respect thy RWD

[siliconslave]

ok so my s14 decided to remind me whose boss today, good thing too as i was proberbly getting too cockey with it!

decided to boot it past a guy on a straight bit of duel carrageway. Well not boot it, but wasn't taking it as easy as i should have in the wet, gave it a bit too much of the right foot and the back stepped out. :eek:

Everything went kinda slow mo, thought "pants" and "hit car or centeral reservation" and somehow instictively counter steered myself one way and the other to safty with a bit of the old tank slap. All between a rather threatening crub and a slightly confused looking red BMW- god damn was my heart going overtime!

think the beemer i was overtaking thought i was just showing off :D

[Tenman]

hehe, I also found out today that 245mm wide Kumho ecsta's are much fun in the wet...

the new shape MR2 who was chasing me backed off for some reason... back end really did step out so nice and slowly and controllably I just HAD to keep the slide going for a bit, amazed at the confidence I had in controlling it cos I was on quite a narrow country road at the time :D

I could say way way way ahead though so I knew I wasn't gonna hit anything coming the other way

[Columbo]

Not sure which is worse losing the back-end :wack: or fish-tailing on a wet road going forwards. :wack:

Remember "Real Men" go rear wheel drive. :nod:

[siliconslave]

was kinda interesting, only had the car for going on a month, and today is proberbly the third or fourth time i've driven it in the wet due to un-characteristic british summertime weather :)

[KevJ]

Not sure which is worse losing the back-end :wack: or fish-tailing on a wet road going forwards. :wack:

Remember "Real Men" go rear wheel drive. :nod:

If last night was anything to go by then I am going to say fish-tailing on a wet road going forwards! :wack:

Just after roundabout in second gear (obligatory 'curious about 200sx' mate in car!) started one way held throttle, very carefully backed off, got grip and applied more throttle only for the momentum to catch up and throw me the other way and for the whole process to repeat itself 4 times! And all this time I was getting faster (mate grabbed hand rail like we were gonna flip! :ghey: ) Only finished when I had to reach for 3rd which was the sanest thought I had!

[Dave_S]

I hate fishtailing ... :cry:

Dave

[Aitch]

I find the S14 very communicative and easy to correct in a fishtail situation :nod:

The MR2 I had previously with no LSD and the engine in the middle was far snappier in the wet. Great fun though. :D

[Tenman]

I find the S14 very communicative and easy to correct in a fishtail situation :nod:

The MR2 I had previously with no LSD and the engine in the middle was far snappier in the wet. Great fun though. :D


LOL, Aitch, considering your track record for disaster I really wouldn't tempt fate if I were you

[Aitch]

LOL, Aitch, considering your track record for disaster I really wouldn't tempt fate if I were you
Luckily, all my "incidents" have been minor. ;)

[Tenman]

waiting with eager anticipation for the next "Today I learnt the hard way" thread.

knowing you it'll involve 2 tons of cement, a 300ft high crane, a mad elephant and you'll still come out with a couple of bruises

[MattyGee]

hehe, I also found out today that 245mm wide Kumho ecsta's are much fun in the wet...

i know that feeling all too well :nod:, ive also got Khumo ecsta's all round on my r33 aloys - 255 wide tho for even more wet driving fear :eek: :wack:

[kirkster]

I'd had my car all of 24hrs before she showed me who was boss.....

I came off a roundabout with anti-slip surface on it in the rain quite well, only to be shown a hedge row infront of me at about 40mph :eek:

But she let me off that time, and quite happily steered into it.....

Respect thi 200, as it was in the beginning and always shall be tail happy :D

[king_j]

are they really that tail happy?
even in a straight line?

[Aitch]

are they really that tail happy?
even in a straight line?
Well I don't think they are :no:

They deserve respect, obviously, but I find they talk to you and let you know exactly what's going on :nod:

And when you know what's going on then it's :D :cool: :D :cool: :D :cool: :D :cool: :D all the way :nod:

[mikegsi]

time to throw the cat amongst the pigeons


if you had F/W/D cars, you'd know what power and control was all about!! :D :D






[SIZE=1](NO ONE WAS HARMED IN THE MAKING OF THIS REPLY!!!!!!)[SIZE=3]

[mav]

are they really that tail happy?
even in a straight line?

Give it a wellyfull and find out mate ;) :D

I go no LSD and mine can be a real bitch if she decides she aint gonna play.

