View Full Version : why did most of the sx preform badly at santa pod
boosted_d16
10-10-2006, 03:15
i was v. interested to see what times the SX's get, as i had
recently sold my civic turbo to buy an SX for more power
i ran 14.1 in my shitty 1.6 sohc civic, yet most of the sx's i watched
got mid 14's and even 15's only 2/3 got into the 13 sec zone
thats high to mid 13s aswell.
i know the conditions were not perfect but i was watching
some of the skyline gts getin 13s yet the sx's were doing very badly .
what was the deal with that ? even my mates , sx got a 14.1 as his
best. which is a 300 bhp dyno proven car. plus his launches were not
too bad.
how do u guys feel about this ?
s13silvia
10-10-2006, 04:30
i was v. interested to see what times the SX's get, as i had
recently sold my civic turbo to buy an SX for more power
i ran 14.1 in my shitty 1.6 sohc civic, yet most of the sx's i watched
got mid 14's and even 15's only 2/3 got into the 13 sec zone
thats high to mid 13s aswell.
i know the conditions were not perfect but i was watching
some of the skyline gts getin 13s yet the sx's were doing very badly .
what was the deal with that ? even my mates , sx got a 14.1 as his
best. which is a 300 bhp dyno proven car. plus his launches were not
too bad.
how do u guys feel about this ?
"boosted D16"... could pre-empt the answer to my question as to how you ran a 14.1 :D
firstly, rear wheel drive doesnt have weight over the back wheels, making them easier to loose traction as far as i can work out; despite front wheelers having the torquesteer effect when lots of power goes through the weight of the engine bearing down on the wheels still helps the car move along regardless of shite traction (look at an SR20det micra for a prime example) .. its pretty much fact the more power you stick through a 200sx the slower your going to run down a 1/4 mile due to the sh*te launching it induces :ghey: ! unless you get silly with the figures and have slicks on that is....
secondly, the 200sx has a bit more bulk than that of your most-likely stripped civic! probably by a big margin!
but the benefits seem to be that a 200sx for example is designed (or at least) copes with very big power easily, unlike a little civic would as youd go sideways off the road nose-first at the first sniff of 300bhp on a wet road.. at least 200sx's put the correct end out first :nod: :thumbs:
I don't know about anyone else, but my S14a, even standard, excels as a fast road car much more than it does a dragster. I bet if we went for a tinkle around some A and B roads, I'd have to wait for you to catch up ;)
It's a drivers car IMO, not a drag car :D
Its a mix of things really, the most obvious is the power to weight ratio, the gearing and the torque characteristics of the car.
On a 1mile TSC track you'd find that the SX has much longer legs than the Honda.
IMO it's very hard to launch a 200, it either bogs or you get loads of wheelspin. I very rarely do standing starts though, so I might just be rubbish :wack:
Drag racing is boring anyway, so who cares? :sleep:
200's and SXOCers arent drag addicts as a rule, they do suffer from traction and tramp issues, and most people dont mod their cars for launches it seems, and launching them is a "knack".
People who can launch can do mid 12's with 300bhp, but there are only a couple who have proved this.
Actual_Ben_Taylor
10-10-2006, 09:04
More down to the driver than the car IMO.
Drag launches take practice (especially in a 200sx) and not many people on here are really into drag racing it seems...
s13silvia
10-10-2006, 09:22
they do suffer from traction and tramp issues
can only afford to live in their car, so never have a chance to mod their car to make it quick?! :D
Martin T
10-10-2006, 09:23
More down to the driver than the car IMO.
Drag launches take practice (especially in a 200sx) and not many people on here are really into drag racing it seems...
Nail on the head there - SXOCers cant launch for toffee!
Sideways14a
10-10-2006, 09:23
Well all i can say is that the sx's you saw were either very poorly or not anywhere near there quoted power output.
Couple of weeks ago i ran a 14sec dead quarter at crail (14.05anyway) and i did it with a
Standard Slipping clutch
Standard airbox
Standard DV
Standard Map and 15psi
And this .........With a previous (before the blowing elbow) power run of 250bhp.
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/9016/dsc00048zg6.jpg
So they can go very well on the quarter.
There's nothing wrong with SX's up the strip...
I've only ever done three runs in my S14a, the first was not a great start but I got a 13.8 and then managed two 13.5's in a row, this is with only 265bhp, on a hot August day at Santa Pod and very little experience in the car.
You've got to launch them right though :nod:
More down to the driver than the car IMO
I'd agree with that... :nod:
Sideways14a
10-10-2006, 10:40
Launching the sx is far far easier when its suspension's been fiddled with, infact i would say its easier than launching a decent powered 4wd car, as you dont get all that much bog down and your unlikley to fry the clutch as much.
Sure its possable to make a hash of it, but you dont need 300hp to get in to the 13s, not by a very long way.
Launching the sx is far far easier when its suspension's been fiddled with
that's good to know... I did my 13.5 runs on standard stuff...
boosted_d16
10-10-2006, 10:52
"boosted D16"... could pre-empt the answer to my question as to how you ran a 14.1 :D :
i ran 14.1 with only 0.5 (8psi) boost, lol,
eres a quick vid of it, but my mate who recoreded it is retared to forgive him.
