View Full Version : Supercharging?
I know what it is...but how does it compare to turbo-charging? What benefits does it offer, apart from plenty of low-end grunt?
eeerrrmmm.... NO LAG!! maybe someone should sort out a supercharger anti lag system for 200`s:D :D
Two main types of supercharger, positive displacement type and centrifugal type.
Positive Displacements blow a constant boost through-out the revs so you have monster torque from basically idle. Tough on transmissions, great for things like Jaguar's and that.
Centrifugals are kinda like turbo's but with the exhaust half of the turbo. Boost is produced in a rising rate according to revs - at idle, sod all boost. At redline, full boost. Good for better 'control' of the car but not as fun I suppose. Sticking one on a Honda Civic 1.6 would probably make it last longer though.
P.D's generate higher charge temps, Centrifugal's don't make high boost at low revs.
Both are more inefficient than a turbo, even bearing in mind that a turbo has a ruddy great housing stuck in the exhaust.
Stick with a turbo in a 200sx unless you want medium power with no lag issues or you have tons of money to engineer something really special (read: more cost than to dump a T35 on a 200sx :)
Supercharging is basically on the same theory as turbo charging but the turbine on a supercharger is driven by a belt off of the engine rather than exhaust gas flow. This means the turbine is always spinning so you don't get the "off turbo" laziness prior to it spooling up that you have with a turbo. I don't think superchargers are generally as large in capacity as turbos so they don't give quite as much peak power but they have the advantage of no spool up and a nice smooth power delivery.
Having so much power on tap at idle must mean that pulling away in a FWD must be a scrabbly-event virtually everytime!!
Well we are blessed with pedals which have a range of movement, it's not just an on/off device ;)
RichSeal
11-09-2002, 08:53
Originally posted by Ant
Having so much power on tap at idle must mean that pulling away in a FWD must be a scrabbly-event virtually everytime!!
How true, but when its in a Jag XKR, its a wonderful thing :D
Supraman1
11-09-2002, 11:21
You can make big power with a supercharger, and HUGE torque. They're used extensively in drag racing because they work best on a large displacement engine at fairly low revs. 1000bhp blown small blocks are pretty common, right up to 6000bhp fuel cars.
As with turbos though, you have to use a blower that's optimised for your needs; there are three main designs (I can't remember the names though!), some are good for massive bottom end torque, others are better for driveability with good progressive midrange characteristics. The main drawback to them is that they are spinning all the time, which means they are inefficient - and the more power you want to make at full throttle, the bigger the blower needs to be, so you end up spinning an enormous extra weight of metal around even when you're idling.
They look cool when they're so big they stick out of the bonnet though :)
There are pros and cons to the S/C business as there are for tubbies, sizing is key, and it depends what you want from the engine. The new generation of supercharges use a compressor very similar to a turbo, and the belt from the engine is geared up to spin the compressor at a similar speed to a turbo.
The downside to this is boost controller, a tubby uses a wastegate to control turbine speed and hence boost by bypassing the turbine wheel once the correct boost is reached. With a mechanically driven s/c, to use the same system would need some sort of clutch arrangement onto the drive mechanism, which means a part that wears out in time.
I've never drove an s/c car, but seen a few in action, and was impressed with them. Car manufacturers seem to have moved more towards turbos though, VW for instance are going turbo as opposed to s/c. The turbo seems to be a simpler, more reliable setup, and also is more efficient, since it uses waste exhaust gasses to generate poer as opposed to mechanical drive from the engine.
Has anybody seen a Lancia Delta S4? Saw one once, Super and Turbo charged, now you're talking!
Does anyone know whether a 200 has been supercharged as well as turbocharged. eek:
Could this be an idea? or would it not be worth it?:)
Filmidget
11-09-2002, 11:52
Originally posted by andyf
Positive Displacements blow a constant boost through-out the revs so you have monster torque from basically idle. Tough on transmissions, great for things like Jaguar's and that.
Centrifugals are kinda like turbo's but with the exhaust half of the turbo. Boost is produced in a rising rate according to revs - at idle, sod all boost. At redline, full boost.
Thought the boost on positive displacements (rootes type etc) also rises through the rev range as the speed of the rotors rises in proportion to crank speed? Perhaps 'cos the centrifugal type have to be geared up so much, the revs have to significantly higher before it gets into it's efficient zone?
Always fancied a Mk1 MR2, especially the supercharged variety, which has a clutch that disengages the s/c when not required. With smaller pulley, they get some fantastic low-mid range torque for a revvy 1600 - sure I have seen 240ftlb. There is/was also a rare aftermarket sequential super/turbo charger (like Lancia) - the figure of 300bhp pops into my head... :)
A 200 with a s/c and a nice big turbo would be an awsome creation :D
Cheers, Phil
Filmidget
11-09-2002, 11:57
Further thought (can't you tell I'm busy at work) - The Volumex unit off the Lancia 2 litres (Monte Carlo - anything else?) would be about the right size wouldn't it?