[SM]

are they really that tail happy?
even in a straight line?

I find it sticks very well, and always wonder why people complain about it being this loose. It sticks as well as my underpowered armchair Merc, and much much better than my old Volvo's. I find I have to try to get the back end out, and I'm running 240-270BHP 12-15psi on standard Wheels/Tyres/Suspension. Maybe my balls are just too small :eek: but I certainly get on WOT often enough and in 2nd gear. I have been RWD cars now for 7 years and only ever fishtailed once, in the volvo, about 6-7 swings from one side to the other, and kept it on the black stuff just.

I have only had 1 moment that surprised me in the 200, and that was shortly after first running 15psi, out of a roundabout and round a sweeping left handed, upward, off camber bend, in 2nd gear, dual carrigeway overtaking a CTR on WOT in the wet ... and it stepped out, at least it caused the CTR to back off :smash: (On the Otley by-pass for you Yorkshire puddings :p)

All the other tail out moments have been planned/expected

[twinturboch]

If you have to 'try' to get it sideways, you are not going quite fast enough. If you go in with a few miles an hour more speed in should go anyway, then you just use the throttle to hold it. You don't need a LSD and you don't need mega power. Try driving a Morris 1000 in the wet on a roundabout, it's pure opposite lock. Turn in later and harder on a trailing throttle with more speed. And fishtailing sucks. :wack:

[Tenman]

its not bad and its easily controllable, just remember it is a RWD turbo charged car and you'll be OK, esp. in the wet be ready to catch it quick at around 3k rpm when on WOT.

And no thanks I don't wanna go back to FWD... there's nothing worse than trying to drive a FWD car thats too powerfull for its chassis, my old R5GTT was a fecking nightmare, was always trying to steer me into ditches. LOL, at least it had a turbo though and wasn't :ghey: N/A

[kirkster]

Note, I was talking about the car in the rain.

In the dry shes amazing :)

[Ripper]

I don't put my foot down in the wet AT ALL in the 200 any more.

The words 'lesson' 'learnt' and 'hardway' spring to mind.... :no:

[Ashworth]

are they really that tail happy?
even in a straight line?
Only when you boot a modded one in the wet!
Basically when you mod them, the otherwise smooth power delivery becomes a lot more twitchy....

[king_j]

so is there no mod to correct this, (for people who dont do drift days etc) like wider tyres, or a suspesion mod or something?

[Dunk]

The SX tail happy???

Well by modern standards yes, but compared with something like a MK1 RS 3.1 Capri then the 200 is about as tail happy as a fiesta...

As for fishtailing - in 120,000miles of driving she never once fishtailed on me - you guys might want some sliding lessons? The only thing that causes fishtailing is late reaction or over reaction to a slide, and not feathering the throttle as you dial on opposite lock.....

[Ashworth]

so is there no mod to correct this, (for people who dont do drift days etc) like wider tyres, or a suspesion mod or something?

This is a tricky one.

in the wet you really need skinny(ish) tires to cut throught the water and prevent aquaplaning. but in the dry its the opposite.

Alos in the dry wider tires only help in cornering not going forward (wheelspin).

[twinturboch]

My only power mod is an air filter and mine will spin it's wheels from 3000 straight up to the redline in 2nd if it's even greasy. I only bought this car cause I wanted to spend all day looking out of the side window anyway so I love it. My mates are always telling me to stop hanging it out as I go through traffic lights at junctions and stuff. :D :D

[Tenman]

This is a tricky one.

in the wet you really need skinny(ish) tires to cut throught the water and prevent aquaplaning. but in the dry its the opposite.

Alos in the dry wider tires only help in cornering not going forward (wheelspin).

Actually Wider tyres will help with wheelspin as well because there's more surface area of rubber on the road to get traction with

[Ashworth]

Actually Wider tyres will help with wheelspin as well because there's more surface area of rubber on the road to get traction with

I think the tyre contact patch for a wide wheel stops being front-to-back (good for foward traction) and turns more left-to-right hence a wider tyre will help cornering.

To answer you comment - yes you do get more surface area but you get less reaction force (Pressure = force / area, and the area has increased) and since Friction = Mju x Reaction the friction/unit area has reduced.