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/wm/56bd093f-841d-4a68-966b-896348cb65d0.htm
and thanks for explaining ur views.
jacks300zx
10-10-2006, 11:29
people getting over excited! and wheelspinning like fook, you can have all the power in the world but it takes a lot of practice to get it down through the rear wheels
MeLLoN Stu
10-10-2006, 11:35
agree with what Ben said, but the car's are crap to launch too :nod:
however, this is usually because of the suspension setup, most people spring for a set of coilovers and ARB's when modding there car to anything that's decent, which will really make drag runs crap. :nod:
If I were to set up my S14 for drag launches I'd:
(after putting the engine and 'box in)
Run very light helper springs and fairly light main springs, and set the rear suspension to be at normal height when the helper springs were fully bound.
Soften the damping to suit the lower spring rate.
Set the camber to be Zero or a Gnat's positive when the helper spring is fully bound.
Run about 10psi in my semi slicks.
Drop the front of the rear subframe about 10-15mm to get some induce some squat.
And have an almost undrivable road car :(
If only Bodley Tunes were still with us, he'd be able to give us the masters guide to 0-60ft times:wack:
Purplepower
10-10-2006, 12:04
If only Bodley Tunes were still with us, he'd be able to give us the masters guide to 0-60ft times:wack:
LoL!
Most of what I was going to say has already been mentioned, but i'll re-itterate, as I was very disappointed with the times I was managing this weekend :(
I think my problems were:
Not enough weight over the back axle
Coilovers Waaaaaaay too stiff
Need some Drag radials
Driver needs ALOT of practise with the twin plate clutch!
I plan to try again, & buy some slick's to get the power down. Also, fit the standard rear suspension which I have & lastly go on a RWYB day to get some practice at launching without having to queue up for 2 hrs :whip:
I should be doing high 11's to mid 12's yet the best I could manage was a measly 13.05 @ 115mph!
Heck, I did a 13.014 @ 99mph with 300 bhp on the SR!
manic_mechanic
10-10-2006, 12:07
If only Bodley Tunes were still with us, he'd be able to give us the masters guide to 0-60ft times:wack:
PMSL! :notworthy :notworthy :D
Although he did knock some decent times out, in a proper nail!
I never give mine full beans in first because I hate it when the back end has a little paddy and stamps its feet.
I really need to search through the "tramp" threads, cos subframe locking bushes haven't helped at all!
As has been said a lot of 200 owners set their car up for fast road, track and drift so run hard suspension making traction a big issue.
Plus drag racing just isnt many 200 owners scene so lots of us are crap at launching :nod:
Red_Baron
10-10-2006, 12:18
you want an MR2 Turbo for fast launches with low power - it's got all the advantages of engine/gearbox/diff in 1 unit, plus all the advantages of weight over the rear end.
They knock into the low 4's to 60 with little tuning (relatively!)
Purplepower
10-10-2006, 12:22
you want an MR2 Turbo for fast launches with low power - it's got all the advantages of engine/gearbox/diff in 1 unit, plus all the advantages of weight over the rear end.
They knock into the low 4's to 60 with little tuning (relatively!)
Then, we wouldn't all be viewing this thread on the SXOC now would we :p :sxoc:
TheNickos
10-10-2006, 12:26
Not enough weight over the back axle
Next year i'll get in the boot as long as there's no bumps :sxoc:
Purplepower
10-10-2006, 12:45
Next year i'll get in the boot as long as there's no bumps :sxoc:
I'll hold you to that ;)
Sideways Danny
10-10-2006, 12:50
rear suspension isn't good for launches as there's too much camber so not enough surface area in contact with the road, this gets worse as you launch and the rear end squats, and it's ever worse on lowered cars.
I'll hold you to that ;)
You get the car sorted and Ill be the race fixer. Used to love doing that for Richie ........
"But its only a 1.8 mate ........" ;)
LoL!
Most of what I was going to say has already been mentioned, but i'll re-itterate, as I was very disappointed with the times I was managing this weekend :(
I think my problems were:
Not enough weight over the back axle
Coilovers Waaaaaaay too stiff
Need some Drag radials
Driver needs ALOT of practise with the twin plate clutch!
I plan to try again, & buy some slick's to get the power down. Also, fit the standard rear suspension which I have & lastly go on a RWYB day to get some practice at launching without having to queue up for 2 hrs :whip:
I should be doing high 11's to mid 12's yet the best I could manage was a measly 13.05 @ 115mph!
Heck, I did a 13.014 @ 99mph with 300 bhp on the SR!
If I had insurance I could have come an dlent you mine but am currently in major money trouble. Maybe early next year :) and well get you that 11s ;)
BTW dont buy any slicks until we find about next years TOTB regs, many will be banned, MT street ET for a start.
i only do drag racing with my 200SX RS13 CA18DET
on ~250HP i succeded do achive 13.8
dunlop SP9000 225 wide tires on the back
it is true the lunches are very important.
the whole ideea is that you lunch with a lower rev you will be out of boost and you will lose a lot of time.
if you rev it to hard the weels will spin and you wil lalso lose time,
the ideea is taht you rev it as hi as you can without losing traction when yo urelese the clutch but in same time be on boost
till now lowest starting rev 4000-4500rpm
highest rev 5000-5500rpm
i think my car have some problems because i do not have a LSD, but thsi was solved i ordered 2 weeks ago a S15 HLSD :D
a bad start a lot of weel spin at start
http://www.4tuning.**/gal/displayimage.php?album=421&pos=85
almost perfect start (against a opel speedster 4.9s 0-60mph)
http://www.4tuning.**/gal/displayimage.php?album=421&pos=103
on the second gear he pased by me, the T25 have big problems keeping 1 bar of boost till 7000rpm
my dyno
http://forum.4tuning.**/attachment.php?attachmentid=63012&d=1137781023
it looks so bad if you see how the power drops
anyway the whole ideea is that you must have a perfect start with no weelspin but must have boost from the begining (this may be achived by preloading the clutch, using the hendbrake ....)
