View Full Version : Do you support the fire strikes?
Its looks a certainly there are going to be a series of 48hr strikes...do you support them?
Do the forces get cover from the firemen when they go to war then? Don't get me wrong the do a sterling job riskin their lives and all but I don't think they should resort to this over pay. The forces cover is FAR from good.
As a student of Politics, I respect their democratic right to protest by strike.
However, I do not support a strike of this magntitude because of the danger to the general public. Which I think has cost them a huge amount of public support.
But, I still agree with them, because their pay scale is shockingly appalling. The farce surrounding this is typical of the arrogant swaggering attitude of the Labour administration, and further proof, as if it were needed that a monopoly government is extremely bad for the health of the country and it citizens
Supraman1
13-11-2002, 17:48
I agree it's wrong to put peoples lives at risk over money . . .but what alternative course of effective action do they have open to them other than striking?
They earn a lot more than I do already, but I know that they work a lot harder than me for it! I'm think their claims are a little excessive though . . . yes, they put their lives at risk, but the actual numbers of deaths and injuries on the job aren't all that high I believe.
If my house doesn't catch fire then yes I do support them, if it does catch fire then I shall be bloody pissed off that they were sat on their arses in a picket line rather than protecting my valuable property!
There's no way they should be potentially ending other peoples lives because they want more money in their pockets. It would be a different story if a friend or relative of a striking fire fighter was burning to death. They'd soon be back in their fire trucks then.
Dunc.
SteveCarter200
13-11-2002, 18:12
Striking may not be the most popular way of getting pay rise but when they have only got this avenue of action left then they have to take it.
I doubt that there are many people on this BB who get paid as little as firemen. This morning on the TV it was said that they earn under £7/hour! Now compare that to what, for example (seeing as thers a lot of you here:)) , you IT bods earn for sitting in front of a computer tapping keys rather than running into burning buildings. I know who I consider being worth more money.
I know, my finger is realy acking this evening :p
I did vote Yes BTW.
Whilst I think it's irrifutable that their pay is appaling and they need a hefty pay rise there was never any way they were going to get 40% or anything like it in one year. The best they can hope for is that the government sees sense and gives them, say 10% this year and 10% next and the year after. The trouble is that if the governemtn do that then everyone who is underpaid in the public sector (teachers, nurses etc.etc.) will want the same and the govenment will have to raise taxes even more to accomodate this. The danger then is that we'll end up in an economic spiral as we were in the late 70s and early 80s.
So I suppose that I must reluctantly vote NO, wilst acknowledging that there is a problem which Mssrs Blair et al will have to address :(
sorry but i have to disagree completely here - no defo do not support strike action OR the kind of pay rise theyre after.
at the end of the day, they ALL knew of the bummin level of pay BEFORE they started training to be a Fireman..... why should they now be entitled to almost double??
And, with modern technology and training id argue their job has prolly become a lot safer (obv not safe, but safer) over the past few years - so therefore theres less need to pay em danger money!
add to this that "most" firemen (not saying all here) are not academically qualified in ANY way and received all of their training from the fire service as part of their wage what would the majority of them be doing if they werent firemen?????
then, spare a thought for the nurses etc - who have to go to college and uni for years to do what they do, and they do it out of love for the job, not for money - why cant firemen take a leaf out of their book?! Nurses are on cackier pay than all of us!!!
Dont get me wrong, im all for a fair days pay... but the way theyve gone about it is MERCENARY.. they obv care more about the money than the ppl theyre saving.
How many of us, if we went to our bosses and demanded a 40% pay rise, would get it? - even if we REALLY deserved it? Tell ya what, i think im severely underpaid for the amount of grief i take at work but then i dont go throwing a wobbly over it and storming out on strike.
Its not that i disrespect firemen.... they do a grand job and a difficult one too.... but dont expect any sympathy from me lads - you chose that career path, live with it or find another job!
Daniel san
13-11-2002, 19:04
Very bluntly, no don't support them at all.
In short, they knew the job particulars when they accepted it, which included the level of pay they would start on, stated at around £18K, rising to around £22K when fully qualified.
You can't accept a job and then when you've been there a year decide it's not enough and so hold the country to ransom for more pay.
Anyone else on here want a 40% rise???
Thought so!
Originally posted by Dan_BlitzedS14
Anyone else on here want a 40% rise???
Yes please but I'm afraid I'd have to declare my business bankrupt the next day :( :(
SteveCarter200
13-11-2002, 19:22
For those that dont support a pay rise for them, how much is it worth to you to be cut from the car you've just crashed at 100mph? Or rescued from a building thats on fire and theres no escape?
I can see what you are saying about them knowing the pay when they started the job but what about when they leave their jobs because the money is so bad, as you have suggested, and then no-one wants to replace them because the money is so bad. Afterall, would youdo their job for a takehome pay of about £800/ month?
This isnt just about now, its about the future as well.
dont get me wrong steve - as i said, im all for a fair day's pay...its not that im saying they dont deserve more money - im not informed enough to know either way whether they do or not - but what i am saying is that its a completely irresponsible and mercenary way of going about it - what happens to the poor ol chap sitting dying in his car wreck tonight then?
and furthermore, i bet half of them joined the brigade because of a love for saving ppls lives, not for the money they got paid to do it - pity they cant show that kind of commitment now.
what im saying is, if you dont like the job, then hand in ur notice and get another one - dont go putting lives at risk just cos you cant have it all your own way. There are thousands and thousands of ppl out there applying to be firemen and also thousands of "relief" firemen that would prolly jump at havin the job full time - let them take over if the existing firemen continue to have an attitude.
Don't the nurses also deserve a 40% pay rise? If the firefighters get their way it could pave the way for strike accross other public services because they know the government will back down - leading the higher taxes etc...
I'm not saying they aren't worth a pay rise, they probably are...but we'd all love a 40% payrise but we understand the fact that we never going to get it.
The government offered 11% - the vast majority of organisation rarely go over the rate of inflation (circa 1.5-2.5%) for their hourly paid employees.
Pauly_Boy
13-11-2002, 19:40
Don't they actually only work a 35 hour week, and many actually have second jobs partically to get more money, but the fact that they have such a short week has a bearing on this.
If they do do 35 hours a week, it works out at 1820 hours a year, which at £20000 a year, works out at almost £11. Have i gone wrong somewhere :confused:
Anyway, 11% is enough as it is, 40% is just plain gready! imagen someone getting paid £30k up north where u can buy a house for £70k.
I think if there is a rise, it should be more heavierly weighted towards the south and london. But at the end of the day, the govenment can't afford it!
Originally posted by Pauly_Boy
Don't they actually only work a 35 hour week...
Yes... ish. it vary's with the frequency of call outs but that's about the average i think.
Think of the Forces people who are TOLD they have to go out and fight fires etc who are now working some 60 hour weeks to cover, as well as going to the Gulf, Afghanistan, Kuwait and the likes every other month. They don't get any increases for covering all the public services strikes? Flood defences? Burning Infested Cows and sheep? preventing invasion?
