weren't trained etc.
I think that the army is doing a sterling job and have had to suffer cuts and poor pay. But you won't see them going on strike when we go to war with Iraq. They go to war with crap equipment, but they still go to work. They don't strike.
Lastly, suer there is a national average of about 5 deaths in 2 days, but they don't happen at a regular rate, so the increase should be taken with a pinch of salt.
The real problem is, is that your Union has failed you.
at £18k they are earning the national average - just. BUT on say a 8 hour shift how many hours are spent figthing fires?
they also get good sick pay, suspended on full pay if mess up, and a fat pension when they retire at quite a young age.
I earn a little bit more but am self employed, do alot more hours and have none of the above purks! £30k + perks = get real!
They do a sterling job but if they want a fat pay cheque then they should cut the pension and get their own like the private sector.
Hi,
Well thanks for the response, and I hope I can answer everybody's queries!
Firstly thanks for the support and apologies to anyone who has suffered because of this action. I know of no Firefighters who want to take this action, but 90% voted that it is their only redress to this problem.
OK it seems there has been a bit of misinformation spread about which I will try to address.
The Mp's and Tony Blair received a substantial payrise a while ago which they gladly granted themselves.
The unions and the employers of fire fighters employed the services of the same review board, which determined the Mp's pay. To complete a study to determine what firefighters should be paid. The two figures they came up with were £32k and £30k, the union chose to adopt the lower figure!
This is where the figure of 30K or a 40% payrise has come from!
The media use the 40% figure it sounds more dramatic!
Once again this board was good enough to determine MP's pay!
By the way, if Firefighters had been granted the same percentage payrises as MP's over the last 25 years, the FireFighters pay would be 36K per Annum.
Which Public Servants Last Payrise was over 40%?
Ans= Tony Blair
No we do not get paid whilst on strike, neither do our union officials.
No we are not in breach in of our contracts!
By the way, when you are buying your SX, do you always offer the buyer the full asking price?
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A few people have said, Fire Fighters know what they are getting into when they join!
Yes they do or did, but the current pay formula was worked out in 1977 and related FF's pay to semiskilled workers, which is a dwindling workforce, and the dwindling manufacturing industry in which they mostly reside.
The pay increases have been reducing over the last twenty years and that is why we have been trying to play catchup now.
The employers have also acknowledged that the increase in the knowledge and skills have moved this to a skilled workers position and the pay should be reflected accordingly.
The training and knowledge and working practices
are infinite and keeping a lid upon this is very difficult!
Secondly on this point, when most FF's join the job usually they
are youngish, single and don't have any kids.
These situations change, don't FF's deserve to be able to raise their children without claiming State support, which many do Now.
And also to raise their children in some modicum of a financially stable environment!Why should FF's families suffer?
By the way, FF's get paid a flat rate after 4 years of 21,500.
With very little Overtime to enhance that, and no other enhancements apart from local weighting allowances of which mine in London is 3k, which really does compensate you for living in London.
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So why don't FF's leave their job and get a better paid one, some of you say, as I know when I joined, you had a 100 to 1 chance of getting in!
The cost of recruiting and training the new FF's would definitely outweigh the economic benefits of paying them low wages.
Secondly there is the question of experience, twenty year firefighters are often consulted by senior managers on how to resolve incidents, because they have seen it before!
When I first entered a fire you fell the heat envelope you, you are ****ting yourself because you honestly don't know hot it is going to get. Your ringpiece is dilating to the size of a HKS tailpipe and your mind is running around like a headless chicken!
You get so hot sometimes the sweat trapped between your clothes turns to steam and burns you. But I got through this because a more experienced FF guides you calmly through it!
Today I am that more experienced FF, which one would you rather have rescue your kids? One that is inexperienced, underpaid, demoralised and is so tired moon lighting his arse off to do his job properly? Or a properly paid professional?
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Yes we get a great Pension!
BECAUSE FF's PAY FOR IT!
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FF's shouldn't strike because it is Moral Blackmail!
Who is blackmailing who?
Are the Gov getting cheap workers by saying it is immoral for FF's to strike? But Continuing to underpay them!
The last essex and merseyside strikes have been to save Fire engines from being cut, saving the publics lives.
Hardly the actions of Selfish blackmailers!
This is the second time in 100 years the FBU has existed that it has striked nationally!
Andy Gilchrist has a poster of Che Guvara on his wall, big deal, he has done what the membership has voted for, not what he wants!