and afther you lunch you must have be helped by the turbo in maintaining all the power and boost all over the rev range.
a car that is set up mostly for drag racing will be not a very good road drive, and i love mostly to drive my 200SX not to race it, and i think other SX owers feels the same
I've never seen the fascination in drag racing also. I'd sooner have a faster road going car which you can use every day :D
I'm not bothered by drag racing but its an engineering challenge that deserves respect. When you get to stand on the line at the Pod when a Funny Car takes off its something else, but at our level of competition it really a case of self gratification (and I love gratifying myself:thumbs: )
i must say, i do enjoy drag racing every now and then...but to make it as a sport for myself? no thanks.
its always interesting to know what time you run on the quarter mile, and to tell your friends about this (unless its more than 14.5 lol!)
(and I love gratifying myself:thumbs: )
There are cheaper ways gratifying yourself though, a KFC Zinger chicken bucket and a pack of 24 latex gloves is only £12.49 ... and you get more respect as well !
drag racing is like dyno days you just want a good number to annoy everyone else with :D
hopefully soon... ;)
manic_mechanic
10-10-2006, 17:29
And you get a greasy box to put your bone in!
Are you sure the standard suspension is crap, the DEVLSH car did a 8someting on standard suspension so it can be all bad there is a video somewhere
EDIT hear it is http://www.exvitermini.com/movies1104/DEVLSH-DragCombatFinal.avi
it was modified not completly stock, special setting used in terms of geometry and not forgetting a fully heated set of full drag compound slicks ;)
He would probably get a 12s on road tyres :nod:
I didnt think you guys would miss the slicks (a bit big I think) however surly the principal is still the same? i.e car squats and goes off the line?
I'm sure I'm over simpifying it but I would have thought that standard suspension would be better than most coilovers given its softness, although as show tyre choice makes a massive difference.
Purplepower
10-10-2006, 18:35
I didnt think you guys would miss the slicks (a bit big I think) however surly the principal is still the same? i.e car squats and goes off the line?
I'm sure I'm over simpifying it but I would have thought that standard suspension would be better than most coilovers given its softness, although as show tyre choice makes a massive difference.
That's exactly the right train of thought.
As I said above, coilovers are far too stiff for drag racing :)
There was an R34 GTR running standard suspension & 420 bhp running low 12's. You could see him squat & just launch off the line!
What we relly need is someone who is a proven drag launcher (consistant not just fast once in a while to launch with standard sus, cliovers, street tyres and drag slicks it would be really interesting to see what the real difference is as it could be that just having drag slick and standard sus is the perfect setup but knowone has tried it properly/under semi controled conditions.
I'd love to voulenteer but have never lauched in anger myself and I dont have any drag tyres
Purplepower
10-10-2006, 20:23
What we relly need is someone who is a proven drag launcher (consistant not just fast once in a while to launch with standard sus, cliovers, street tyres and drag slicks it would be really interesting to see what the real difference is as it could be that just having drag slick and standard sus is the perfect setup but knowone has tried it properly/under semi controled conditions.
I'd love to voulenteer but have never lauched in anger myself and I dont have any drag tyres
Well, the proof will be in the pudding when I go back to the POD ;)
I think the whole setup of the car was wrong for the japshow. I was contemplating bringing the standard suspension to stick on but decided it was too much of a PITA for a show.
rear suspension isn't good for launches as there's too much camber so not enough surface area in contact with the road, this gets worse as you launch and the rear end squats, and it's ever worse on lowered cars.
Good point! - I have adjustable rear camber arms, so it may be an idea to mark them where they are now & wind them out on the day to get some +ve camber :)
Purplepower
10-10-2006, 20:25
You get the car sorted and Ill be the race fixer. Used to love doing that for Richie ........
"But its only a 1.8 mate ........" ;)
LoL, Just seen this :D
I don't think "It's only a 2.6" will have the same ring to it though :wack:
Out of curiosity, Mr. Purple Power, what did you run?!! :D
Purplepower
10-10-2006, 20:34
Out of curiosity, Mr. Purple Power, what did you run?!! :D
Have a looksie at post No. 20 ;)
Daniel san
10-10-2006, 20:41
People's idea of "tuning" differs massively too. There's those that think bolting loads of stuff on to increase hp makes the car go better and there's those that use decent ECU's to get the best out of what they have and increase the torque etc. As some have mentioned, it's perfectly reasonable to expect a 300hp S14 to run low 13's or maybe quicker, but tbh I personally haven't seen many actually do it - most run 14's or more.
I had a rubbish set of runs at pod.
On the saturday there was far less grip and I had trouble keeping it off the rev limiter.
On the sunday I intentialy used less revs and there seemed to be more grip so bogged down every time.
I was only getting ~100mph terminals though so I think I might not be making good power for my setup. Its not been RR'd yet and has been mapped by myself so its totaly possible.
I would have thought a bad start would have problably not made such a difference on terminal speed??
starlet turbo
10-10-2006, 22:07
i love drag racing!! it becomes addictive. i did 14.8 when my car was stock then on the saturday at japshow i did a 5 runs and did two 14.4's with the mods below ok i guess. i reckon 300bhp would get a s14 into the 13's
Purplepower
10-10-2006, 22:27
I had a rubbish set of runs at pod.