Okay i'm a bit bias but there you go:rolleyes:
aka-coley
13-11-2002, 20:25
when these people applied and got the job as firemen, were they not aware of the pay???? did things suddenly change?? no!! look at the facts, they work 4 days on and 3 off, 2 of those shifts are night shifts, which normally consists of sleep! so in theory they get paid a decent wage (better than me by a long shot) for 2 1/2 days work. most of them have other jobs aswell so are already earning large salaries.
to put peoples lives at risk over pathetic ludicrous pay demands is sick, just imagine if the government did give in to there demands, next we would have the police, nurses and everyone else who wants the same deal, and the result? we pay ****ing loads more tax!! and the country is always coming to a standstill. just imagine a member of your family dies over the next 2 nights in a fire or traffic accident, will people be so sympathetic then? they have been offered a substantial pay rise ( a hell of a lot better than 99% of you got this year i am sure) with the condition they actually increase there workload, but it was rejected, they want money for nothing! i could agree if they wanted say a 10% increase but no 40% how can the country sustain that sort of increase as every other work sector will strike aswell if the government give in (which they wont). and give a thought for the members of our armed forces who are going to do there job for them, who earn a pathetic wage in comparison, are there lives not worth as much as a firefighter?? trade unions ruined our economy in the 70's this government wont take the same sh*t!
aka-coley
13-11-2002, 20:33
and working in the fire service isnt even one of the 5 most dangerous jobs in the country! more tree surgeons are hurt working than firefighters! i agree that they do a great job, and i am thankful for them being there, but the trade unionists are living in a dreamworld with there demands, and most firefighters would rather work than strike, but are having to strike to stick together. i hope the government stake a strong line on this, peoples lives are at risk and people will die as a result, and no ones life is that worthless
tim rome
13-11-2002, 21:18
Originally posted by MrMidgers
Do the forces get cover from the firemen when they go to war then? Don't get me wrong the do a sterling job riskin their lives and all but I don't think they should resort to this over pay. The forces cover is FAR from good.
the forces are better looked after. speaking as an ex serviceman from the royal signals every soldier is given accomodation, even married ones are provided with quarters at really cheap rents this is not so with firemen, my humble home is a 3 bed terrace last valued at 180,000 quid how can a fireman afford to live round here. as a soldier i wasnt earning as much as a fireman during peace time but as soon as we were mobilised into places ie falklands, bosnia, gulf we were paid danger money and our food and accomodation was provided for free and which ever country we served in we were given an enhanced wage to be able to live it up to the same standard as the local population, ie loads of dosh when serving in europe. i could go on for ages but that s enough for now,
ps i think 40% is way over the top but double figures for first year isnt too much
Yep, I support them striking. I think they do a great job and should get paid a decent salary for it. Obviously they knew what the pay was when they joined, doesn't make it right though.
The Gov has cut the funding and staffing levels in the Fire Service year after year. Yeah they "only" work 35 hours per week, but they could spend an entire shift going from one fire to the next. Also these are also the guys ( and gals ) who clean up all the crap after car crashes and stuff. Have you ever seen Nurses, Teachers etc out with collection buckets trying to riase more funding - that is how dire the situation is with the FS.
Personally I'd be prepared to pay the extra £2 a year for a better service. And yes, Nurses, Teachers etc also deserve more pay ( so make that an extra £10 ), but this poll is about the Fire Fighters.
Listening to the news this morning there were 2 incidents reported where Fire Fighters crossed a picket line to help members of the public who were in serious danger. I really don't think they'd just say "Feck you lot, we want more money and we don't give a stuff who suffers".
dave_s13
14-11-2002, 10:34
A fire fighters working week (in West Yorkshire) goes like this:-
2 x 9 hour days
2 x 12 hour nights
4 days off
= 42 hour shifts
When not on a shout or doing community based fire prevention work the time is spent training (physical and job related stuff) and doing admin.
The level of pay demanded is like any business deal you aim high and settle somewhere near, you never pay the price in the window do you??
There's not been enough info on how this new salary will be scaled, everyone seems to thinkan award of 30k means every qualified fire fighter in the UK will earn this much money. I don't reckon this will be the case.
Firefighter ranks go like this
Sub-Officer
Leading Fire Fighter
Fire Fighter
Trainee Fire Fighter
30k should be the salary foir the Sub officer who has the responsibility of directing operations at the station for his watch with the salary decreasing as you go down the pecking order.
I think their salary will be brought up to be in line with the Police, everyone thinks Police get a decent wage, they do but it takes 15 years to get there. a PC wage tops at about 27.5k BTW.
As far as other sectors moaning about pay, my Gf's a teacher (head of year 10) she has to work hard but earns just a bit less than a PC on the full wack.
My Sisters' a teacher, she works in Japan and earns about £70k a year (not really a good example though).
My mums' a Nurse and she earns a few grand more than a firefighter.
No-one says jack about the fuking bastid MP's when they get 40% and I bet thats NOT 40% of fek all either.
Nathan_200sx
14-11-2002, 11:58
Originally posted by SteveCarter200
you IT bods earn for sitting in front of a computer tapping keys rather than running into burning buildings. I know who I consider being worth more money.
if all IT people stopped for a day the country would bankrupt! and that would just be the tip of the iceburg. You cant compare them together, ones a service and ones an industry, industry makes money services spend it.
Surprise suprise I dont support the strike either, mainly on what its for..... %40. I cant belive theyre preperd to walk out on what is obviously a no deal. If the goverment bow in who's gonna step up next? the dustmen? after all they get up early and put in there lions share to the community. where would it stop, how would you feel when your paying 70p in the pound tax because social workers decided they realy should be paid 100,000 a year.
Originally posted by SteveCarter200
For those that dont support a pay rise for them, how much is it worth to you to be cut from the car you've just crashed at 100mph?
Should have thought of that before driving a car at 100mph without either the skill or the margin for error then...
Ohh flame me...
As for the firemen... drove past them in Brighton last night, hooted and waved to them. Good for them for standing up for themselves.
HOWEVER... 40pc with nothing given back in return in terms of modernisation? Pah.
And as for the govt "seeing sense and giving them 10pc", they've offered 11pc - which has been rejected...
I'm sorry, but I don't support a 40pc rise, they are at about 8.50/hour already aren't they? And as so many of you have said, where will this money come from? Taxes...
What is really funny is that the Turdy party are saying the govt should get this sorted and fix everything, but they wouldn't raise taxes themselves to fix it. Double standards.
While I'm on the soap box, watched the opening of COmmons yesterday. IDS - what a tw@t. "Ohh, the trains aren't running on time" - that's coz your party sold them off you bald fkwit. Why should the govt be responisble for all of these private companies given leave to do what they want by Maggie Fkwit and her imbicilic policies? THat woman should have been drowned at birth.
Its all fk-ed up. No wonderppl are leaving this country. Bloody TOries.
Three elderly people died in separate housefires overnight in the first 12 hours of a national firefighters' strike. A 76-year-old woman died in a blaze at her mid-Wales home in one of the first incidents Army officers were called to in their ageing Green Goddess fire engines.
Firefighters left their picket line at the main fire station in Newtown and went to the woman's house after they saw a Green Goddess drive past, according to union sources.
Then, just before 10.30pm, officers were called to another house fire in Burnley, Lancs, which claimed the life of an elderly man.
Green goddesses
And an elderly man in the West Midlands became the third confirmed overnight house fire victim when officers were called to a flat in Halesowen just after 1am.
All three victims were rescued from their homes but were pronounced dead in hospital.
Despite their top speed of just 35mph, officials said the Green Goddesses arrived at the scene of the first two fatalities within minutes of receiving the call.
West Midlands Police were unable to confirm how long it took replacement fire officers to arrive at the latest house fire fatality
dave_s13
14-11-2002, 13:40
Thats nasty.....but would you have heard about these if there was no striike???? I think not.
Jeffers_S13
14-11-2002, 13:51
I DO NOT support the strike, they are asking for a BASE salary of around £30,000. This is absolutely absurd for an un-professional career ! I spent 5 years of my life at Uni to gain a degree to enable me to earn just part of that salary, it will be years before I get £30,000 either through rises and job moves and improving my skill level. I am also in debt to the hilt as students are no longer entitled to a reasonable grant.
As said before, they knew what the pay structure was before they joined and I would expect they knew they'd be dealing with dangerous fires and risking there lives...and when they retire they get some cushy pension scheme, no wonder then that there are over 40 applicants for every fire position.
The details about people losing their lives, it is being used as a way of making the tax paying public feel guilty to the extent that they will say 'oh just give them the payrise'. This is the responsibility of the fire crews and I hope THEY feel tremendous guilt for it, whilst they stand around moaning. It should be made illegal for these people to strike just as it is for air traffic controllers.