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Fabien,
I am not being insulted professionally and personally by someone who's efforts would be better spent sorting out the problems in his own country!
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Someone quoted figures for the Police wages, that was a basic salary not including Overtime, benefits, cheap mortgages, rent allowance, free travel.
The only add-ons FF's get is a local weighting allowance, which for me in London is 3k, most other FF's get nothing. Also we do very little Overtime, the most I have ever earnt in OT has been £600 in one year.
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Paramedics do not cut you out of a car, FF's do!
The FF's have never objected to the Military using fire Appliances, they belong to a leasing company and have nothing to do with us!
I think it would be stupid to let inadequately trained personnel near them, it takes twenty weeks of training to get to know the equipment on that machine.
I cannot comment on other current Public service pay or conditions, my mother was a nurse in A&E for twenty five years. She regretted the conditions and pay she worked under and I suffered as a direct result of her underpay and work!
The military do a great job, I can relate to public unrest though, I have had a TV thrown at me from the 10th floor and regularly get abuse from the Public!
Dano, there are no Part time FF's who do it for free, they all get a basic of 2.5K! and money for each shout!
Somebody else asked about shifts, full time FF's work 2 days 0900-1800 followed by two nights 1800-0900 the next day, followed by three days off!
Hope I have answered everybodys questions.
Sure you relate your own pay to the FF's, but if a plane hit Canary Wharf one day, would your Boss ask you to rescue people from it?
All the Best,
Mark
AshT_200
16-11-2002, 14:40
Originally posted by MarkH
Ok,
So your Pension contributions are deducted from your gross pay?
But I take offence at the Paramedics quip. Fire fighters may cut them from the car, but the paramedics generally perform the emergency operations on location that save the victims life.
It's a little unfair on the rest of the general public to base an increase of salaries on the percentage that the MPs awarded themselves. Everyone knows tat they are a rule unto themselves
AshT_200
16-11-2002, 14:48
The real answer tho, is to fixing the shocking state the property market is in. Sure if you're in the position to sell, you'll no doubtedly disagree, but when you're looking to buy your 1st home, it is demoralising. FFS, a 30% Rise in House prices last year? Something has to be wrong with that.
So your Pension contributions are deducted from your gross pay?
But I take offence at the Paramedics quip. Fire fighters may cut them from the car, but the paramedics generally perform the emergency operations on location that save the victims life.
It's a little unfair on the rest of the general public to base an increase of salaries on the percentage that the MPs awarded themselves. Everyone knows tat they are a rule unto themselves
Read this thread properly again.ASH
There was no quip against paramedics, a previous member thought paramedics removed casualties from the car in a road traffic accident. I was telling them that FireFighters generally remove people from a car crash when they are trapped, or can only be removed by cutting the car away from them.
The review board that assessed the MP's financial worth, was commisioned by the FBU and employers to assess a FF's worth.
Their conclusion was not in any way related to what an MP 'earns', I was drawing what some people call a comparison!
Yes Pension contribututions are taken from our pay.
Some more information for you, the government started a Key Workers Housing scheme to enable Public Office workers to obtain cheap housing in London/South East
Guess what the Fire Fighters are not defined by the Government as being Key Workers, and so are not included upon this scheme!
Mark
AshT_200
16-11-2002, 17:15
Originally posted by MarkH
Read this thread properly again.ASH
There was no quip against paramedics, a previous member thought paramedics removed casualties from the car in a road traffic accident. I was telling them that FireFighters generally remove people from a car crash when they are trapped, or can only be removed by cutting the car away from them.
I did, the comment was
"I can't beleive anyone would be against the firefighters! if you had a car accident who do you think is going to come to your rescue and save your life at the drop of the hat??? "
Doesn't mention cutting anyone from the car. I'm not being pedantic, but it isn't just fire fighters who spend their time saving lives. There was a comment on the news recently, that the Unions blocked paramedic training for firefighter. If this hadn't been blocked, and FF's had the training, then I would change my attitude and support them more. I'm not saying I don't support you, I'm just saying that I don't support the strikes.
Yes Pension contribututions are taken from our pay.
Fair enough, I was just asking.
Some more information for you, the government started a Key Workers Housing scheme to enable Public Office workers to obtain cheap housing in London/South East
Guess what the Fire Fighters are not defined by the Government as being Key Workers, and so are not included upon this scheme!
Neither do many people working in the Private Sector on low pay.