On the saturday there was far less grip and I had trouble keeping it off the rev limiter.
On the sunday I intentialy used less revs and there seemed to be more grip so bogged down every time.
I was only getting ~100mph terminals though so I think I might not be making good power for my setup. Its not been RR'd yet and has been mapped by myself so its totaly possible.
I would have thought a bad start would have problably not made such a difference on terminal speed??
100mph terminals is about right for an S14 with 280 - 300bhp :)
In my case...
265bhp = 13.5secs @ 104mph
When I go to stage 2 then I'd hope to be breaking the 12's
Purplepower
10-10-2006, 22:38
In my case...
265bhp = 13.secs @ MPH
When I go to stage 2 then I'd hope to be breaking the 12's
As has been said, it can be done. Alot of it is down to driver skill.
The quarter mile is generally make or break in the first 60ft, that's why you hear people always banging on about launching.
IIRC, Skidz managed a high 12 second pass with 300 bhp. It may have been less power (I'll wait to be corrected) but even so, it was an excellent achievement.
I hope you manage your 12 second pass also :cool:
It's all in the launch, get it right and you will get a better time :nod:
Here are a couple of video clips of one of my runs, same one but different views >>>
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kx7uFdhmRMY (sorry about the quality)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EzJWKlOpisY
You can see what a difference a good start makes, not just initially but over the whole run.
Both cars are stage 1 tuned S14a's with similar mods, both running 1 bar of boost, and on the road have similar performance, so reallistically should be running similar times, the driver was the key difference.
p.s. I am the green one in the left lane, I won't tell you who the red one is, he's touchy about me kicking has @rse! ;) :wack:
I think that as my power increases, my times won't necessarily decrease at the same rate. :no:
More power, means more torque, which means less grip and so it will get harder & harder to get a good launch...
I dont see wat all the fuss is about:D i had never done a 1/4 mile until sunday and my 1st run was a 13.142 @ 111MPH and reaction time was 1.5sec's:p My car is set up for a mix of track and drift. must admit times got slower as day went on as gave it more foot so had no traction:mad:
So was i the fastest SR powerd SX of the weekend?:confused:
If so someone ows me some money:nod:
i think a lots down to gearing. i mean the s14 is capable of 170 mph on its gear box :rolleyes: .
the s13 is a better launcher (was for me)
Nismo_Freak
11-10-2006, 02:48
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R8sIsjXvQA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBIGTizFGh4
I ran 13.6 @ 106 with 230whp...
Sounds like your track has a crappy surface.
Oh and I did that on 205/60 Goodyear Assurance tires so if you have tires with air in them you have more grip than my 240 automatically.
Purplepower
11-10-2006, 05:11
I dont see wat all the fuss is about:D i had never done a 1/4 mile until sunday and my 1st run was a 13.142 @ 111MPH and reaction time was 1.5sec's:p My car is set up for a mix of track and drift. must admit times got slower as day went on as gave it more foot so had no traction:mad:
So was i the fastest SR powerd SX of the weekend?:confused:
If so someone ows me some money:nod:
Not by a LONG shot :p
There was a damson S14a who ran a 12.66 quarter :cool:
you want an MR2 Turbo for fast launches with low power - it's got all the advantages of engine/gearbox/diff in 1 unit, plus all the advantages of weight over the rear end.
They knock into the low 4's to 60 with little tuning (relatively!)
i looked and i do not se anything special at MR2
same weight same power as the 200SX
you said this are advantages
engine/gearbox/diff
- SR20DET can be compared as equal with the engine from MR2 so i do not see this an advantage for MR2
- gearbox not my field of expertise, but i'm content with the 200SX gearbox
- diff VLSD on 200SX may not be the best diff in the world but a HLSD from a 200SX S15 will be so nice and looking this way i do not see the advantage of the MR2 diff
till now the only car that get a WOWWW from me was the Opel Speedster Turbo
970kg 2.0l turbo engine 200HP
stock it has 4.9s 0-60mph
relatively cheap it reached 300HP (ecu remap + boost + nitro)
but this is an expensive car 10 times then my 200SX :D
i looked and i do not se anything special at MR2
same weight same power as the 200SX
Errr ............... the engine is over the back wheels. Do you not think that might help then?? :confused:
jap thing
11-10-2006, 09:26
are you lot having a joke here or what why not try launching with your hand break, i got 14.2@95mph in my s13 all you do is pre-stage with your hand break as long as your not napping like 1.4 sec at the line and getntly bring in the gas, my reaction time was .455 of a sec best worst .565. 565 was after a joint lol i have got cut springs and an open diff and 15" wheels i even had all my seats in and also had the spare wheel in and jack :confused:
I dont see wat all the fuss is about:D i had never done a 1/4 mile until sunday and my 1st run was a 13.142 @ 111MPH and reaction time was 1.5sec's:p My car is set up for a mix of track and drift. must admit times got slower as day went on as gave it more foot so had no traction:mad:
So was i the fastest SR powerd SX of the weekend?:confused:
If so someone ows me some money:nod:
Thats not good for the clutch.
Best way is to stick drag tyres on, use a 2 step limiter just below your rev limit and tehn dump the clutch instantly.
Then find out you have falsae started and ran out of time for the day :mad: :mad: :mad:
My first attempt at the pod i ran a 15.6.:(
Bogged down really badly at the start,was really nervous with mates watching me from the stand.....oh and the dirty great big drag spec v8 mustang which was next to me!