Basically tyre dynamics is a very complex thing so you cant just make up one rule like "wider is better" there is a lot to consider such as; wet or dry, contact patch shape, tread patterns, heat, dynamics, suspension). it isnt a 1D static problem so logic goes out of the window

[Tenman]

I certainly get better traction in the dry with the 245's I've got on now than I did with standard 205's, the 205's were Toyo which I KNOW are a hell of a good tyre and the 245's are Kumho ecsta's which I know are OK in the dry but leth..fun in the wet.

[Ashworth]

I certainly get better traction in the dry with the 245's I've got on now than I did with standard 205's, the 205's were Toyo which I KNOW are a hell of a good tyre and the 245's are Kumho ecsta's which I know are OK in the dry but leth..fun in the wet.

they are probalby shit in the wet due to the extra width. But you cant really go making sweeping tyre generalisations just based on two different tyre brands.

[Ashworth]

This is a good quote:
http://www.eng-tips.com/gviewthread.cfm/lev2/6/lev3/35/pid/68/qid/41

Tires should be as wide, as well as tall, as possible, to allow the largest possible footprint/contact patch to the ground as possible. The R*mu equation only holds good for the actual sliding condition; regular/before slide conditions actually quasi-stationary, since contact-patch (individual rubber blocks) are stationary relative to their nground counterpart area. Therefore, approx. and up to double the adhesion coeff. (mu) can be expected (non-sliding). Inbetween non-sliding and fully-skidding, the descibtor is the skid/slip-angle (phi), the angle between the zero-slip line of the tire, and the actual movement direction of the tire.

See also 'Rubber Science & Technology' and other, for further in-depth and newest research results.

Sincerely,

Soeren Algreen-Ussing, Denmark

[SM]

Seems like its only me and Dunc then then fell this way :confused:

The SX tail happy???

Well by modern standards yes, but compared with something like a MK1 RS 3.1 Capri then the 200 is about as tail happy as a fiesta...

As for fishtailing - in 120,000miles of driving she never once fishtailed on me - you guys might want some sliding lessons? The only thing that causes fishtailing is late reaction or over reaction to a slide, and not feathering the throttle as you dial on opposite lock.....

[Tenman]

Nope, never fishtailed mine, I used to fishtail my old beemer all the time..

[Ashworth]

Right this is my last comment on tyres:

from - http://www.whiteline.com.au/default.asp?page=/faqtyres01.htm

Tyre width, wider is better right?
Not always, it is a general misconception that wider is better. The object is to have as much tyre contact with the road as possible, but there is an optimum limit to this. On cars with anything other then a live axle suspension, such as McPherson at the front and multi-link at the rear on the S15, a wheel will have already have some negative static camber in it's standard form. This means that the weight of the vehicle is already not evenly spread over the width of the tyre, and is only further shifted towards one edge (usually inside) of the tyre as the suspension moves through its arc due to built-in camber curves. Wider tyre have other detrimental effects such as increased aquaplaning and friction (resistance) as well as increased steering feedback which may be good but up to a point.

It is also quite easy to "over tyre" a car depending on the wheels used. A tyres' width is designed by the manufacturer to work in with the wheel size, suspension geometry and vehicles weight. Increasing the width of the tyre will not necessarily increase the contact patch as the weight of the car is the same. The shape of the contact patch will however change under these circumstances, hopefully to the benefit of lateral (cornering) grip but only if they are fitted to the correct rim size.

This is particularly relevant to standard wheels where overly wide tyres will often handle worse than the original with the undersize wheel creating a balloon that easily walks and distorts though a spongy side wall. Properly matched wider and stickier tyres are a perfect match to a larger Whiteline Swaybars to maximise the extra load transferred to the drive wheels during roll.

Tyre width can also be a problem when the extra width grows out from the wheel hub face. This is one of the least understood but most common problems encountered when upgrading wheels and tyres with the most common symptom being the new tyres rubbing on the guards. Wheel offset is the real issue here but the wrong offset coupled with excessive width in the wrong direction becomes a nightmare on all fronts.

Again, fitting a larger Whiteline Swaybar can minimise body roll to provide a "band aid" solution for tyre rub problems.