1 Final thing, there was a comment regarding I.T. People.
Pauly_Boy
16-11-2002, 19:09
So you have a 1-100 chance of getting a job in the fire service!
Whats the first, well maybe second rule of business....
Supply and Demand.
You didn't actually answer questions like how much time do you actually spend fighting fires, I belive its actually a meir 1% of you duty time, and you only spend 10% out in calls. Would it not be fair to say that to actually spend about 50% of your shift actually sitting around or sleeping on a night shift?
Paul,
You are 100% right supply and demand is one of the first rules of business, but the fire brigade is not a business it is a service!
Sorry I didn't answer your other question, I must be slacking, I missed it among the other 40 odd replies to this post!
You want a complete breakdown of my time spent on a fire station, why don't you go and spend a day visiting Surrey fire brigades head quarters, they are your area head quarters and will spend a day with you explaining the role of the modern fire service, which is not only about fighting fires!
At my current station we answer 8000 calls a year, the vast majority of those are fire calls, that is roughly one an hour. So we have time to get their, deal with the incident and then return to the station through London traffic, which often means we don't get back to the station before picking up another shout via the radio!
So you want to know what else we go to apart from fires calls!
Car crashes
Train Crashes
People thrown under trains
Plane crashes
People threatening to jump off buildings
People locked in
People Locked out
People stuck in Lifts
People trapped in Machinery
People
Chemical spills
Floodings
Bombs
Chemical attack
Explosions
Trapped horses, cats, dogs and assisting RSPCA
Industrial accidents
Radioactive incidents
Anywhere the ambulance or police require our help!
That is just a list I have rattled off in 5 mins, also there is the station admin, training, community education programme, school safety program and the fire safety inspections we have to complete.
Yes we probably do only spend 1% of our time actually fighting the fires, lets hope that figure doesn't grow!
No we do not spend 50% of our time sitting around or sleeping, I have served at less busy stations, but the fact that you can wake up to a raging inferno or someone dying tends not to be a good precursor to a good nights sleep!
Mark
SteveCarter200
16-11-2002, 20:45
I have already made a comment in the other thread about the worth and pay of firefighters compared to IT peeps which was answered by the comment that the country would fall apart if all the IT workers went on strike.
Now this may be true but there would be no casualties due to a lack of IT personnel.
But the thing that amazes me about some peole comment here is the "How much time do you spend actually working/fighting fires".
This really takes the biscuit considering the popularity and use of this BB which is mostly populated by IT people during work hours! Obviously over-productivity is not a common factor in the IT business.
Also ,relating to the same comment, does it really matter if the FFs were sitting on their arses for 50% of their shift? The fact is that they are there, ready to do their job. Would you really be happy with them just being 'on call', so they are sitting at home waiting for a pager to go off? I would imagine that would increase response times by a considerable amount. "Sorry that your family is dead in your burnt house Mrs Smith but the FFs couldnt get to the station on time because its rush hour and the buses they were using to get into work couldnt get through the traffic."
Or would you prefer it that they are fighting fires for all of their shift? Wouldnt that mean a substantial increase in the amount of fires? Surely if they arent actually working that is a good thing, it means that peoples lives arent in danger.
This is similar in essence to any type of 'faulting cover'. If theres no faults to fix it means that everything is working smoothly. Peachy, just what we want.
And as for comparing their pay to the Police force, I'm sure we all agree after the number of angry driving related posts on here that they waste a hell of a lot of time doing pointless 'work' as well. And I have recently been told of a 40 year old man that joined the Police force with no experience whatsoever as a trainee on a salary of £27000. Now that is ridiculous.
Thats me done for the time being.:)
Ash,
The FBU did not block paramedic training, they will try to block FireFighters attending Medical calls, for the following reasons!
The Government want Fire Appliances to deal with medical emergencies for one reason MONEY.
If you had a properly funded ambulance service this would not be an issue!
The role of a firefighter and Paramedic are both professional and completely different roles at an emergency.
They both require vast amounts of training, knowledge and skills.
If you try and amalgamate these two professional services you will get one massive amateur cock up.
Why have FF's attending medical emergencies, why not the police, why not the army, why not meals on wheels!
Remember when a fire appliance is committed to one medical emergency, they are then committed to that incident and can go on no further incidents. Even if there are people dying in a fire in their own area, so another fire appliance has to come two or three times as far.
If the ambulance service was in a state of good health itself then it could look after its customers!