I still gave it a shot thou(for some reason something in my head said "you can have him off the lights!")
anyway i f*cked it all up and he wheeled it off the line with a reaction time of 0.03 and ran a 10.1 quarter!
If I launched it right I think I could of had him!:D
jap thing
11-10-2006, 10:15
yeah the bum twitches a bit when you have a v8 on funny fuel vibrating your car next to you :clap: only 5sec's of my friend:thumbs:
My first attempt at the pod i ran a 15.6.:(
Bogged down really badly at the start,was really nervous with mates watching me from the stand.....oh and the dirty great big drag spec v8 mustang which was next to me!
I still gave it a shot thou(for some reason something in my head said "you can have him off the lights!")
anyway i f*cked it all up and he wheeled it off the line with a reaction time of 0.03 and ran a 10.1 quarter!
If I launched it right I think I could of had him!:D
jap thing
11-10-2006, 10:18
oh and my clutch is fine cheers as you don't ride the clutch you just hold with the hand break rather than take your foot off the break and putting it on the gas (takes a good half sec if not a sec)
I normally just let my car sit still with my foot fully floored on the throttle with the 2 stage holding it at a nice rpm, about 4K for road tyres, 6.9K for drags.
Only point in using the handbreak is to ride the clutch IMO to add load and build up boost but I only imagine this is needed for like a T78 or something. Medium turbos up to about 500bhp shouldnt need it.
ZXSpectrum
11-10-2006, 10:51
My mate ran 12.66 and thats with almost 600bhp at the wheels. He just struggles to get it off the line. That said he is running old Toyo T1S, standard gearbox, diff, prop and driveshafts. Over winter he will be concentrating on traction (And a little more power) So it will be getting either wide semislicks or drag radials, uprated box, diff, prop (Single piece) and driveshafts and probably softer rear shocks as well as some other chassis modifications to stop flex. Its going to be interesting and should make it into the 11's at least...
Funny thing is that some of the fastest cars up the strip are RX7's and they weigh less than the 200 so they must be doing something to promote better launches.
:thumbs:
The toyo S are probably the only thing thats stops the gearbox blowing up lol. He should be in the 10s if he gets it right ;)
The main RX7 trader sells a lot of drag tyres, so I expect that is what it is.
jap thing
11-10-2006, 12:13
well for those of us that havn't got s14's and 2 stage it helps and i'm only a sec off you with a boot full of camping gear on standard tyres also i like to let the other person stage first let them wait a bit n get nervous lol all i use is throttle control no horid clutch smell like most of the other s14's and skylines and i'm all good i have spent £450 total including buying the car standard apart from mines stage2 chip, mongoose, airfilter :thumbs: not to bad really, we will see what im like again at the flame and thunder rwyb see how hard it is to knock that second off.
I normally just let my car sit still with my foot fully floored on the throttle with the 2 stage holding it at a nice rpm, about 4K for road tyres, 6.9K for drags.
Only point in using the handbreak is to ride the clutch IMO to add load and build up boost but I only imagine this is needed for like a T78 or something. Medium turbos up to about 500bhp shouldnt need it.
Not by a LONG shot :p
There was a damson S14a who ran a 12.66 quarter :cool:
Arrrrg!!! i think a bit more practice and better tyres ill be able to better that, the car is more than capable:D saying that the next time it sees track action again itl be at least another 50hp up, maybe 500hp if i get water/meth or NO2 injection:confused: (undecided) was he only using pump fuel Jay?
Sideways14a
11-10-2006, 18:11
are you lot having a joke here or what why not try launching with your hand break, i got 14.2@95mph in my s13 all you do is pre-stage with your hand break as long as your not napping like 1.4 sec at the line and getntly bring in the gas, my reaction time was .455 of a sec best worst .565. 565 was after a joint lol i have got cut springs and an open diff and 15" wheels i even had all my seats in and also had the spare wheel in and jack :confused:
:nod: :nod: Spot on i cant understand some of the stuff in this thread.
Jamie (king_j on here) and myself were at crail and both of us ran some great times couple of weeks back
He ran a 13.6 at 106 with what ...270 odd bhp and i ran my 14 dead with the blowing tubby elbow i already mentioned and a dyno from a few months back of 250 when it was running well....
Both cars well under 300hp, both sporting suspension work and both very good on the quarter for the power they put down, at least if you go by some of the times in this thread...maybe they moved the line for us???:D
eyeballpaul
11-10-2006, 19:20
It was me in the damsons s14a yes the car still runs on pump fuel shell v power to be exact, polo i belive you owe me the tenner :)
It was me in the damsons s14a yes the car still runs on pump fuel shell v power to be exact, polo i belive you owe me the tenner :)
ARRRRRG!!!! was it you who sead your in on that???? i didnt see it so...........:D
eyeballpaul
11-10-2006, 20:59
Maybee next time then:thumbs:
Purplepower
11-10-2006, 22:06
Maybee next time then:thumbs:
Can you post your spec? :)
Well done on the time by the way, it was a fantastic run :cool:
Purplepower
11-10-2006, 22:11
are you lot having a joke here or what why not try launching with your hand break, i got 14.2@95mph in my s13 all you do is pre-stage with your hand break as long as your not napping like 1.4 sec at the line and getntly bring in the gas, my reaction time was .455 of a sec best worst .565. 565 was after a joint lol i have got cut springs and an open diff and 15" wheels i even had all my seats in and also had the spare wheel in and jack
Well, You try holding a twin plate clutch at biting point on the line without either stalling the car or lurching it forward into a false start!