[Tenman]

hehe, someone knows how to use [CTRL]+[C] and [CTRL]+[V]

[Ashworth]

hehe, someone knows how to use [CTRL]+[C] and [CTRL]+[V]

and how to trawl though thousands of google pages of crap to find some useful info.....

being an engineer working in for Ford. i sometimes get pissed of with this board when anything technical comes up. i dont claim to know everything - quite the opposite but i do try and show people where my opinion comes from....

rant over

[SM]

i dont claim to know everything - quite the opposite but i do try and show people where my opinion comes from....
Thats the best way, give your opinion and and idea of why you have formed it :thumbs: I also agree with this one :thumbs:

[Ashworth]

Thats the best way, give your opinion and and idea of why you have formed it :thumbs: I also agree with this one :thumbs:

one thing i do know about tyres and grip/width etc, is that its a whole hornets nest and is very very complicated. I'm sure the guys at Bridgestone F1 dont claim to know everything!

[AlexF]

After getting into my 200 (s14a) for the first time (yesterday), it took me under 1/2 hour of driving in the wet before I felt the telltale "back end going light" feeling on my favourite biking road :D

Backed off then, since it's pretty narrow and didn't fancy being towed out of the bushes. Good thing too, since there was a sh*tload of diesel spilt all over the road a few corners on :eek: Bloody van drivers :down:

The car feels very predictable though, which is great. Am sure I'm going to love this car :)

[Dunk]

being an engineer working in for Ford. i sometimes get pissed of with this board when anything technical comes up.


Okey-dokey matey

Explain these things then Mister Engineer

1) Torque (easy)

2) Compressor Maps and how you can change them

3) Why low port velocity can be a good thing

4) When is a live axle better than IRS?

5) How bore and stroke affects power characteristics

6) when might you want to induce a misfire?

Without recourse to Google or any other search engine..

:p :p :p :p :wack:

[JB]

Apart from the first day I had it, when I was still used to a succession of FWD cars with traction control and booted it without thinking (therefore it was driver error) I have never had the back of the car out without intending to. Don't think the 200 is tailhappy at all, though will agree that there isn't as much grip at the rear as some other RWD cars of similar power (running on standard tyres).

[Tenman]

me bad sorry, didn't mean to start a massive argument with a bit of piss taking..

[Ashworth]

Okey-dokey matey

Explain these things then Mister Engineer

Without recourse to Google or any other search engine..

:p :p :p :p :wack:

errr? i could probably explain torque a bit but in respect to what?
FYI, my speciality is statistics with a bit of engine knowledge. all the rest is what i'm interested in.

Some questions which have caused arguments in the past:
1. difference between power and torque (especially when people say things like some mod. gave them a noticable increase in power - err you mean torque)
2. Does increasing tyre width increse grip?
3. Is VTEC better than turbocharging?
4. The 911 is a good car :D
5. i'll think of more

[Ashworth]

By the way it really bugs me when people try to impress people on the board by saying blah blah i work for blah i am an engineer.
which is why my other post makes me sound like a right twat :wack:

[Dunk]

Nah - I'm just winding you up....


anyway, if you want to start an argument here, simply express an opinion about which is better - semi or fully synthetic oil.....

*ducks*

[Tenman]

ooooh Dunk, thats evil...

hmmm, could always start an S13 v S14 thread...

or... the ultimate.... Manual is quicker than automatic, discuss....

[Dunk]

ssssshhhhh

You'll get it locked....

The JB entity is lurking....

[Tenman]

ooops

/me gets his head down

[king_j]

yeah dont do that as all my threads so far have been locked :O(

so anyway most of you are saying unless its modded it wont go out without you making it do so, and even then its down to driving skill and experience.

[siliconslave]

it varys quite a bit from wet to dry and i assume with what tyres you have on. I would say from my limited experience on some avon things (not sure what i'm afraid) its fine in the dry, very sticky unless your being silly

in the wet however if your not respecting it it can turn around and bite you. this is proberbly not the case if your either:
-running decent rubber
-driveing sainly

and as people have said it does seem to tell you whats happening and responds quite well to your control

[yeager]

I like it in the wet when she slides... I never do it on purpose but if feel the backend going its just not right to stop it.

[Kiruji]

I've had mine for 2 and half weeks now, and it was tail happy - when I first had it, it was running totally standard except for induction kit and boost valve which was turned up a bit... Oh yeah, had the cheapest tyres in the world on it too... The first night I had it, I came off a roundabout in the pouring rain and the back slid out quite quickly, caught it easy enough, but it made my heart pound a bit... Was very progressive though, didn't snap.