Mark
This is the way i look at it, i feel hard done by with what i get paid, every one does and if you dont then you dont value yourself as highly as your employer does, however.
If you are a normal person or a FF would you really care what FFs are getting paid if you find yourself in an upside down car, trapped with fuel leaking and a crew of army boys without the kit to get you out. watching from afar!
I dont think so!
If a death could be attributed to the strike action (Very difficult i know) then the guy in charge of the union that balloted its members on strike action should be held accountable for the death/s.
Probobly not a very popular point of view but i resent the possiblilty that i could die because the people who are trained to save lives and who already earn a lot more than i do go on strike.
So should the Gov be held accountable for a 30% increase in fire deaths in London, since they have cut back by 15 Fire Appliances in a year?
By all means, if you can track down the slippery devil who authourised it and can prove that without a shadow of a doubt it was his/her fault ( almost impossible over such a wide range of circumstances i would imagine) Unless you want to hold the whole goverment responsible regardless, in which case it would be the equivalent of holding every FF who voted to strike to book for any deaths.
In any and all organisations there has to be accountability for the actions of that organisation.
Firefighters to foremen, politicians to shop keepers.
I personally believe that the FFs deserve the same wages as the police but i do not approve of the methods of bringing about those changes. The people who in my opinion deserve to be complaining are the armed forces. I wonder if the FFs would be keen to step in if the army went on strike and war was declared.
Just my opinion.
Rob
Pauly_Boy
17-11-2002, 00:45
Originally posted by SteveCarter200
Also ,relating to the same comment, does it really matter if the FFs were sitting on their arses for 50% of their shift? The fact is that they are there, ready to do their job. Would you really be happy with them just being 'on call', so they are sitting at home waiting for a pager to go off?
no, they should be knitting jumpers for those poor iraqes that keep flooding into our country! That way they can stay in calais homeless for that little bit longer!
Rob,
Strange you should say that probably 20-30% of Firefighters are ex military personnel.
Mark
AshT_200
17-11-2002, 08:29
Originally posted by MarkH
So should the Gov be held accountable for a 30% increase in fire deaths in London, since they have cut back by 15 Fire Appliances in a year?
I don't care what anyone gets, what I care about is what they do to get it.
And the money has to come from somewhere. What service is going to be cut to give tem the 40% increase?
And on a second note, the nurses aer in a far worse position, but you don't see them striking.
AshT_200
17-11-2002, 09:13
Originally posted by SteveCarter200
I have already made a comment in the other thread about the worth and pay of firefighters compared to IT peeps which was answered by the comment that the country would fall apart if all the IT workers went on strike.
Now this may be true but there would be no casualties due to a lack of IT personnel.
Steve,
I fully support the Firefighters needs for extra money. I don't support the strikes tho. But making I'll judged quips about the I.T. Sector doesn't help.
Sure questions have been asked as to how munch time is spent Fighting fires is irrelevant, FFs are on call, much like doctors etc (And me)
To answer one of your I.T. Questions,
I am paid to maintain a Corporate Network for one of Britains larger Pharmaceutical Companies. Much of my work is fixing problems that arise, so you could say that I am on call for some of that time. 1 point that was rammed home to me by our QA manager this week, If I don't perform my Job correctly, the MCA and the FDA could order the company to stop trading. That rule also holds true for 90% of the staff.
We are the largest supplier of drugs to the NHS. Much of their lifesaving drugs can only be sourced from us. If I was to make a mistake and the company was to stop trading for a period of time, those lifesaving drugs would not make it the patients.
5.5 million asthma patients would suffer - some may die, because they would not be able to get hold of life saving ventolin etc. Sterile water for hospitals would be unavailable, there would be not enough morphine for operations - so that person requiring emergency heart surgery would not be able to ave the op and may die. the list goes on...
This is a worse case scenario, but it is an example, that it is not just the people in the front line that affect peoples lives.
What would happen if the I.T "bods" maintaining the computer systems supporting the emergency servcies walked out. I expect that the time for a call out would increase dramatically and potentially people could lose their lives because of the delay.
Most corporations couldn't function these days without computers, because they have built their organisations around I.T. so if the I.T staff went on a national strike, the country would grind to a halt.
But that goes for a lot of people, not just I.T. What would happen if the men running powerstations went on strike.... water sanitation plants etc. What would happen if the people maintaining railways went on strike. THe trains would still run, then one of them would crash.
It seems that some people are sneering at other peoples vocations on this board. Which is not constructive.