That said, I don't think i'll be slipping £800 worth of clutch as thats what kills twins.
Dependant on spec, set up etc. every car will have to launch slightly different.
I think the main point of this thread is: Power is nothing without traction!
It isn't a case of "I ran a 13 second quarter with 300bhp, so will run a 12 second quarter with 400 bhp.
I'd also say the fact you had some crap in the boot helped your times by aiding traction due to the extra weight over the back axle :)
jap thing
12-10-2006, 08:59
who said i was riding the clutch?? if i did have a twin plate (whitch i wont) i wouldn't kill it in one run by riding it also £800 is double what i paid for the car inc upgrades oh and i have driven more powerfull cars up the track with no prob's.
but yeah the crap in the boot helped the launch but not the top speed (next time i'm going to put a fat bird in the boot) lol i did however lower the tyre pressure to about 15psi on the rear.:thumbs:
Well, You try holding a twin plate clutch at biting point on the line without either stalling the car or lurching it forward into a false start!
That said, I don't think i'll be slipping £800 worth of clutch as thats what kills twins.
Dependant on spec, set up etc. every car will have to launch slightly different.
I think the main point of this thread is: Power is nothing without traction!
It isn't a case of "I ran a 13 second quarter with 300bhp, so will run a 12 second quarter with 400 bhp.
I'd also say the fact you had some crap in the boot helped your times by aiding traction due to the extra weight over the back axle :)
who said i was riding the clutch?? if i did have a twin plate (whitch i wont) i wouldn't kill it in one run by riding it also £800 is double what i paid for the car inc upgrades oh and i have driven more powerfull cars up the track with no prob's.
but yeah the crap in the boot helped the launch but not the top speed (next time i'm going to put a fat bird in the boot) lol i did however lower the tyre pressure to about 15psi on the rear.:thumbs:
I wouldnt go that low on road tyres, for a start its very dangerous they arnt meant to run that low, secondly theres prob not that much advantage.
Please ask the manufacturer the min pressure before you go and get yourself put in a sidewall.
My drags can be run as low as 12psi, proper slick drags require inner tubes to run lower and teh tyres need to be screwed to teh wheels (proper wrinkle walls) mine are a road legal variety as most places wont let you run illegal tyres without licences etc.
jap thing
12-10-2006, 10:07
i did pump them up before i went home lol, it worked fine for me even with cut springs she went dead strait up the track. don't get me wrong i'm up for the saftey thing i'm just not up for the limp wristed cuddling nanny state variety...
i'm not out for spending 1000's of pounds as most s13 owners just want to see how they perform on the track and off on a budget, every little helps and i seemed to be running as quick as most of the s14's.
what part of bristol are you from i used to live in henbury
Just bought a place in patchway 6 months ago. Actually from liverpool though.
I'd happily run 55 profile standard size S14 tyres at 15psi on the drag strip, I ran 22psi (IIRC) last time i was there, and I think JSF ran lower than me on the same day and was 0.4Sec quicker with the same power (ish) and probably more skill :rolleyes:
I would be a bit worried about the shearing force on the side wall. Might be ok with toyos but F1s? would have thought it would eb dodgy ground. I dont know suppose its a calculated risk. Last time I ran on strip with road legal tyres I had 32psi, still managed a 13.4s on a icey day too :D
Didnt someone say that due to the hard sidewall of road tyres there was no advantage to it on the strip as the tyres dont push down in the middle? I suppose it depends what tyres, the toyo S and R have very stiff sidewalls.
Purplepower
12-10-2006, 17:18
who said i was riding the clutch?? if i did have a twin plate (whitch i wont) i wouldn't kill it in one run by riding it also £800 is double what i paid for the car inc upgrades oh and i have driven more powerfull cars up the track with no prob's.
but yeah the crap in the boot helped the launch but not the top speed (next time i'm going to put a fat bird in the boot) lol i did however lower the tyre pressure to about 15psi on the rear.:thumbs:
No one said you wre riding the clutch :confused:
What I was trying to get at, was IMO with a Twin it's a different kettle of fish. I pre loaded the transmission when I was running the RPS Max street organic clutch & that worked really well for my times. (13.014 @ 99 MPH).
I tried doing the same with the twin the weekend & it wasn't having none of it :no: :down:
you want an MR2 Turbo for fast launches with low power - it's got all the advantages of engine/gearbox/diff in 1 unit, plus all the advantages of weight over the rear end.
They knock into the low 4's to 60 with little tuning (relatively!)
if its pure 1/4 mile the mr2 is a lot easyer . my m8 has a pink mk1 mr2 turbo and she ran 12.05 second @ santapod saturday . id say its over 300bhp but thats a very good time for the power
on the other hand my s14 i only have around 300bhp now , its possible for me to get 13.4 @ 105mph and im struggling to beat this now as i need to master launching .
if you watch my video below . you can hear me holding my revs upto just below where the turbo cuts in (holding the hand break of course so i dont roll . i release the clutch and dont boot it untill its possible but even then she spinns up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ-3nzYhDVY
you need to feed the power in more gradually, slipping the clutch slightly, same method as on a fwd car which is worse for traction
I think this is why I mastered it straight away in the SX as I've done a lot of runs on my previous fwd cars and got good times
dobergoose
15-10-2006, 14:19
If I were to set up my S14 for drag launches I'd:
(after putting the engine and 'box in)
Run very light helper springs and fairly light main springs, and set the rear suspension to be at normal height when the helper springs were fully bound.