I voted NO. :mad:
dave_s13
14-11-2002, 14:05
Originally posted by Jeffers_S13
This is absolutely absurd for an un-professional career
Its not un-proffesional m8!!! Its takes 2 years of intensive training to become a firefighter. What you don't need is Academic qualifications thats all. You don't for the police either.
[i]The details about people losing their lives, it is being used as a way of making the tax paying public feel guilty to the extent that they will say 'oh just give them the payrise'. [/B]
The tax paying public have no say in what happens.
I'll bet any money that these people would still be dead even if there was no strike, its just we'll all be hearing about every fire related incident while there's a strike going on.
If anything the stories in the press are there to make you feel that the Firefighters are a set of heartless thugs who just don't care.....it seems to be working. IMO.
I think people need to stop being so outraged by the %40 increase figure. Lets see what actually happens and what rise is actually awarded before being so anti-fireservice.
Jeffers_S13
14-11-2002, 14:13
Originally posted by dave_s13
Its not un-proffesional m8!!! Its takes 2 years of intensive training to become a firefighter.
It prolly takes 2 yrs to get all your stars at McDonalds that doesnt make it professional, any job requires training. This is a base salary they want, not a progressive increase like you may get in the police force or any other career. The increased salary will have a knock on effect for the pension schemes aswell, higher salaries means a higher pension pay out when they retire as I believe its based on their final salary.
Jeffers_S13
14-11-2002, 14:16
Originally posted by dave_s13
The tax paying public have no say in what happens.
In the short term solution no, if the non-thinking public opinion is swayed whichever way by the media, the final decision made by the government will affect their future in power. If they go against the voting publics feelings then they potentially lose.
Interesting reading:
Salary Scales:
Firefighter aged 18 on entry £16,941 after 6 months £17,727-Rising to (5th Year) £21,531
Leading Firefighter £23,055-£24,006 After 15 years service
Sub Officer £23,643-£25,503 After 15 years service
Station Officer £27,426-£29,577 After 15 years service
Assistant Divisional Officer £28,908-£31,605 After 15 years service
Divisional Officer Grade lll £30,960-£33,198 After 15 years service
Divisional Officer Gradell £32,874-£36,447 After 15 years service
Divisional Officer Grade l £36,312-£38,928 After 15 years service
Add 40% to these salaries and everyone will be trying to join the fire service, the requirements ? LOL !
To join the Fire Service, there are certain physical, medical, and educational requirements you will have to satisfy.
Be aged over 18
Have good eyesight
Have a good level of all-round fitness
Take both general written and practical tests.
Why the hell did I go into Engineering when at 18 I could maybe have been dossing around for 2 yrs after maybe failing all my GCSE's and then started on nearly £17K :eek:
These salaries are more than adequate IMHO.
dave_s13
14-11-2002, 14:25
Here's a more acurate info of FF pay scales
Whole-Time Fire Fighters
Fire-fighter £16,941 on entry per annum
rising to (5th Year) £21,531
Leading fire-fighter £23,055 - £24,006
Sub Officer £23,643 - £25,503
Station Officer £27,426 - £29,577
Assistant Divisional Officer £28,908 - £31,605
Divisional Officer III £30,960 - £33,198
Divisional Officer II £32,874 - £36,447
Divisional Officer I £36,312 - £39,928
Senior Divisional Officer £39,090 - £42,168
Assistant County Fire Officer Receive varying rates of pay.
I agree that 30k for a Fire fighter is high, it seems to me that the FBU are aiming high in order to get something reasonable.
It looks to me like the scale should be knocked up a peg for each level of experience so that 30k should be the pay for a Sub-Officer and so on. Now that seems more than fair to me.
In the short term solution no,
I am thinking of the short term but I always vote Lib dem or crazy loony party anyway, it don't matter who's in charge they're all w@nkers.
Jeffers_S13
14-11-2002, 14:36
Originally posted by dave_s13
it don't matter who's in charge they're all w@nkers.
Agreed :D
dave_s13
14-11-2002, 14:38
Originally posted by Jeffers_S13
Add 40% to these salaries and everyone will be trying to join the fire service, the requirements ? LOL !
IF they get 40%..., then start complaining.
Like I've already said, I don't think it'll happen. There just starting high to get something half decent.
I don't think you appreciate what it takes to get into the Fireservice in the first place, I've been trying for over a year and not even got an application form yet!!!
Originally posted by Jeffers_S13
Why the hell did I go into Engineering when at 18 I could maybe have been dossing around for 2 yrs after maybe failing all my GCSE's and then started on nearly £17K :eek:
These salaries are more than adequate IMHO.
I agree with Jeffers 100%, I PAID MYSELF through 4 years of engineering degree just to recently get a job of a wage that I could have easily equalled through 4 years in the fire service.
You don't see me demanding a 40% pay increase, I'd get the sack and that would be the end of that. And quite rightly so.
Dunc.
BTW, I also agree with the "all goverment are w@nkers" bit :D
dave_s13
14-11-2002, 14:56
Lifes $hit like that though!!!
One of my mates did a 2 year printing Btec......he's on nearly 50k a year!!!! Bastid.
Yeah, you "design engineers" and others stuck in offices (me included) don't seem to realise these people risk their lives to save ours on a daily basis. Just becuase you spent 4 years studying, and these guys didn't doesn't make you better than they are. Your diploma isn't going to save you if your house is on fire and your trapped upstairs, or you're trapped in your car in a multiple car pileup on the motorway somewhere, slowly bleeding to death. One mistake for them isn't going to delete the excel worksheet you've been working on, it could well cost someone their LIFE!:mad: I know 40% seems excessive, but 21k after 5 years service doesn't seem a lot. I'm presuming there's a x% increase for firefighters in the south? I doubt they'll get it too, but 11% over 2 years wasn't really fair either. They've been backed in to a corner, so what was the alternative?
Ok, rant over :p
Nathan_200sx
14-11-2002, 17:07
Originally posted by Fizzy
Yeah, you "design engineers" and others stuck in offices (me included) don't seem to realise these people risk their lives to save ours on a daily basis. Just becuase you spent 4 years studying, and these guys didn't doesn't make you better than they are. Your diploma isn't going to save you if your house is on fire and your trapped upstairs, or you're trapped in your car in a multiple car pileup on the motorway somewhere, slowly bleeding to death. One mistake for them isn't going to delete the excel worksheet you've been working on, it could well cost someone their LIFE!:mad: I know 40% seems excessive, but 21k after 5 years service doesn't seem a lot. I'm presuming there's a x% increase for firefighters in the south? I doubt they'll get it too, but 11% over 2 years wasn't really fair either. They've been backed in to a corner, so what was the alternative?
Ok, rant over :p
My wife spent 4 years studying to gain a degree, and still has progressive training. she has to lift heavy objects as the new rules say they cant use the old lifts & hoists, she gets verbal abuse and has to take it, the other week a nut case went wild where they worked and kicked the crap out of one of her co workers, she gets paid slightley more than a new entry fireman even though she has been in the job for 4 years sometimes working 2 weeks back to back with 14hour shifts included in there. if you havent guessed she's a Nurse who cannot strike and even if they could it wouldnt be for money but for better conditions. And before someone says it aint a dangerus job, you try spending 6 months with someone waiting for HIV results after a needle stick injury, as for casulty that place if fukin brutal.
Im not knockin the fireservice, it the bloody unions who always seem to cock up, this time they've realy scewed it up for the people they are meant to represent.
Jeffers_S13
14-11-2002, 17:19
Originally posted by Fizzy
Yeah, you "design engineers" and others stuck in offices (me included) don't seem to realise these people risk their lives to save ours on a daily basis. Just becuase you spent 4 years studying, and these guys didn't doesn't make you better than they are. Your diploma isn't going to save you if your house is on fire and your trapped upstairs, or you're trapped in your car in a multiple car pileup on the motorway somewhere, slowly bleeding to death. One mistake for them isn't going to delete the excel worksheet you've been working on, it could well cost someone their LIFE!:mad: I know 40% seems excessive, but 21k after 5 years service doesn't seem a lot. I'm presuming there's a x% increase for firefighters in the south? I doubt they'll get it too, but 11% over 2 years wasn't really fair either. They've been backed in to a corner, so what was the alternative?