I asked some questions and repeated comments from the Media, and MarkH has answered and he has put those points straight and I concur that they do need a payrise. It has been found in a report in Essex, that people need to be earning at least 20K a year to be able to buy a house and that figure will rise to 27K a year. So with those points alone, the FF's need a rise. But so do a lot of other people. Nurses etc.
The money has to come somewhere, so to distribute the extra taxes fairly, would you be happy in an increase in Tax on Fuel / Cigarettes? Because that is what the government would tax to get the required funds.
This is a question to everyone on the board.
Would you be prepared to pay more taxes, to pay for a "Fair" increase in pay for Nurses and FF's.
My only gripe is that I don't believe striking is the answer. It will ultimately end with a decrease in public support.
And sniping at other vocations isn't the answer either.
AshT_200
17-11-2002, 10:49
And one final thing, if it wasn't for I.T. people, this website wouldn't exist.:p:D
I would not be happy with an increase in tax to fund the payrises. I would however be perfectly happy for the tax's we already pay to be utilised more efficiently and distributed to the people who earn it and not the multitude of NHS managers, hangers on and the such like who not only waste the money by being uneccesary but by adding to peoples daily work load by adding more and more paperwork just to justify themselves.
We already pay too much tax.
MarkH Maybe that figure of 20-30% represents just how much better off the firebrigade is than the armed forces!
Rob
AshT_200
17-11-2002, 11:36
Originally posted by robchopper50
I would however be perfectly happy for the tax's we already pay to be utilised more efficiently and distributed to the people who earn it and not the multitude of NHS managers, hangers on and the such like who not only waste the money by being uneccesary but by adding to peoples daily work load by adding more and more paperwork just to justify themselves.
Being realistic tho, that isn't going to happen.
SteveCarter200
17-11-2002, 11:40
Ash, my comments werent meant as snipe against IT employees or industry.
Partly it was a response to someones comment that the country would grind to a halt without them. This is true but as you have correctly stated the same would happen if many other industries decided to stop working. I was just making the point that IT is not more important than any other industry in the grand scheme of things and therefore perhaps not worth anymore pay than others (education and training aside, obviously this has to be accounted for). If the van drivers that delivered the medical equipment that you supply decided to strike the situation would be exactly the same as if you decided to strike.
The other point I was making was to those who have griped about the FFs not actively fighting fires, attending crashes, etc for all of their shifts. Because this BB has a high percentage of people from the IT industry and the amount of time that this BB is frequented by them I just thought I would point out that maybe they arent exactly working for 100% of their shifts either.
Obviously this is the same for many other jobs as well. Basically some jobs allow for a bit of 'personal time':) and other have down time as an intrinsic part of the shift. The railway signalling department, that I used to work on, had exactly this if you were on faulting cover. You are at the depot for 12 hours but if there are no faults then theres no work. On the other hand you could be out in the cold/rain/snow for all of the shift. Its just the way it goes. There will always be perks of the job.
People can always moan about the perks of others jobs. "Oh you are so lucky, you get to work outside in the sun during the summer" or "Oh you are so lucky you get to work in a heated office during the winter".
So to conclude, there is no point mentioning work practices when considering pay, its the value (and dare I say it, personal risk) of the job that you do that matters.
I agree unfortunately Ash, But you see my point. We pay more in Tax than any other country and yet it gets more and more every year!
Unacceptable in my opinion to raise Tax so that the first in what seems to be a long line of ppl who dont think they get enough money can get a pay rise! Have you noticed how many mini strikes have been threatened etc since this all came about?
Rob
AshT_200
17-11-2002, 13:30
Originally posted by SteveCarter200
So to conclude, there is no point mentioning work practices when considering pay, its the value (and dare I say it, personal risk) of the job that you do that matters.
Ok,
I agree with some of what you have said,
Where are used to work in Harlow, I frequently had to get suited up to fix PCs in a Level 3 Biocontainment Lab. I had a piped into suit airsupply, and the suit and a a window and the door of a refrigeration system was all that separated me between some really nasty pathogens.
But I got paid the same as any other I.T. desktop support.
My personal risk was far higher than most other I.T. people, but as you have said, that's the way it goes.
But my value was calculated against the Market Rate, not against any risk involved.
However,
If the van drivers that delivered the medical equipment that you supply decided to strike the situation would be exactly the same as if you decided to strike.
Not so really, it would be far easier and to get someone else to drive a van, the Army for arguments sake than to replace someone who's knowledge about a particular computer system is vital.