Soften the damping to suit the lower spring rate.
Set the camber to be Zero or a Gnat's positive when the helper spring is fully bound.
Run about 10psi in my semi slicks.
Drop the front of the rear subframe about 10-15mm to get some induce some squat.
And have an almost undrivable road car :(
I'd go with most of that. If you've ever seen any of the Jap 200's run they all run with positive rear camber. A set of HKS drag coilovers would be a good starting point. Sticking drag radials or slicks and a 2 step rev limiter.
Oh and a strong gearbox or it'll be lucky to pass the 60ft marker.
Although he did knock some decent times out, in a proper nail!
All away from the pod though - his times at the pod were high 13's/low 14's and, tbh, in a lower powered car with someone that's practiced at drag racing - that's nothing to be screaming about. I've run a 13.6 at 105 and I've only ever done it 3 times :wack:
You could see the 200's struggle off the line - purplepower was still wheelspinning in 3rd ffs :wack: There's the problem, for various reasons ie suspension geometry tyres too much power not enough grip blah blah, but realistically I couldn't give a toss :D
manic_mechanic
16-10-2006, 11:15
I suppose if they made a good drag car, they'd make a poor drifter?
To be honest I'm not interested in drag OR drift, I prefer circuit or hillclimbs personally.
You need different suspension setups for drag, drift, <insert race category here>
Hillclimb would be good as the incline will bias weight towards the back wheels - helping with traction issues ;)
Rob
A lot of wheelspin even as standard:nod: .
interesting thread this.
im looking at having a road / drag car as most ppl seem to be track and drift.
ive just got rid of my coilovers and am back on standard shocks so can start from scratch and use trial and error on what parts work and what dont :nod:
with 350hp at fly best i could do was 13.4 at the pod running kybs and apex springs way to hard for it
damo
thebigroyboyski
19-10-2006, 21:27
i've ran 13.8s at crail on 265bhp before and hope for mid 13s now that i'm at stage 1. I don't see the problem people are having with launching 200s, i managed 13.8 on about my 5th ever run up the strip and have made it into the 14s on a soaking wet track:nod:
Edit, above was done on standard shocks with apex springs, 205, 55, 16 tyres
You need different suspension setups for drag, drift, <insert race category here>Or preferably a different car? ;)
200s just have poor traction, IMO. :(
Or preferably a different car? ;)
200s just have poor traction, IMO. :(
I'm not totally convinced, especially when talking about when rolling.... wet trackdays give an excellent view of who gets the power down??? At a very wet spa, as many others trackdays, evo's, scoobys, porches, ultima's to name a few were floundering compared to our aging 200's ;)
Bayside Blue
20-10-2006, 01:29
I'm not totally convinced, especially when talking about when rolling.... wet trackdays give an excellent view of who gets the power down??? At a very wet spa, as many others trackdays, evo's, scoobys, porches, ultima's to name a few were floundering compared to our aging 200's ;)
I think the 200 has loads :thumbs: and too much with maxsport slicks lol :wack:
Circuit racing is about smoothness, as SteA says the car is already rolling. The 200 is a fairly torquey car and you know they have a big kick! of course they are going to break traction easily if you go foot to the floor off the line from standstill through 1st, 2nd and 3rd even!
I'm not totally convinced, especially when talking about when rolling.... wet trackdays give an excellent view of who gets the power down??? At a very wet spa, as many others trackdays, evo's, scoobys, porches, ultima's to name a few were floundering compared to our aging 200's ;)
I'd agree with this, the 200 has good traction, but does have a less than ideal launching capability.
Doesnt matter, most of us know drag racing is :ghey:
I could do with learning to launch, was losing me a fair few tenths at sprints last year though, yak was just rolling off the line then booting it and doing better.
200s just have poor traction, IMO. :(
not in the dry?
maybe with big power they might be worse, but I have no problems doing a fast launch in my stage 1 car, hence the 13.5
not in the dry?
maybe with big power they might be worse, but I have no problems doing a fast launch in my stage 1 car, hence the 13.5
when i had 271bhp @ stg 1 and std clutch launching was fine , but scince more modz etc and paddle clutch its hard to get away and ive even lost 0.1 seconds off my time due to spinnage (was 13.4 now 13.5 )
I'm not totally convinced, especially when talking about when rolling.... wet trackdays give an excellent view of who gets the power down??? At a very wet spa, as many others trackdays, evo's, scoobys, porches, ultima's to name a few were floundering compared to our aging 200's ;)I can maybe believe Ultimas and Porsches with average drivers, but Scoobies and Evos? :confused: Unless they had too much power and massive laggy turbos, it would be odd for a sorted 4wd to be poorer in the wet :confused: (Although, interestingly, racing Porsches are meant to have great traction thanks to all of that weight over the driving wheels.)
My experience is limited to my car, of course (the only other 200 I've driven is Vez's, and I didn't push it around corners) but I had supposedly good coilovers, set up properly, and both on 8.5" SO3s and 6.5" Dunlop DO1Js I always felt the rear traction was poor, even in the dry, especially out of corners, with my modest ~260bhp. I'm sure other peoples' cars are better, but I wasn't willing to keep on buying more setup bits, just to see if they worked.
I keep on wondering now whether the coilovers were just too stiff and under-damped, and a softer setup would have been better, but had this been the case, I'd have perhaps expected a difference between different surfaces; even on smooth bits, I never found much improvement. And they weren't that stiff, in the grand scheme of things.