Ok, rant over :p
The fact they risk their lives comes with the territory, thats the nature of the job, thats what they are trained for, thats what they are paid for and thats why we all pay tax for the privilege of having them come and cut us out of our cars or rescue us from our burning house. Im an engineer, thats what Im qualified as and thats what I am paid to do, trying to be-little what someone does doesnt make for a sensible debate Im afraid, playing on computer games (which is obviously what IT Engineers do all day :rolleyes: ) doesnt, a good point, make.
Obviously you cant put a price on peoples life as anyone would happily give all they possess to save a loved ones life. Its obviously therefore not feasible to base a salary structure on the amount of peoples lives you save in risking your own otherwise 99% of the population would be paid nothing. So the fact they save lives almost becomes irrelevant in determining a pay structure.
The simplest method of assessing their worth in terms of salary is by comparison with other job descriptions and through the type of skill level they have. I know little about the range of skills a modern day fire fighter has, Im sure its wide range but then there are a lot of jobs where a vast knowledge of the subject is important (like Engineering) hence the potential to earn more money as you gain experience. Its the fact that we see them exercising these skills that helps their argument and the fact that its a potentially dangerous job. I have a lot of bespoke skills but nobody except people in the same type of job would have any clue about them, but, like you say all us Design Engineers do is put numbers in spreadsheets :rolleyes: oh yeah, and design/develop the 'life saving' equipment the fire fighters, armed forces and medical world use on a daily basis to save peoples lives...hang on I want more money now.
Besides which, if the salaries are so bad why are there so many people trying to get into the fire service ?
Public Service Sector job, again they take a lot of crap for little cash (IMHO)
trying to be-little what someone does doesnt make for a sensible debate Im afraid
That's my point! Just becuse they didn't study for several years, doesn't make them unworthy of a decent salary. As I said, they risk their lives to save others, we don't. Surely that has to be worth some monetary value?
like you say all us Design Engineers do is put numbers in spreadsheets
Erm, if you read what I put, I didn't say that. I was using "you" as a generalisation to anyone with an office job reading my post. What I was trying to get across, incase you missed it :rolleyes: ,was that a mistake in their profession is a lot more serious than many other professions due to their responsibilities, that's all.
I think this country is just plain fcuked up.
Just coz you dont know Kirchoffs laws or Trig Functions does mean your job is unskilled. People say that firefighting aint as dangerous anymore and this may be the case, but just think of the mental strain these guys are under. Picture how you would feel busting your way into a burning building to find a baby in a cot burnt to a crisp :( or turn up at a RTA and find a biker decapitated by a 38 ton artic. Now i know someones gonna say they knew about this as well when they started but it dont make it any easier to take and no amount of money would make it acceptable. But before people say that firefighting is easy and takes no skill think again. I earn about 5K more than the average firefighter as a diesel engineer and i know where i would rather have my ass.
Didnt Mr Blair award himself a 40% pay rise recently, that was nice of him, the self righteous W***ER.
And on a final note ....
Footballers dont need any education but its ok for Mr Beckham and co to earn £40K A WEEK !!!!!!!!!!! for 90 minutes of footy :eek:
What the hell is going on !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
its ok for Mr Beckham and co to earn £40K A WEEK !!!!!!!!!!! for 90 minutes of footy
Eh? Where've you been? ;) It's more like £100k now! :mad:
Pauly_Boy
14-11-2002, 18:23
at the end of the day, a firefighter with 5 yrs expericance can earn the average national wage, with it only going higher. If you ask me, the money would be far better paying nurses, which is a far more skilled profestion.
In a word...no
Of course in an ideal world they should have more money, but then everyone would want more right?
I would have supported them but i think %40 is just taking the piss.
I can see this issue going on for a while, but if they do get their raise then im sure we will see others services striking. Then where is it all gonna finish?
They are an emergency service, thus i think its wrong to put peoples lives at risk over money.
Just my opinon.......
Jeffers_S13
15-11-2002, 08:19
Originally posted by Fizzy
That's my point! Just becuse they didn't study for several years, doesn't make them unworthy of a decent salary. As I said, they risk their lives to save others, we don't. Surely that has to be worth some monetary value?
Well thats prolly why with no qaulifications they can get paid nearly £18K when they are 18, I doubt there are many other jobs that pay that sort of money for somone with no academic qualifications. I believe this is more than fair, I havent missed the fact hey risk their lives, like I said thats the job, they surely knew that before they joined ? this isnt a risk that has just crept into the job. Putting a value on someones life isnt feasible, because the value of a life is immeasurable. They had a 3.9% payrise last year which IMHO is fair and more than I got and now they are offered a ludicrous 11% which they turned down !
Unfortunately they are paid as much as they are 'worth' in an economic sense because thats the sad way of the world and to replace a fire fighter isnt as difficult as replacing say a teacher or a nurse, the amount of training and education are incomparable. They risk their lives for a salary above what they may well have otherwise earned.
The best argument one of the strikers came up with other than 'we risk their lives' on TV was 'we've all got mortgages and kids to pay for' I wonder what how he thinks the rest of mortals cope, there are poeple supporting families on a lot less than firefighters earn, you have to live to your means and be realistic, we dont all earn the stupid salaries that frickin football players earn...thats another argument ! are they 'worth' £100,000 a week !? they dont risk their lives. This is the way of the world, its h!t, but we all get up every day and make the most of it.
dave_s13
15-11-2002, 08:50
This is my LAST post on this thread.
STOP FKIN BITCHIN ABOUT THE FIGURE OF 40%.
They will never get 40%, it looks like they will be awarded somewhere nearer 20% wich concurrs with what I've already suggested, thus:-
Fire-fighter £16,941 on entry per annum
rising to (5th Year) £21,531
Leading fire-fighter £23,055 - £24,006
Sub Officer £23,643 - £25,503
Station Officer £27,426 - £29,577
Assistant Divisional Officer £28,908 - £31,605
Divisional Officer III £30,960 - £33,198
Divisional Officer II £32,874 - £36,447
Divisional Officer I £36,312 - £39,928
Senior Divisional Officer £39,090 - £42,168
Assistant County Fire Officer Receive varying rates of pay.
I agree that 30k for a Fire fighter is high, it seems to me that the FBU are aiming high in order to get something reasonable.
It looks to me like the scale should be knocked up a peg for each level of experience so that 30k should be the pay for a Sub-Officer and so on. Now that seems more than fair to me.
For a Fire fighter to be earning between 25-27k is NOT and unreasonable salary.
Jeffers; you state that you know little about the skills required to be a firefighter, I think this is true of 99% of the non firefighting population and is why everyone seems to be turning against the strike action and the reasons behind it.
Have a read through this ite for some further info
http://www.30kfirepay2.co.uk/
My point is don't take it as read that the FF's will be getting 40% cos that won't happen. IMO.
Jeffers_S13
15-11-2002, 10:28
Just as 99% of the population dont know what an Engineer does, except their perception is blurred by the fact that a TV repair man and a washing machine repair man are now referred to as Engineers.
If the job is so hard and the pay so bad why did they join ? and why are so many people trying to join ? If its a highly skilled job, then the Armed Forces wont have a frickin clue what they're doing when they are finally allowed to use the equipment, I suspect they will get on with it and this argument will be blown out of the water. Yes they develop their skills over their 30 year career, as does everyone. In the hypothetical situation where nurses and doctors strike I doubt people would be able to be drafted in and prescribe medicine, I wouldnt want some stranger injecting me that wasnt truly skilled and highly trained, but I would allow just about anyone to cut the roof off my car to get me out of a crash.