P.S. I am at work today, and am only spending time on the BB when I am waiting for the server to finish one of its processes. :)
Nothing against the strike. But your UNION has, I believe, done a naff job over the last few years and now it expects a 40% rise to make up?
Can you imagine every government service demanding 40%?
It would bring the country to it's knee's..and then bankrupt it.
You might get your payrise but the tax hike we'd see would swallow most of that up.
I know your plight though, I was going to join Lancashire fire service, halfway through selection realised just how bad the pay was, even after reasonable length of service.
Can you honestly expect 40% though?
Long term increase is the only sensible way forward. Do you know of any long term strike actions that have been succesful??
Your just slashing your own income and putting peoples lives at risk.
Nathan_200sx
17-11-2002, 17:22
Originally posted by SteveCarter200
I have already made a comment in the other thread about the worth and pay of firefighters compared to IT peeps which was answered by the comment that the country would fall apart if all the IT workers went on strike.
Now this may be true but there would be no casualties due to a lack of IT personnel.
Sorry steve but people would die, you generalised with the IT tag so I capatilised on it. lets say all IT bods decided to announce a 24 hour strike next thursday, for a start there would ba a major threat to security systems, air traffic controll, traffic systems, hospitals, goverment, I know for a fact that if I turned off one platform we look after a large population of the deaf community would not be able to make an emrgancy call in there usual way. national grid, power plants, police computers, hell alot of things these days rely on IT. remember the panic over Y2K? it was only due to alot of hard work that things didnt go tits up. What would have happend if we had sat back and said screw you were not touching a thing?
It may not be glamourus and I dont risk my life but we still make an important contribution to this country. Not just my proffession either, while I belive FF deserve more I dont agree with stike action, it's bad for the image of the strikers and it encourages the down tools brigade to stop at the drop of a hat.
I personaly as a member of the puplic was unaware of how bad the situation was, if I had like many others known, you would have the biggest threat to the goverment on your side...Massive puplic support.
And on an end note therese no point in a fireman cutting someone out of a car if the paramedics arnt there, as would the paramedics job be hamperd a tad if they had no where to take the patient, takes a big team effort to save a life like that with each one depending on the other, not forgetting the IT bod who calibrated the machine that goes ping ;). This is no way a dig at you mark just the person who thought you chop em out and thats it life saved, sort of sounded belittling to all the other hard working underpaid services who help. Im sure you understand what I mean, recognition and praise can boost moral no end.
Ok this realy is a final note, what makes me realy mad is that the goverment has brought it on itself by wasting and squandering money left right and centre on failed projects, fact finding missions, leaflets to new dads, outreach centers for blind lesbian crack addicted horses and other such wonderfull idea's. If the had spent the money via practicle increases per year for all the services we wouldnt be in the mess where in know. They still havent learnt either, they claim they spend millions on the NHS but 70% goes to management and fund there Fact findin........yeah you've heard it all before.:rolleyes:
DOCTOR: Scalpel
NURSE: Scalpel
DOCTOR: I think we're losing him, get him connected to "the machine that goes ping"
:D :D
SteveCarter200
18-11-2002, 11:23
Nathan,
Yeah, OK, I was generalising. I take it back. People would die if IT workers in certain industries went on strike. But only in certain industries.
If IT workers employed in the insurance/ retail/ motor businesses went on strike there wouldnt be any casualties as a result.
AshT_200
18-11-2002, 11:47
Originally posted by SteveCarter200
If IT workers employed in the insurance businesses went on strike there wouldnt be any casualties as a result.
There would when I go and kick their f*@!ing arses because my claim hasn't gone through ;) :p :D
And if as was said on another thread about this, If the Supermarkets shut down cos of the computers being down, you'd starve.
Nathan_200sx
18-11-2002, 13:19
Originally posted by AshT_200
And if as was said on another thread about this, If the Supermarkets shut down cos of the computers being down, you'd starve.
I wouldnt, just BBQ next doors cat's
:D ;)
Steve, not all firefighter fight fire. some of them sit behind desks as well :p anyway if I was a fireman I'd be wanting to know why my union had let things get so bad that the whole fire service had to walk out against there own will. Oh I know to busy chatting to sadam to care about his union duties:mad:
Hi,
Been busy for a while!
Anyway, there are a lot of people talking about nurses doctors, army, IT people:confused:
The FF's can't explain why they don't/won't strike all we can say is that we are striking because for what we do our pay is not realisitc, or liveable on!