Plenty of room down near the front of the engine bay isn't there? ;) Attach a pulley to the front of the crank... just need a mechanism to disengage the s/c when the turbo spools up - simple :eek: :D
Cheers, Phil (awaiting lunchtime medication)
Ok, how about this, If I was running a 250-290bhp 2***** ("If" is the big word:( ) and had a T28/T3 (which one would be better) what would happen if I added a Supercharger:eek: :eek:
1.) what type of BHP increase would there be?
2.) How much would it cost?
3.) How much petrol would it use (I am only saying this because I understand a supercharger comes onto to boost the second you put your foot down:eek: ;) :p )
4.) would it be worth all the money and trouble when you could just buy a turbo. how about a T88:confused: :eek: ;) :D :D
Answers on a post card:D :D
its not really possible (AFAIK) to use a supercharger as well as a turbocharger..
they both compress the mixture meaning you can compress the mixture by running the compressor off of
A) a belt (supercharger) or
B) a turbine propelled by exhaust gasses (turbo)..
What does AFAIK stand for:o :o
Filmidget
11-09-2002, 14:41
As I (and others) mentioned...
The supercharger operates until the turbo reaches a certain level of boost, and then disengages (so not using any power) while the turbo provides the 'more efficient' power utilising the exhaust gases. Guess it means you could use a bigger turbo without worrying about lag :)
Plus it would make nice whinie noise :)
A bit overkill probably though eh? :rolleyes:
Cheers, Phil
So it would not be worth to add a supercharger to a 2***** unless you have a massive turbo, which in the long run would cost you a fortune:(
Oh well, nice thought tho..
Might give it a try in a couple of years.:eek: But lets get back to earth, I have to buy a 200 first:o
You'd need some sort of sequential one-way valve arrangement. Else the supercharger would blow air back through the turbo at idle, and the turbo would blow air past the supercharger when your magic clutch stops turning it at higher revs.
Don't see any of us managing that with bits from B&Q and Halfords on a Sunday afternoon.
Filmidget
11-09-2002, 15:08
Originally posted by Alan
You'd need some sort of sequential one-way valve arrangement. Else the supercharger would blow air back through the turbo at idle, and the turbo would blow air past the supercharger when your magic clutch stops turning it at higher revs.
Don't see any of us managing that with bits from B&Q and Halfords on a Sunday afternoon.
Agreed... but you knew what I meant though :)
But it has been done. I think you lack ambition... though it might take Saturday as well as Sunday ;)
Cheers, Phil
What cars do you know that are supercharged and turbocharged.
Surely you could just follow their set up?
Filmidget
11-09-2002, 15:19
Well as mentioned Lancia had a go at it, and there is the Toyota conversion... and... er...
OK thats the only ones I can think of off the top of my head :rolleyes: :)
Try a web search?
Cheers, Phil
Lack ambition? You're probably right.
It's all I can do to bother washing my car, much less start any Hong Kong Phooey tuning borrocks.
:rolleyes:
Supraman1
11-09-2002, 15:47
Nobody bothers with it cos it's so expensive and heavy, plus there's more bits to go wrong which is never a good thing. You'd be better off putting that money into a NO2 setup, or an anti-lag system (as the current crop of WRC cars have).
You would need the saturday to pick up a couple of throttle bodies and central locking solenoids from the local scrappie, plus figure out how to wire that lot in to give the required gating between tubby and blower...
Then the Sunday to fit it all, and by sunday night be cruising in surely the worlds first superturbocharged SX;)
Anything is possible, just needs lots of patience imagination, and usually cash:(
Koenig Competition about 10 years ago was superturbo, with a clutch arrangement on the blower, works like a twist and go motorbike but in reverse, ie clutch in at low revs, out at high revs. Based on a Ferrari Testarossa, had 2 turbos, 1 blower and 1000 BHP :)
Delta S4 used a similar setup I believe. Can't think of any others, what did Mad Max have?:D
According to a search on the web. He has a Ford Falcon XB Hard top. The car was a 2 door coupe version and uses a 351 c.i. engine (what ever that is:confused: )
They also talk about a supercharger?
thats all I can find out:(
anyone else????????
With regards to the super+turbo charger viability, I'm sure there was a company that made a MKI Golf 1.8 that had a tubby and a supercharger on it derived from the G60 engine as I recall as it was at GTI International one year. I think they used the Supercharger as a constant source of boost and the tubby came in higher up the rev range for a little extra grunt? I think it may have been Awesome GTI store or someone????
Originally posted by Tim Simpson
What does AFAIK stand for:o :o
As Far As I Know:)
Papa Lazarou
12-09-2002, 00:37
Believe it or not there was a factory supercharged AND turbocharged Nissan March (Micra) sold in Japan in the late 80's and early 90's. Think they are quite sought after now by Micra enthusiasts.... I believe the supercharger becomes inactive on this car once the turbo comes in.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.9 Copyright © 2012 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.