I had a look at the website and everyone that disagrees with the strike is a kno8head are a tw@t, reasoned argument NOT.
dave_s13
15-11-2002, 10:36
Originally posted by Jeffers_S13
I had a look at the website and everyone that disagrees with the strike is a kno8head are a tw@t, reasoned argument NOT.
I said it was my last post but couldn't resist.
I take it from your postings that you disagree with the strikes??
If so does that mean you fall into to the same category as those people mentioned above?
Jeffers_S13
15-11-2002, 10:49
Originally posted by dave_s13
I take it from your postings that you disagree with the strikes??
Bah ! you spotted it :)
If so does that mean you fall into to the same category as those people mentioned above?
Well I'd like to think that I am presenting a reasonable argument against those points made/raised ? name calling is 'pretty' juvenile in an issue as serious as this, its clear it isnt these people fighting for their cause. If it was a clear cut case then it wouldnt have to come to strikes, practically holding the public to ransom by risking their lives isnt a very sensible method of trying to gain support. The fact they have a Union means they will get what they want at the end of the day, whens the next strike gonna be planned for I wonder, prolly when the rest of the public sector get rises and someones neighbour, the mid-wife, gets a new car.
dave_s13
15-11-2002, 11:07
WTF!! That didn't make sense!
I'm not calling you names....you just said anyone that disagree's with the strike is a *** or a ***, and you disagree, I don't understand what you mean by that??
There will be no need for any future strike action if the FF's are paid a decent wage that continues to refelect the current rates of inflation and costs of living. That is what HASN'T happened for the last 25 years, this strike is the last resort.
Jeffers_S13
15-11-2002, 11:18
OK ! it doesnt read clearly, jeez, yeah Im gonna site here and call myself names :rolleyes: have another read...I mean anyone thats been on the forum on the website who disagrees with the strikes has simply been called names by fire crew posting on there themselves. Its more of a come and post here and get flamed. Paramedics and ambulance drivers being called White Taxi Drivers etc.
If this is the last resort what else have they done prior to this ? besides setting up a website that I have never heard of before.
dave_s13
15-11-2002, 11:20
Yeah, cos that ambulance driver made a bloody stupid comment.
There's some interesting views on that BB.
Thats it I'm done.............................................. .
turbo pete
15-11-2002, 11:43
Legalise cannabis.
Increase income to government by taxing cannabis.
That would reduce the amount of money spent in courts prosecuting people who are doing something less harmful than alcohol.
The police can then spend more time chasing and prosecuting real criminals.
Use the tax to pay all public sector workers more.
Oh and put more money into education. learning is the way forward for mankind.
I reckon the government should have done more to avoid the strikes in the first place. Public sector workers are always used as vote winning pawns and they never deliver what was promised.
Jeffers_S13
15-11-2002, 12:21
Originally posted by turbo pete
Legalise cannabis.
Increase income to government by taxing cannabis.
That would reduce the amount of money spent in courts prosecuting people who are doing something less harmful than alcohol.
The police can then spend more time chasing and prosecuting real criminals.
Use the tax to pay all public sector workers more.
Oh and put more money into education. learning is the way forward for mankind.
I reckon the government should have done more to avoid the strikes in the first place. Public sector workers are always used as vote winning pawns and they never deliver what was promised.
I would agree with all this.
In a word NO
Surely when they applied for the job they knew what they were going to be paid?
Martin T
15-11-2002, 18:32
First - on the 40% figure - ignore it. They would accept 15% provided there weren't silly conditions attaches to it.
If they were asking for 100% on £10,000, would that be worse? Ignore the percentage. Most of the firefighters in Reading have to commoute for 2 Hrs as they cant afford local property.
Second - they have been politely asking the Gov't for the past 10 years or more for a decent wage - the 40% is just all of those years added up. If the gov't had acted sooner, then this could have been avoided.
The piece of Sh*t f*ckface w*nker f*cking selfish ba*tard politicians are doing what they have been doing to the public services one by one. - Sh*tting on them, waiting for them to say NO and turning public opinion against them. If every politician died horribly tomorrow, the world would be a better place.
Pauly_Boy
15-11-2002, 18:41
Some squaddies have now been told that they can't thave their christmas leave cos of the threat of strikes!!
ffs, these blokes can't spend christmas at home with their familes and mates because a 11% pay rise isn't enough for firefighters.
If anyone hasn't read the express today, heres a few things:
They say that 10% of duty time is spent attending incidents, of those only 10% invlove fire. In the league table for the most dangerous jobs, its 23rd!
Wages and that
Fireman, £19800, 4 days on, 4 days off and upto 32 days holiday
Nurse, £19000 5 days on, 2 days off, 25 days holiday
Policeman £23700 Flexiable but they are 8hr days with 23 days holiday
The army is 6000 understrenth, 10000 long tern nursing vacencies, 800 midwife vacancies. Whilst for every fireman vacancy, they get on average 40 applicants!
Of course these figures will vary depending on the situation, but they are what to be most commonly expected.
Martin T
15-11-2002, 18:42
Secondly - you degree qualified people claiming you worked hard for 4 years, complaining about getting bugger all money. Sorry to break this to you, but you cost the taxpayer a sh*tload of money. My chemistry degree cost £9000 per person per year and I only paid £1000. As an added bonus this taxpayer funded degree would allow me to get earn more money, provided I worked hard. What problem do I have with paying this back? NONE.
The firefighter trains for 2 years WHILST PROVIDING A PUBLIC SERVICE, saving lives so whats wrong with getting £18k
I havent got a problem with that and I earn less!
Degree person:
Works hard for 4 yeard at public expense, having a great time, getting pissed all of the time. Gets a well paid job.
Firefighter:
Works his arse off for 2 years whilst getting qualified. cant afford his house when he wants to start a family.
Pauly_Boy
16-11-2002, 00:50
If you went to uni, i think you'd actually realise its not that simple!
You say that the tax payer pays alot for these students, but its these students that actually go on to bring in the most money into the UK economy, via inventions, new business or just being dam good at there job! These employees actually provide a service or make money for their company, firefighters spend the money that these people pay in tax!
You have to consider that a quater of the workforce is empolyed by the govenment, the NHS alone has over 1million employees! Is the private sector that has to pay these wages! The sums don't take much doing!
Originally posted by Jeffers_S13
Just as 99% of the population dont know what an Engineer does, except their perception is blurred by the fact that a TV repair man and a washing machine repair man are now referred to as Engineers.
Errrrrr excuse me??????
Y should TV repair men not be called engineers?
I am an Electronics engineer, i fix TV's.
I Trained for over 4 years including going to college at nights at my own expense to do this.
After over 7 years in the job, the most i could hope to earn is £14k, less than firemen.
But then i hardly think me risking an occasional electric shock is quite as perelous(?) as running into a burning building or any of the numerous other ways they risk there lives for u and me!!
I definitly support the strike for the reasons someone stated a while ago, these strikes are the only thing the firemen could do, nothing else, they have threatened for long and weary so as to spur the government on, its failed.
There has been numerous cases of firemen leaving the pickets to attend shouts.
HARDLY HEARTLESS!!!
And all the reports of deaths have been stated as nout to do with the strikes (up to u whether u believe that or not), but ud never have heard about them if there were no strikes!!
Any yes they know they wont get 40% but if they ask for 10% they are more likely to get 2%, surely everyone realises this.
I have tried many times to get in, but always have lucked out with the first selection.
So many people have said about it being an unqualified proffesion, what u fail to realise is that its not a job that just anyone can do, and as someone said b4, just cos u dont know kirchoffs law or understand Java, doesnt mean ur thick, or unqualified.
There are many stages to go through b4 being accepted to train as a fire fighter, its not like u just walk in off the street.
I think u will find that no-one gets into the fire service cos of the money, they get in cos they believe they will be doing a job thats worthwhile.