Ash what you do to save peoples lives is from the comfort of a desk/chemical bag suit, where the risks are predetermined and buffered against!
Ours aren't!
How many fireman die a year against, policman (paid a lot more than us anyway), fishermen/rac men, I don't know.
But when I visited NYFD in september, the station I visited lost 15 FF's out of 60 in total and had just received a visit from their
station counsellor! These guys were suffering from PTSD and it is common for many FF's in the UK as well, to run into a burning building is not good for your psychological welfare. But thats OK we will put up with the **** pay because we knew what we were getting into when we joined:confused:
Mark
AshT_200
20-11-2002, 10:55
Originally posted by MarkH
Ash what you do to save peoples lives is from the comfort of a desk/chemical bag suit, where the risks are predetermined and buffered against!
Ours aren't!
I was under the impression that if FF's didn't predetermine the risk of a Burning building and buffer against them, then not only are they putting themselves at risk, but they're colleagues as well. Pretty Stupid to run into a burning building without sussing it first IMHO. But then, that is what your training is supposed to tell you.
As for my chemical suit, one thing that is always on your mind is the risk of a small hole in the suit and being contaminated. I don't do it now, but you're never calm wen you walk into one of those places.
So what if I work from a desk, so do a lot of people in the Fire Service, doesn't make us any less important.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by AshT_200
[B]
I was under the impression that if FF's didn't predetermine the risk of a Burning building and buffer against them, then not only are they putting themselves at risk, but they're colleagues as well. Pretty Stupid to run into a burning building without sussing it first IMHO. But then, that is what your training is supposed to tell you
Wrong when peoples lives are at risk there is very little risk assesment that tales place, the usual procedure is to adopt a snatch rescue where Breathing Apparatus isn't even worn.
Because the two mins, it takes to put on BA can cost someone their Life!
Mark
AshT_200
20-11-2002, 12:42
Originally posted by MarkH
[QUOTE]Originally posted by AshT_200
[B]
Wrong when peoples lives are at risk there is very little risk assesment that tales place, the usual procedure is to adopt a snatch rescue where Breathing Apparatus isn't even worn.
Because the two mins, it takes to put on BA can cost someone their Life!
Mark
Then to me, you're not only putting your life at risk and you're colleagues, the victims are being put at risk also.
Just my perception.
The bread and butter fire where there is a rescue, is usually in the middle of the night, in a normal dwelling stlye house.
One or Two FF's enter the house and search for the Casualty/casualties, and gather information. While two other crew members get rigged in BA outside the property.
Bigger Fires there is usually more procedural risk assesment!
The main risks to the public in those situations are, smoke inhalation and burns. Both of which kill in Minutes! The risk assesment is put on hold because, if you spent one or two minutes assessing and using every procedure. The member of the public would be dead!
The current policy of the London Fire Brigade is, 'We will risk our lives greatly to save life'
Maybe you should ask for the facts before you form an opinion!
AshT_200
20-11-2002, 15:15
Originally posted by MarkH
Maybe you should ask for the facts before you form an opinion!
I wasn't stating facts, just an opinion.
Mark, if you've read my previous posts, I said that I support your requests for better pay.
One of the problems you guys have been having over this is misinformation,
It was an Essex Firefighter on TV who said that the FBU blocked Paramedic training.
Maybe if the real facts were broadcast, you'd get more support.
I spent four years as a life guard, not the same i know but i was also taught in that time that you cant help someone if your dead and you just cause more problems cause its one more body to get. Its a noble sentiment (we'll risk our life greatly to save yours) but a bit macho and would an extra minute or two make a difference in a large fire because once in you would have more time to do your job. Im probobly being a bit ignorant but if i die i die the last thing i would want is for someone trying to save me to die just because of a minute or two extra preperation.
Rob
Originally posted by MarkH
Bigger Fires there is usually more procedural risk assesment!
Rob I was talking about house fires, not larger fires!
Ash,
The media is a law unto themselves and even the most powerful people cannot control them, as for the Essex fireman making a mistake, well we are only human!
Mark
AshT_200
20-11-2002, 18:34
Originally posted by MarkH
Ash,
The media is a law unto themselves and even the most powerful people cannot control them
My sentiments exactly :)
Pauly_Boy
20-11-2002, 19:34
Is it not possible to get kitted up in the fire engine?
Yes partially,
But officially no, it is not allowed under health and safety!