Come the n/a MR revolution, in the New Year, I'll report back ;) :D
I can maybe believe Ultimas and Porsches with average drivers, but Scoobies and Evos? :confused: Unless they had too much power and massive laggy turbos, it would be odd for a sorted 4wd to be poorer in the wet :confused: (Although, interestingly, racing Porsches are meant to have great traction thanks to all of that weight over the driving wheels.)
Seen it at a lot of tracks this last year.... at Spa, all the scoobys were WR1's so pretty sorted and it wasnt a base model evo either. They appeared to be understeering?? Interesting that I dont use my traction control on track but tried it briefly at Spa out of curiosity, funnily the car was massively slower and really struggled through the corners. Traction control off and balancing the throttle was a lot lot quicker :nod: Except the obvious planting the throttle in a straight line, I had pretty much no traction problems at Spa, and therein lies the rub ;) , if I had suffered traction problems then the 4wd cars would be noticably quicker in the wet I'm sure :nod:
The ultima driver had a chat to me after being in front for a lap then having to move over to let me pass, and commented how well our cars were doing at spa. From his past history, he didnt sound like an average driver by any stretch, but he did say he was finding it very very difficult to get any power down, even with wet tyres on ;) On a wet track, you'd think they just have too much power :nod:
There was a new mini at spa that really was faster than everyone else :nod: now he did seem to have unlimited traction. Until he stacked it :(
I can maybe believe Ultimas and Porsches with average drivers, but Scoobies and Evos? :confused: Unless they had too much power and massive laggy turbos, it would be odd for a sorted 4wd to be poorer in the wet :confused: (Although, interestingly, racing Porsches are meant to have great traction thanks to all of that weight over the driving wheels.)
My experience is limited to my car, of course (the only other 200 I've driven is Vez's, and I didn't push it around corners) but I had supposedly good coilovers, set up properly, and both on 8.5" SO3s and 6.5" Dunlop DO1Js I always felt the rear traction was poor, even in the dry, especially out of corners, with my modest ~260bhp. I'm sure other peoples' cars are better, but I wasn't willing to keep on buying more setup bits, just to see if they worked.
I keep on wondering now whether the coilovers were just too stiff and under-damped, and a softer setup would have been better, but had this been the case, I'd have perhaps expected a difference between different surfaces; even on smooth bits, I never found much improvement. And they weren't that stiff, in the grand scheme of things.
Come the n/a MR revolution, in the New Year, I'll report back ;) :D
Look at the timing taken in J-tuner on the wet weather testings. 4WD no advantage over a RWD car with TC. Bit shocked I was faster then 400bhp+skylines hehe
Seen it at a lot of tracks this last year.... at Spa, all the scoobys were WR1's so pretty sorted and it wasnt a base model evo either. They appeared to be understeering??You implied that they were struggling to "get the power down", which to me means problems with traction...
wet trackdays give an excellent view of who gets the power down??? At a very wet spa, as many others trackdays, evo's, scoobys, porches, ultima's to name a few were floundering compared to our aging 200'sIf you're faster because you're not understeering to the same extent, that's fair enough, but that's not due to a lack of traction :)
dobergoose
22-10-2006, 14:50
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/dobergoose/tirepressure.jpg
You implied that they were struggling to "get the power down", which to me means problems with traction...
If you're faster because you're not understeering to the same extent, that's fair enough, but that's not due to a lack of traction :)
Tom, you know I'm not pendantic but isnt that exactly due to a lack of traction??? Or are we thinking about things slightly differently. Traction includes grip in all circumstances, both under acceleration and cornering........... as soon as we exceed the limits of adhesive friction then we lose traction...... you know what I'm getting at :wack: its a lot more complicated than that, most of which is beyond my knowledge of mechanics :D
My fault - I'll try to explain what I meant better :)
"Struggling to get the power down" means (to me ;) ) that someone is having trouble with longitudinal traction - on acceleration, their tyres on their driven wheels spin up.
A loss of front-end lateral grip (=understeer) isn't necessarily related to a loss of longitudinal traction, as there are lots of factors that can contribute to understeer: suspension setup, weight distribution, tyres, driver inputs, F:R power distribution, etc etc etc.
:)
My fault - I'll try to explain what I meant better :)
"Struggling to get the power down" means (to me ;) ) that someone is having trouble with longitudinal traction - on acceleration, their tyres on their driven wheels spin up.
A loss of front-end lateral grip (=understeer) isn't necessarily related to a loss of longitudinal traction, as there are lots of factors that can contribute to understeer: suspension setup, weight distribution, tyres, driver inputs, F:R power distribution, etc etc etc.
:)
:thumbs: Yes, lots of other stuff to think about too.
adey1984
24-10-2006, 09:00
i want my 200 back, she ran 12.7 sec quarters at 112mph with silly camber on the back, really setup for a bit of drift, car was on the stock turbo too ;-) not meaning to blow my own whistle but alot of the time comes downt odriver skill. terminal speed gives u a ruff idea of power but u need to be able to put the power down and get off the line quickly and cleanly.
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g278/adey1984/IMG_3957.jpg
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g278/adey1984/IMG_3956.jpg
you can see the camber in these pics.
thebigroyboyski
28-10-2006, 13:23
Who says 200's can't launch:D
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thebigroyboyski
28-10-2006, 14:16
Cheers, didn't think the link worked:thumbs:
Well take a look at this(if it works!)
http://www.upgrademotoring.com/videos/upgrade_commercial.htm
Still running the SR20DET as well!
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