I certainly dont think its too much to ask that they get payed properly for it.
And while a few peeps have commented on the fire fighters moonlighting in other jobs, surely this highlights how poorly they are payed??????????
If anyone is interested, im now at uni studying IT, im gonna have to pay my way through cos of no grants, only loans now.
Hopefully at the end of it ill get a good paying job supposedlly between £18 and 20k.
Tell me how at the end of 4 years of uni and still waiting to be trained in a job, im worth more than a guy who risks his own life every day as part of his job???????
My 2p
Kev
AshT_200
16-11-2002, 14:52
Originally posted by SteveCarter200
Now compare that to what, for example (seeing as thers a lot of you here:)) , you IT bods earn for sitting in front of a computer tapping keys rather than running into burning buildings. I know who I consider being worth more money.
I'll remember that when you're desperate for Antibiotics. :rolleyes:
AshT_200
16-11-2002, 14:56
Originally posted by SteveCarter200
Afterall, would youdo their job for a takehome pay of about £800/ month?
This isnt just about now, its about the future as well.
Where does that figure come from?
You get more than that if you're on 18K a year.
And if you crash you're car at 100mph, then that's your tuff luck..
I'm all in favour of them getting a payrise, but striking because they wouldn't get the unreasonable aount they requested is taking the piss. Where would you make cuts to pay for it for example (And don't say MP, cos you know thats not going to happen.)
AshT_200
16-11-2002, 15:17
Originally posted by Nathan_200sx
If the goverment bow in who's gonna step up next? the dustmen? after all they get up early and put in there lions share to the community. where would it stop,
Good point.
If the dustmen all went on Strike, think of the sanitation problems we'd have.
1st the Rat population would increase, disease would increase, you might get plague outbreaks.
If people think I'm joking, just take note.... London Borough of Newham has the highest rate of Tuberculosis in the western world.
If you think of it in that context, Dustmen save lives to.
AshT_200
16-11-2002, 15:26
Originally posted by dave_s13
You don't for the police either.
I believe you need more Academic qualifications to join the police.
AshT_200
16-11-2002, 15:31
Originally posted by Fizzy
,was that a mistake in their profession is a lot more serious than many other professions due to their responsibilities, that's all.
Not necessarily.
If I make an error on our Computer System, and the wrong proportion of drugs were mixed on the production line...... need I say anymore?
We're not just knocking the Fireservice, Students know what they are getting into when they start off. They know that they are going to get into debt and it looks like it is going to get a lot worse for them with the top up fees scheme.
AshT_200
16-11-2002, 15:52
Originally posted by Martin T
Secondly - you degree qualified people claiming you worked hard for 4 years, complaining about getting bugger all money. Sorry to break this to you, but you cost the taxpayer a sh*tload of money. My chemistry degree cost £9000 per person per year and I only paid £1000. As an added bonus this taxpayer funded degree would allow me to get earn more money, provided I worked hard. What problem do I have with paying this back? NONE.
Try getting realistic figures, the average Student leaves University in debt to the tune of 12K (Student Loans)
In 10 years time, this figure is estimated to rise to 60K.
Martin T
16-11-2002, 17:10
Originally posted by Pauly_Boy
If you went to uni, i think you'd actually realise its not that simple!
I did go to university for a chemistry Masters!
The only people that worked harder than the Chemistry and Physics Students were the engineering and Med Students.
I only had 25 Hours of lectures per week. Hardly working hard. In fact, the only time you have to work hard is in the last year.
Originally posted by AshT_200
Try getting realistic figures, the average Student leaves University in debt to the tune of 12K (Student Loans)
In 10 years time, this figure is estimated to rise to 60K.
I was quoting what the taxpayer was paying for students to go to uni. I think that the cheepest course in Sheffield Uni was about £6000/person/year.
I have a friend in uni and he spends more money than I do, and I work for a living. Thats why there's so much debt. Bare in mind that the taxpayer also pays the interest on the student loans of £6000 per year. Students just have to pay back the loan in real terms (i.e. loan+inflation).
On the firefighters Strike - As I said before they have been asking for better wages for at least 10 years, and the Gov't kept taking advantage of the fact that they would not strike. Not bad being s*at on for 10 years before considering strike action. I do however disagree with the 8 day strikes - 2 day ones make just as good a point.
The firefighters are refusing to get shafted by the gov't any more.
Why is it perfectly ok for a bunch of megolomaniac selfish "I only care if I stay in power" politicians to get a 40% payrise along with even easier working conditions (late start, early finish, fu*k all hours), but not the firemen. BTW a backbench MP got just short of £35,000 BEFORE the rise!!!
The gov't are shafting the public services for as much as they can.
GP's - fed up with working conditions, so the government gives them a new contract based on lots of targets (to treat the illness, not the patient). They have to vote on this new contract WITHOUT DETAILS OF PAY!!!! What then happens is that if they accept the contract, the gov't then offers no more money, and then the papers then say they are only interested in the money!!! If they refuse the contract, the gov't says that they are not interested in modernising the service.
Consultants - The gov't offers them a 16% pay rise - looks good? Well thats for a 15% increase in hours! They allready work themselves to death. Its bollox.
In all these cases, the giv't thinks that this is a win/win situation for them, as the public will think that the victims of these traps are greedy. In reality, they will lose as the shortages will just get worse.
AshT_200
16-11-2002, 17:30
Originally posted by Martin T
I have a friend in uni and he spends more money than I do, and I work for a living. Thats why there's so much debt. Bare in mind that the taxpayer also pays the interest on the student loans of £6000 per year. Students just have to pay back the loan in real terms (i.e. loan+inflation).
I have a friend at UNI and she is generally skint (It goes on living) and she doesn't spend anything on luxuries (she can't afford to)
AshT_200
16-11-2002, 17:31
Originally posted by Martin T
The firefighters are refusing to get shafted by the gov't any more.
The gov't are shafting the public services for as much as they can.
We are all getting shafted by the Govt. We all moan, but the majority of us voted for them.... as it happens I didn't.
Martin T
16-11-2002, 17:45
Originally posted by AshT_200
We are all getting shafted by the Govt. We all moan, but the majority of us voted for them.... as it happens I didn't.
Lets just say If I was in Australia i would have been fined $15
I have a friend at UNI and she is generally skint (It goes on living) and she doesn't spend anything on luxuries (she can't afford to)
Your friend would appear to be the exception.
The only reason that I mention students so much is that most of the anti firefighter people appear to be ex students.
Pauly_Boy
16-11-2002, 18:56
First of all, students can only borrow just over £3000 a year of the govenment!
You should also realise that accomodation can be upto £100 a week, with the average being around £60, plus food and books on top of that and its costs alot of money. True these people also know what they are getting into, but in order for the UK to prosper, it needs to have a highly educated population, to attract big business and so the govenment get get more tax. Remember its the taxes that the people in the private sector and business pay that pay the firefighters wages. 1 in 4 people are emplyed by the govenment, which is a huge amount, so remember its these "IT bods" that pay their salary!
Anyway, how about pentions, private sector people have to work for years, saving large amount to have a good pention, public sector people get huge ones for next to nothing, thats not even including the numbers that take early retirement!
Originally posted by Pauly_Boy
First of all, students can only borrow just over £3000 a year of the govenment!
Nope, they can get over £4k.
Pauly_Boy
17-11-2002, 12:10
yeah, but thats if your a student in london!
AshT_200
17-11-2002, 18:01
Originally posted by Martin T
Your friend would appear to be the exception.
The only reason that I mention students so much is that most of the anti firefighter people appear to be ex students.
I take offence at that. I am like others an ex student. I am not anti Fire Fighter, I am anti strike.
Martin T, I see you went to UNI. Were you by any chance part of the minority that had their parents supporting them whilst they were studying?
Pauly_Boy
17-11-2002, 19:33
i had to quit cos i couldn't afford it!