Then I turned the boost up to 15psi and it would light the tyres if there was a hint of moisture in the air... :wack: The worst time it happened was in the rain on the M54, doing about 80 - booted it without thinking to get past a lorry, started sliding... That's some scary shit at that speed. Still, it's running standard boost with grippier tyres now, and it won't even wheelspin... :(

[yeager]

yeah dont do that as all my threads so far have been locked :O(

so anyway most of you are saying unless its modded it wont go out without you making it do so, and even then its down to driving skill and experience.

King, i'm going to sound a little harsh here, sorry. Your statement there is rather weak. Think about what you just said, it sounds a little like this;

"Will I get my girlfriend pregnant if we have sex?"

So... if you don't mod a 200SX the back end will never step out?

Consider...

Condition of the road, is it wet, is it a loose surface?
Condition of tyres, good tread, quality rubber?
Condition of shocks, are they the same since new?
Condition of subframe and suspension bushes.

And add...

Ability of driver
Type of manouver taking place
Is god watching?

And it's almost impossible to make a single statement like yours, common sense must prevail. I think I can unstick almost any back end of any car...

Plus you state that unless it's modded it's unlikely to loose traction unless you intend to do so. Well what if the modifications are to improve grip? Surely then it's more stable than a standard car.

Sorry to sound anal i'm just wondering if this is why your other threads have been closed.

[docwra]

The SX tail happy???

Well by modern standards yes, but compared with something like a MK1 RS 3.1 Capri then the 200 is about as tail happy as a fiesta...

As for fishtailing - in 120,000miles of driving she never once fishtailed on me - you guys might want some sliding lessons? The only thing that causes fishtailing is late reaction or over reaction to a slide, and not feathering the throttle as you dial on opposite lock.....

Its good to have you back you self righteous old bast ;) :D

Lost the job, or day off today was it?? ;) :p

[Dunk]

Its good to have you back you self righteous old bast ;) :D

Lost the job, or day off today was it?? ;) :p


Eeee-up chap

Ifangyooverrmuch

Neither - now 'work' from home, plus broadband = can't resist!!!!

:wack:

[king_j]

King, i'm going to sound a little harsh here, sorry. Your statement there is rather weak. Think about what you just said, it sounds a little like this;

"Will I get my girlfriend pregnant if we have sex?"

So... if you don't mod a 200SX the back end will never step out?

Consider...

Condition of the road, is it wet, is it a loose surface?
Condition of tyres, good tread, quality rubber?
Condition of shocks, are they the same since new?
Condition of subframe and suspension bushes.

And add...

Ability of driver
Type of manouver taking place
Is god watching?

And it's almost impossible to make a single statement like yours, common sense must prevail. I think I can unstick almost any back end of any car...

Plus you state that unless it's modded it's unlikely to loose traction unless you intend to do so. Well what if the modifications are to improve grip? Surely then it's more stable than a standard car.

Sorry to sound anal i'm just wondering if this is why your other threads have been closed.


quite possibly, and also the fact i dont have my 200 yet, and im asking loads of question that a few drives in one would soon answer for me.

so thank you all for your responses.

[yeager]

quite possibly, and also the fact i dont have my 200 yet, and im asking loads of question that a few drives in one would soon answer for me.

so thank you all for your responses.

Well if you want to make it to the next UKD1 round (17th September) and pay 20 quid to be a passenger, i'll happily take you out for a few laps to show you how sideways I can get one :)

[Hugh Janus]

are they really that tail happy?
even in a straight line?

until about three hours ago i would have said no, it had stepped out three times today, but nothing major but one the way home after the little incident i had earlier, even just going up a hill at no more than 40 it was losing traction for a second then gripping then losing traction again

totally agree with RESPECT THY RWD
:eek:

[yeager]

I also think anyone here new to RWD and the 200 should contact Declan and go on one of his handling days...

www.conedodgers.co.uk

[king_j]

right peeps im ona major mission to get my 200sx now, really sounds like fun (got my fwd turbo to go side ways then a 180 last week) so looking forward to some track days

so if ya see a good 200 sx s14a going for sale let me know.

so want one now.

[SM]

so if ya see a good 200 sx s14a going for sale let me know.

Andy's ? Other side of country but an absolute bargin, 23K on clock .. see sig

[king_j]

i agree this is a nice car but bitout of my budget, sorry.

[SM]

i agree this is a nice car but bitout of my budget, sorry.
What range is that then ?

[king_j]

hmm about the 6k range max, as i still ahve the insurance to pay off too.