Even if you do get partially rigged it takes a minute or two to start up the face mask, etc, once you get to a fire!
Mark
AshT_200
21-11-2002, 11:53
Originally posted by MarkH
Yes partially,
But officially no, it is not allowed under health and safety!
Even if you do get partially rigged it takes a minute or two to start up the face mask, etc, once you get to a fire!
Mark
Does the Health and Safety rule allow you to run into a burning / smoke filled building without the proper gear?
It was the Health and Safety rules that provided the buffering I had in the lab.
Just having my say here.
For all who think 40% is too much consider this. If the fire fighters went in asking for 20% then the goverment would offer 5%. I think they have done the right thing by asking for so much then a compromise can be reached at a reasonable level say 25% or more. I personaly think they deserve 40% as they save lifes !!!!!! they are as has been said every day hero's
I agree this goverment has screwed things up they cant afford to pay for the services that really matter.
But they have shot themselves in the foot as I certainly wont be voting for them again taking into account the firemen NHS, schools etc.. its a JOKE beyond beleif. Take a tip from the french and get what you want lads!!!!
AshT_200
21-11-2002, 17:15
Originally posted by twarren
But they have shot themselves in the foot as I certainly wont be voting for them again taking into account the firemen NHS, schools etc.. its a JOKE beyond beleif. Take a tip from the french and get what you want lads!!!!
What you mean a Tory Govt. Prime Minister IDS?:eek:
It doesnt mater who you vote for... Tax's go up, figures are manipulated to prove to us that everything is ok and scandals occur. the only difference is the colour and that is why there is su much apathy at voting time. The gov't are bargaining so hard cause if they agree to a hefty pay rise out of their coffers then everybody will be striking for their peice if the pie.
Everybody is important in one way or another but not all people are equal. I wonder who will be next to strike?:(
Rob
Ok Ash,
You seem to want to know the ins and outs of a ducks arrse?
But that is your perogative as I said i would answer everyones questions!
The unofficial truth is we don the sets en route to an Incident usually, if we are told it is a fire.
We do not start the sets up i.e. start air flowing by putting the facemasks on, because the wearers might get to the scene and have to put a ladder up or some other task that would be hindered by wearing a mask!
The health and safety executive, don't have to drag out dead children from a fire and have the fact if they didn't do everything by the book, they might be alive!
'Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools'
Mark
Pauly_Boy
21-11-2002, 19:18
True, procedures are often a load of crap!
Also, isn't it true that FF's pay actually comes from the local govenments budget, raised through council taxes. I think what you have now been offered is fair, which takes a london FF's wage to £28k :eek:
shadowninja
21-11-2002, 19:41
As I don't think anything I say will change anyone's mind... I just have one question. Is it true that the first pole dancer was a female fire fighter messing around during her break? :D
Martin T
22-11-2002, 10:43
Whilst I agree that you firefighters do a great job and I support your fight for a pay rise, I do not support 8 day strikes when you can make your point with 24 hour ones. Even 48 is pushing it. Personally I think the pay should go up to a max of £25000 for a basic firefighter plus £5000 london weighting. That gives you more than twice what I am currently getting in IT(lack of work).
One more thing - you cannot argue the risk. Of the 50,000 firefighters in the UK, 27 have died in either the last 10 or 15 years. More IT people have died on their way to work than that.
I respect the fact that you generally are heroic individuals, but the "hero" factor of a job should have nothing to do with pay. If it has, then you're not a hero - your just doing a job. The hero factor I think is a perk of the job.
I hope people that read this get what I intended to mean, not something that sounds insulting.
AshT_200
22-11-2002, 14:22
Originally posted by MarkH
Ok Ash,
You seem to want to know the ins and outs of a ducks arrse?
But that is your perogative as I said i would answer everyones questions!
The unofficial truth is we don the sets en route to an Incident usually, if we are told it is a fire.
We do not start the sets up i.e. start air flowing by putting the facemasks on, because the wearers might get to the scene and have to put a ladder up or some other task that would be hindered by wearing a mask!
The health and safety executive, don't have to drag out dead children from a fire and have the fact if they didn't do everything by the book, they might be alive!
'Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools'
Mark
I fully agree with you Mark, just you seemd to be having a dig because I worked behind a desk / bio suit and was saying I was buffered.
All I pointed out was that the buffering was provided by H&S rules, that also are there to provide you buffering. Whether you choose to abide by the rules is up to you.
I'm not going to say any more on the matter.
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