I think its the fact that students goto uni for years, come out with loads of debt and then have to find a bloody job. The earliest for this is aged 21. FF's can just finish GCSE's, bum around and then get a job as a FF at 18 earning at least £16k, raising to about £20k by the time a uni student finishes!. All that for someone who could easliy be with out any qualifications!
Can ya see where we come from?
Out of interest cos I'll soon be in the postion for getting a job, what is the minimum salary you would accept a job for if you have just left uni? - I suppose it's a case of knowing what you're worth
Kenny_s13
17-11-2002, 22:20
I better throw in my two penenth then. You may knock the unions but there was a time when greedy selfish industrialists used to make children work in mines and workers in cotton mills and lead mines were dying from lung cancer and respiratory problems because all the owners were interested in were the profit they could make out of virtual slave labour. Trades Unions have fought tooth and nail to improve working conditions, to achieve fair pay and health and safety at work. Without them we would all be a lot worse off. Trades Unions have gone through a lot for all of us and have highlighted and got corrected many of the evils done by companies both in the past and in the present. Working conditions have improved greatly and less scrupulous companies have been forced under law to follow health and safety guidlines that were introduced as a result of union members taking action. Not only that they are still there to offer advice and help when you are thrown out of work unfairly and will foot the cost of an action aginst your ex employer. They will help with industrial as well as health matters and make sure that your workplace is safe for you to work in. Where do you think first aiders came from, and fire escapes, and breaks for VDU operators,
and fire safety equipment, all down to the unions fighting for you.
As for the firefighters I am in complete agreement with Steve on this, the level of pay for the fire service is appaling in this day and age, regardless of the hours they work. Most LOndon based secretarys and IT operators earn far more than the hourly rate the firefighters are on. They have a right to ask for more money, they do a sterling job and are extreemly skilled in what they do. Mostly looking after our arses when we **** up, like crashing cars or setting the chip pan on fire. Not to mention the times they have to go out attending a non existant fire because some teenage twat and his mates are on a wind up, or setting fire to a stolen corsa. I would be more inclined to want to see those ******s brought to justice , rather than slagging off life savers like the firemen.
Martin T
17-11-2002, 23:08
Originally posted by AshT_200
I take offence at that. I am like others an ex student. I am not anti Fire Fighter, I am anti strike.
Martin T, I see you went to UNI. Were you by any chance part of the minority that had their parents supporting them whilst they were studying?
Apologies - I was under the impression that you believed that they didn't deserve any more money.
For the record, I would not support a 40% pay rise, but a 16% one seems reasnoble to me. Having a ceiling of £21.5k in your earnings is just sh*te. I also do not support the 8 day strikes. They could make their point just as well if they had 24 hour or probably even 8 hour ones.
I did have my parents supporting me, and now I am curious as to what that has to do with this? Something to do with having it easy?
Pauly_Boy
18-11-2002, 00:37
Originally posted by Ant
Out of interest cos I'll soon be in the postion for getting a job, what is the minimum salary you would accept a job for if you have just left uni? - I suppose it's a case of knowing what you're worth
You got to get a job first mate!!!
Having a degree doesn't garente u a job, but i'd be expecting at least 16k!
AshT_200
18-11-2002, 07:36
The Telegraph has published a story regarding a Journalist who is a member of the Relief Firefighters. He reported that part time.... it took him 5 weeks to train to use a modern red appliance. Most of the army guys could have been trained in far less time.
Latest news is that the military will not be using red appliances, because the top brass do not want the army being used as political pawns.
AshT_200
18-11-2002, 07:38
Originally posted by Martin T
I did have my parents supporting me, and now I am curious as to what that has to do with this? Something to do with having it easy?
I got support from my parents, because they could. And I found it a lot easier than others who didn't, so I guess I am saying that.
dave_s13
18-11-2002, 08:57
Originally posted by AshT_200
I believe you need more Academic qualifications to join the police.
Not true M8.
Police selection is purely on merit, no qualifications needed.
They do have an accelerated program for graduates but someone with no qualifications can still get oin this if they're good enough.
I know cos I've tried to get in twice.
dave_s13
18-11-2002, 09:00
Originally posted by AshT_200
Where does that figure come from?
You get more than that if you're on 18K a year.
And if you crash you're car at 100mph, then that's your tuff luck..
Its not far off, when you take off the 11% pension contribution then tax and NI you end up with just under £900 give or take.
dave_s13
18-11-2002, 09:08
Originally posted by Pauly_Boy
FF's can just finish GCSE's, bum around and then get a job as a FF at 18 earning at least £16k, raising to about £20k by the time a uni student finishes!. All that for someone who could easliy be with out any qualifications!
Can ya see where we come from?
No.
There are VERY few 18 yr old firefighters, to get in requires an excellent attitude and self discipline; it usually takes 2-3 years to get a place anyway. To be a firefighters mean REALLY WANTING to be one, their selection process weeds out the ones just doing it cos they felt like it at the time.
BTW some of the most fking stoopid people I've met have got masters degrees in Mechanical engineering.
dave_s13
18-11-2002, 09:11
Originally posted by AshT_200
it took him 5 weeks to train to use a modern red appliance. Most of the army guys could have been trained in far less time.
And I've been informed that to become proficient in every aspect of an appliances operation takes 15 weeks.
I think Jonny '2 jags' Prescott said that on the radio.
AshT_200
18-11-2002, 11:49
Send Jonny 2 Jags to the picket lines and he can beat them all into submission.
http://www.amibritishornot.com/imagelibrary/feature/the_punch.jpg
PML at Presscot pic :D
Originally posted by dave_s13
BTW some of the most fking stoopid people I've met have got masters degrees in Mechanical engineering.
:( :o - that'll be me then!
:D
Pauly_Boy
18-11-2002, 12:40
Originally posted by AshT_200
Send Jonny 2 Jags to the picket lines and he can beat them all into submission.
http://www.amibritishornot.com/imagelibrary/feature/the_punch.jpg
lmao :D
If people 'really really' want to do the job, should pay be that huge'a factor?
Look at RSPCA vets and animal keepers. They do it because they love the job, not because of the money. As people have said, the FF's knew of the wage before hand, so why are they moaning now. 40 applicants to 1 vacancy really does say something, does it not?
AshT_200
18-11-2002, 12:44
Originally posted by Pauly_Boy
lmao :D
If people 'really really' want to do the job, should pay be that huge'a factor?
Look at RSPCA vets and animal keepers. They do it because they love the job, not because of the money.
They do get to go on the telly and meet Rolf tho. :D
Pauly_Boy
18-11-2002, 17:32
That 2 little boys song was voted in the top 3 songs of all top wasn't it?
Legend!
Kenny_s13
18-11-2002, 23:44
If people 'really really' want to do the job, should pay be that huge'a factor
Does the fact that someone really really wants a job mean that they should work for peanuts. Hmm, there are many people who work in charity shops who get paid nothing or less than the minimum wage, because the charity's can get away with it. I have not noticed charity directors getting a small wage for what they do. Ther is an old saying "a worker is worth his pay" I think that you can throw the whole thing into the same boat, fire service , hospital staff, charity workers etc, The government rely on peoples vocational gullibility to keep pay low. Ie to work in a vocation as a lifesaver or charity, people are not so demanding because they see themselves acting out of a sense of duty and loyalty, except that most of the time they are exploited because of it. Besides the government as a whole has no leg to stand on as far as fair pay is concerned , considering the 'poor' parlimentarians gave themselves two very hefty pay rises not so long ago, yet they still take directorships and sit on boards as advisers and head kwango's netting thousands in income, Prescott is head bull****terx when it comes down to it.
When will people wake up to reality there are very few MP's who are doing the job because they have a huge desire to act for and on behalf of the people who elected them. Kudos and social standing more like , with a nice house in the country and a directorship when they retire. Now if these nice people were to pass a bill in the house outlawing any income other than pay for being an MP maybe they would seem more like they had our interests at heart. perhaps a dose of vocational pay would do THem some good for a change. just a thought.
AshT_200
19-11-2002, 09:35
Kenny,
These people who work in Charity shops are called "Voluntary Workers" they volunteer to help.
Originally posted by Martin T
Lets just say If I was in Australia i would have been fined $15
Your friend would appear to be the exception.
The only reason that I mention students so much is that most of the anti firefighter people appear to be ex students.
just read this and wanted to say i am a student in my final year at uni, i am not anti-firefighter and i have bugger all money. For this reason i couldnt afford to run my 200sx this year, i have a loan available of 2700 quid a year and that has to last, in previous years i have had a job at uni and a job over the summer also, which with every bit of income i pour into my hobby....my car. However this summer i didnt work in a job, preferring instead to further my own knowledge of working on my 200sx, this being my final year i am not risking getting ajob for more money, this is the only opportunity for me to get a degree and this is the most important year not to feck up....
just wanted to add that as a student whos here and doin it:) ******** to it cant wait till i start gettin a steady income:D
Kenny_s13
20-11-2002, 20:21
Ash, I accept for some charities it may be different, I dont think it makes it right. Some (not all) types of charities use the title of charitable status to pay very low wages under the excuse that its a 'vocation' or a 'calling' Just the way we lose nurses and doctors from the NHS to private hospitals, and lose specialists to the USA.
Its because those in power rely on our humanity to hold sway above the cost of living. Elderly retired people or unemployed might work in a oxfam shop for a few weeks at a time, and I am not saying thats wrong , but I just get the feeling they are getting taken for a ride because of that. I didn't say that its not up to people to decide for themselves, I am maybe just being cynical but thats the way it seems to me to be. :)
Kenny_s13
20-11-2002, 20:21
Ash, I accept for some charities it may be different, I dont think it makes it right. Some (not all) types of charities use the title of charitable status to pay very low wages under the excuse that its a 'vocation' or a 'calling' Just the way we lose nurses and doctors from the NHS to private hospitals, and lose specialists to the USA.
Its because those in power rely on our humanity to hold sway above the cost of living. Elderly retired people or unemployed might work in a oxfam shop for a few weeks at a time, and I am not saying thats wrong , but I just get the feeling they are getting taken for a ride because of that. I didn't say that its not up to people to decide for themselves, I am maybe just being cynical but thats the way it seems to me to be. :) And I never mentioned volunteer workers.
Martin T
21-11-2002, 09:47
Originally posted by matt_j
just read this and wanted to say i am a student in my final year at uni, i am not anti-firefighter and i have bugger all money. For this reason i couldnt afford to run my 200sx this year, i have a loan available of 2700 quid a year and that has to last, in previous years i have had a job at uni and a job over the summer also, which with every bit of income i pour into my hobby....my car. However this summer i didnt work in a job, preferring instead to further my own knowledge of working on my 200sx, this being my final year i am not risking getting ajob for more money, this is the only opportunity for me to get a degree and this is the most important year not to feck up....
just wanted to add that as a student whos here and doin it:) ******** to it cant wait till i start gettin a steady income:D
Dont look forward to it too much. While you will have loads of money all of a sudden, you'll realise that working for a living is incredibly boring compared to uni. After a year or so, you'll get used to it.
Originally posted by Martin T
Dont look forward to it too much. While you will have loads of money all of a sudden, you'll realise that working for a living is incredibly boring compared to uni. After a year or so, you'll get used to it.
I'll second that. It almost tempts you to go back to uni, then your remember the money thing :)
Originally posted by Pauly_Boy
i had to quit cos i couldn't afford it!
I think its the fact that students goto uni for years, come out with loads of debt and then have to find a bloody job. The earliest for this is aged 21. FF's can just finish GCSE's, bum around and then get a job as a FF at 18 earning at least £16k, raising to about £20k by the time a uni student finishes!. All that for someone who could easliy be with out any qualifications!
Can ya see where we come from?
Have u actually ever tryed to get into the Fire Brigade?
Cos if u had u would realise its most probably the hardest job imaginable to get into at entry level, averaging 10 stages just to get into initial training.
U cannot just bum about and drift in, it takes amazing discipline and ultimate commitment.
I worked for 7-8 years getting my trade and working at it.
The trade died, im now at uni.
Yes money is tight, but for the work u do at uni, i could be overpayed.
Im not saying its a total skive, some of it is hard work, but its no comparison whatsoever to a proper job, especially not one risking ur life everyday.
And id expect to earn more than most firefighters as a starting salary, straight out of uni, even though im not really trained to do the job im being payed for:confused:
And btw most of my mates went to uni straight from school and now are degreed, but everyone of them admits uni was a breeze compared to work, and they all feel they had more money while at uni. (i take this is cos of no responsibilities, car, house etc)
Kev
Originally posted by Martin T
Dont look forward to it too much. While you will have loads of money all of a sudden, you'll realise that working for a living is incredibly boring compared to uni. After a year or so, you'll get used to it.
hahaha, hey man i know what you mean, i have worked as much as i can in holidays and even while at uni, and i had a placement year out last year where i worked for a year out in Spain, full time work nothing else where i ended up working 7 sodding days a week...
i would agree with you to a large extent but for the fact that i wont be working in an average job for an average wage for an average amount of years, boredom and normality is not the way im going to be going, im gonna be doing a job that i really want to do, a job thats a hobby as well if you see what i mean, that way i wont be tired of going to work because its going to be something i want to do....no way will i just work somewhere for money, i have done enough of that already:D
AshT_200
21-11-2002, 16:20
Originally posted by matt_j
i would agree with you to a large extent but for the fact that i wont be working in an average job for an average wage for an average amount of years, boredom and normality is not the way im going to be going, im gonna be doing a job that i really want to do, a job thats a hobby as well if you see what i mean, that way i wont be tired of going to work because its going to be something i want to do....no way will i just work somewhere for money, i have done enough of that already:D
So you're not going to be a fireman then?:rolleyes: ;)
Preparing to be flamed:D
Chris_Lacey
21-11-2002, 16:23
Wouldn't want to be flamed at the moment Ash, those firemen are prone to striking you know :D
:p Prepares to be charred.
AshT_200
21-11-2002, 16:37
Originally posted by Chris_Lacey
Wouldn't want to be flamed at the moment Ash, those firemen are prone to striking you know :D
:p Prepares to be charred.
LMFAO :D
Winterfell
22-11-2002, 11:25
Originally posted by Kenny_s13
When will people wake up to reality there are very few MP's who are doing the job because they have a huge desire to act for and on behalf of the people who elected them. Kudos and social standing more like , with a nice house in the country and a directorship when they retire..... just a thought.
At last someone who thinks like I do :D
I'vebeen arguing with people for years that the only politicians that want to help people are those without the power to do anything about it - ie back banchers.
Ministers, or those that want to be Ministers, are so busy sucking up to those in power and toeing the party line to ensure that the keep (gain) the status that they have (want), that they cannot make the necessary waves to bring about change.
Tony Blair has not become PM to change the way things are done - lets face it what has he changed?? He is a Tory with a red tie! He has become the PM simply because no one else in the Labour Movement was electable and for his own gratification. Personally I think he's a smary 2-faced weasel :mad:
As for firefighters striking - I understand why they want a pay rise - dont we all? I don't agree with their methods!!
I was in the armed forces doing a job I loved and getting payed crap wages - I also knew the problems with pay when I joined. At the end of the day I had a choice to make. Stay in the mob and enjoy myself or get out and get a job that can support my family.
Guess what I chose? I am now doing a crap job that pays good money and means I am able to buy a house, car, provide for my wife and kids and be able to put them through Uni at a later date... and although I miss my mates in the Forces, the way of life and camaraderie that existed there I am happier knowing that I made a choice based upon the safety & security of my family and I cannot support anybody who jeapordises that safety and security.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.9 Copyright © 2012 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.